OSAS beginning ?

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Eternally Grateful

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When people say they are "saved by the blood of Jesus", they often can't define what that means in prophecy. The way I understand it, if you claim to be "saved", yet you are still getting judged "according to your works" like the common atheist will, in danger of getting tossed in the fire, then you were never "saved" in the first place. How Gods "justice" is portrayed by many Christians towards non-believers, especially its portrayal by these "hell fire" preachers, is where the problem occurs, making his "judgement" look more like that of a Kangaroo court than anything.
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
 

Bible_Gazer

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Where does it say you have grace from God is forever.
I read in Galatians 5 you can lose it.
Galatians 5:4
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

So if you go back to works to be saved you forsaken true faith in Jesus.
so is rejecting the truth after having it, the saving grace is reversed ?


If you go back to the worldly life, your life is worse off. Would that be blaspheme ?
2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
 

Enoch111

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Yes, based on what his son would do (OT) or what the son did (NT)
God the Father saw the Lamb of God slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:18-20). The crucifixion of Christ was prophesied in Genesis and in many other OT Scriptures, particularly in the Psalms. And the name *JESUS* means God is our salvation.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Where does it say you have grace from God is forever.
I read in Galatians 5 you can lose it.
Galatians 5:4
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

So if you go back to works to be saved you forsaken true faith in Jesus.
so is rejecting the truth after having it, the saving grace is reversed ?


If you go back to the worldly life, your life is worse off. Would that be blaspheme ?
2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Then grace is not grace it can be earned and it must be of works

Paul said if it is of grace it is no longer works, otherwise grace is no longer grace

it can only be one or the other. not both
 

Bible_Gazer

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If a believer could lose the grace of God it would not be grace.

GRACE IS TOTALLY UNMERITED AND UNDESERVED LOVE, MERCY, AND LOVING KINDNESS.
where is that explained that way in the bible ?
grace has so many definitions
Galatians says you can lose grace, does it not ?
You can lose the love of God and his kindness and mercy and patience.
He has destroyed people for rejecting his grace if you put all those meaning to it.
He loved Adam and Eve didn't he, yet he caused death to come them for breaking his law.
His grace did not save them, they died.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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where is that explained that way in the bible ?
grace has so many definitions
Galatians says you can lose grace, does it not ?
You can lose the love of God and his kindness and mercy and patience.
He has destroyed people for rejecting his grace if you put all those meaning to it.
He loved Adam and Eve didn't he, yet he caused death to come them for breaking his law.
His grace did not save them, they died.
1. Grace by definition is unmerited favor. ie can not be earned.
2. It does not say they lost grace. it says they fell from it. They had grace in their hands, and before it saved them, they fell and went back to what they truly had faith in, the law.
3. He will destroy those who reject grace. Because in doing it, they reject him. Those trying to add works to grace. in effect reject true grace. and as Jesus said, on judgment day, when they profess all their works to him, he will say depart for he never knew them
4. Adam and eve were perfect. when they sinned. They fell from perfection. and required grace to be made alive again, as have every man woman and child since. So to use them as an example is not good. because as perfect people. they did not need grace. they EARNED their life. by the fact they were perfect in all things.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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The last statement you made: "The point still remains for one to be saved and continue to be saved he must continue to abide in the word, the doctrine, of Christ."

This is your opinion only and your inference only, not explicitly stated in these two verses at all. You must acknowledge that your answer cannot be that simplistic in reasoning!

In language of logic and inference you state:

If U = T + NA and if S = T + NA then S = U. You cannot make this into sound argument because you do not know if S(Saved) can commit (T) transgressions as an (U)unsaved person, and 2, that this Saved person does (NA) not abide in the teachings of Christ, ever or can ever. You want it to be true I do know that of course. So IF S=T + NA this is a if and not a FACT of scripture. You have to show all this in scripture and circular reasoning does not count.

Yes indeed, one major mark of abiding in Christ is the belief in his words and his teachings, and a belief that can ONLY be created in the heart by the SPIRIT, to act upon in life.

