1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured OSAS beginning ?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Bible_Gazer, Mar 3, 2020.

  1. Dcopymope

    Dcopymope Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,443
    Likes Received:
    754
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Blotting out your ability to sin is what I meant. You are still what you have always been, as of right now, the blood of Jesus just put a lid on it.
     
    mjrhealth likes this.
  2. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,929
    Likes Received:
    746
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Ok yes I agree with you here glorified
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
    mailmandan likes this.
  3. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,661
    Likes Received:
    928
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    it says fallen from Grace ..God grace will always be there waiting for us to come back, Grace is for the lost also they just dont realize it grace is the divine favor of God . when we dont get took out of the life by close call. that is NOT luck or mer chance
     
  4. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,661
    Likes Received:
    928
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    ya know God extended Grace twice to cain .once he offered it the 2nd time when he placed him in the lAND OF nOD
     
  5. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,065
    Likes Received:
    957
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    New Zealand
    The Scripture is quite clear that we should turn away from the works of the flesh. If we don't, we are not proving that we have genuine faith in Christ. That's what James is talking about.
     
  6. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,992
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Look, sorry Ernest I think you did not understand my responses...maybe you need to reread them and then you could have saved time and writing as you did here.. I think we are not connecting for some unknown reason...

    Ok, let me write the entire passage so we can both go through this for the last time. It is addressed to a Christian WOMAN..this is important to know and understand the CONTEXT as women can sometimes be easily be swayed without spiritual support or a spouse....into compromising their beliefs by deceivers...

    THE KJV.....

    (2Jn 1:1) The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
    (2Jn 1:2) For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
    (2Jn 1:3) Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
    (2Jn 1:4) I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
    (2Jn 1:5) And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
    (2Jn 1:6) And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
    (2Jn 1:7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    (2Jn 1:8) Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
    (2Jn 1:9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    (2Jn 1:10) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

    (2Jn 1:11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    1. The audience is a Christian woman...(verses 1-6). It is understood she is a Christian that has the doctrine of Christ and is abiding in it.
    3. He is warning her not to be deceived by, and invite false teachings into her home or wish evil people well, and God be with them. This evil person does not have God with him at all, as verse 9 says.
    4. If she wishes this evil person, 'God be with him' (verse 11), she shall lose her FULL REWARD at her salvation..NOT that she loses SALVATION.
    3. Verses 9 and 10 are to be read as one passage TOGETHER.....He is saying that these deceivers come with false doctrine, they do not have the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST and therefore these deceivers DO NOT ABIDE......BUT this woman does

    .....he is not warning this woman she is not abiding in the doctrine of Christ as she is a Christian already That would be nonsense.. The warning is that she can compromise her abidance in Christ's teaching...

    These verses have ZERO to do with this Christian woman losing her salvation.

    I think you might believe that if this woman is deceived and greets this person, by believing God is with him, she herself is now a deceiver and therefore loses her salvation.

    With this type of thinking you yourself may then be in jeopardy of losing your salvation with some false doctrines you have adopted and hidden away, even though you still are abiding and have the doctrines of Christ. You might want to do some soul searching yourself before accusing this woman she would become lost, based on a short-sighted reading of this