So in 2 John 1:9 it speaks of those that transgress and do not believe or walk in the teachings of Christ. I believe it is safe to say transgress means whoever sins or offends YHWH. And yes they of course, do not have YHWH IN their heart! And of course those that are saved have the SPIRIT that provides the spirit of his Son and thus HIS DOCTRINE and commandments and thus they are always abiding in Christ. Being saved means we are then all in one SPIRIT - we start as a new seed or new branch abiding in both Christ the tree, and YHWH, the planter of the tree. We are always abiding in Christ. It is not reversible as returning to sin is also, NOT reversible as an unbeliever. YHWH does not see our sin in Christ and that he is fashioning us in the image of Christ whilst we are on the tree of life.

Further, 'loss' of salvation is would seem is a no-return to Christ and the Father or a non-recovery act/state? I guess this is your take?

Is it then, by your reckoning, that if someone who thought (in mind and heart) was saved, abiding in Christ, and for months sinned exceedingly and did not repent until a year later. All the while the SPIRIT kept convicting this person and then finally genuine repentance received. Is this person then SINNING and NOT abiding for months as an unbeliever and some who is lost, too late to recover and is lost in a non- recoverable act/state? Did they sin as an unbeliever then? This would be a transgressions against YHWH and of Christ's words and doctrine, right? So he is lost or lost his salvation? Can you then measure salvation in terms of a line that must not be crossed? Does 2 John 1:9 really suggest you can lose you salvation and where does it say is the cut line?

You see abiding in Christ, is SPIRIT driven and not by human will or work driven. Abiding in Christ is conveyed as a lifestyle, as also in sinning or not. if not, as you seem to suggest, NOT ONE person can maintain their salvation under your interpretation.. Not one human alive can 'perfectly' abide in Christ by their own steam or works, as I sense this is your meaning.

No, the sound argument and premises are these, that:

U = T + NA and S not = T + NA therefore S not = U and therefore S is still SAVED not unsaved or lost. You cannot use some credentials of an unbeliever as in the verses you listed, and apply it so easily to an imperfect true believer that falls at times and is driven by the will of the SPIRIT that keeps them abiding in Christ.

If we used 2 John 1:9 solely as the basis for salvation we definitely would be still lost.

We are not saved by suddenly deciding not to sin or transgress or suddenly believe in the words of Christ ONE day.

And, WE DO NOT CONTINUE in salvation.

The grace of YHWH along with our genuine confession and repentance of sin and the belief in the gospel including our identification with Christ's baptism SAVES us, ONE day.

And, the SPIRIT continues IN US salvation, in sanctification to glorification.


Bless you,

APAK
It is not my opinion that salvation is CONDITIONAL. As long as one continues in the word of God he will be saved but falling away from the word leaves one lost. 2 John 1:9 applies to Christians that does not abide (present tense) in the doctrine of Christ, he will become lost, not of God.

The Bible shows that salvation is a process and not a single time one and done unconditional deal. (Genesis 6:8-9) Noah found grace in the eyes of God for he was an obedient man "Noah was a righteous man, and perfect in his generations: Noah walked with God". But for Noah to continue to find grace in the eyes of God required he continue to obey God and build the ark to the saving of his house, (Hebrews 11:7). Had Naoh disobeyed and not built the ark as commanded by God he would cease to be in God's grace and been lost with the rest of the wicked.

It is an obligation, responsibility upon the Christian to abide in Christ's word and not an obligation of God or the Holy Spirit. 1 Timothy 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."
 

Eternally Grateful

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if salvation is conditional

the cross is meaningless

the law is a fabrication of something which is not true

jesus is the most foolish person ever born of a woman, as he died for nothing.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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@Ernest T. Bass ...
and now for the context of 2 John 1:9 you forgot to consider.....that is of crucial importance when you try to persuade that a true believer can lose their salvation and based on irrelevant scripture.

John is speaking to believers, most probably new as most were at that time, to be alert to deceivers. As in verse 7..
He warns these believers that if they get deceived by these that 'run ahead' (verse 9) with an evil doctrine and they are persuaded and even invite them in, they can lose some of their rewards that are entitled to.....not their salvation

I say again....NOTHING about losing their SALVATION....

Note: your verse translation in 1 John is one of several...where 'transgression' in verse 9 can be called by the phrase 'run ahead', that I used...so therefore need to watchful and wise on the translation version you use.

Bless you,

APAK


John is addressing Christians when he writes "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."

Whosoever means any Christian that does not continue to abide (present tense) in Christ's doctrine hath not God. The phrase "hath not God" is a lost state. Hence those Christians that do not continue in Christ's doctrine do become lost no longer having God.

Both verbs "transgresseth" and "abideth" are present tense show an ongoing, sustained action. John is talking about apostates. An apostate is one whose position has changed, one who has fallen, going from a saved state (continuing to abide in Christ's doctrine) but changed, fallen to a lost state (continuing in transgressing against God).
 

Ernest T. Bass

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A genuinely converted believer cannot lose his salvation unless he totally rejects Christ and declares himself an atheist.

The person who believes that a converted believer (as apart from someone who has just a mere profession of Christianity), can be lost through sinful behaviour caused through the weakness of his flesh, does not believe in the finished work of Christ on the cross and so believes that Christ is just a partial Saviour and the work of Justification is not yet finished, but must be upheld by perfect observance of the moral law.

The Jews who were cast off, broken off from being God's elect (Romans 11) yet they believed in God (not atheists) but did not believe what God said about the Messiah therefore they did not believe Christ therefore rejected Christ.

The Christian can sin and not become lost AS LONG AS HE CONDITIONALLY REPENTS of his sins. Those that will not repent of their sins but instead continue in them, then Christ will not save them. As long as the Jews continued in their sin of unbelief they would not be saved. But those that would repent (as those Jews in Acts 2 that repented and were baptized) would be forgiven and saved/sins remitted. Chris's "finished work on the cross" does not, will not save the impenitent.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Salvation is conditional upon one having and keeping faith for the faithless will be lost. Romans 5:1-2 only those that conditional have and keep faith are justified and have access to grace by that faith. But the faithless are unjustified and have no access to grace as long as they remain in unbelief.
 

Eternally Grateful

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No one who truly has faith will
Lose faith

we lose faith when those we trust fail us

saying we can lose faith is saying God is not trustworthy and has failed us

as I have said many times people who think we can lose faith could never have tasted Gods faithfulness because if they have they never would think one would ever lose faith
 

Eternally Grateful

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Indeed, but I have found that this doesn't truly happen in this life. In the new heaven and earth to come, our sins surely won't be remembered though.
If god remembered my sins in this life

I could Never be saved

Jesus said it is finished (literally paid in full)

either he meant it or he did not
 

Enoch111

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Indeed, but I have found that this doesn't truly happen in this life. In the new heaven and earth to come, our sins surely won't be remembered though.
Actually when a person repents and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, his or her sins are not only remitted but blotted out. At the same time God imputes righteousness to that person.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you (Acts 3:19,20)

This corresponds to what we find in Romans 4:6-8

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
 
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Bible_Gazer

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Can your forgiveness be reversed ?

Matthew 18:21-35
Matthew 18:32-35
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
 

Bible_Gazer

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1. Grace by definition is unmerited favor. ie can not be earned.
2. It does not say they lost grace. it says they fell from it. They had grace in their hands, and before it saved them, they fell and went back to what they truly had faith in, the law.
3. He will destroy those who reject grace. Because in doing it, they reject him. Those trying to add works to grace. in effect reject true grace. and as Jesus said, on judgment day, when they profess all their works to him, he will say depart for he never knew them
4. Adam and eve were perfect. when they sinned. They fell from perfection. and required grace to be made alive again, as have every man woman and child since. So to use them as an example is not good. because as perfect people. they did not need grace. they EARNED their life. by the fact they were perfect in all things.
Did Adam and Eve had favor with God, they lost part of that favor, they had to get that favor back.
A perfect person will always need grace from God to live.
Its by God everything lives. Some are short, some are eternal.
Adam and Eve didn't earn their life, they had it, it was given to them at the beginning.
They lost grace for eternal life.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Did Adam and Eve had favor with God, they lost part of that favor, they had to get that favor back.
A perfect person will always need grace from God to live.
Its by God everything lives. Some are short, some are eternal.
Adam and Eve didn't earn their life, they had it, it was given to them at the beginning.
They lost grace for eternal life.
No

Adam and Eve were perfect, they walked in unison with God, up until the time they sinned

at that time, they required favor from God in order to even be granted access to him

That’s why God killed an animal and covered them. So their true self did not show

the ark of the covenant has the same symbology, all god had against man, that convicted men as sinners, covered by the blood of the animal which allowed God to give favor to the sinner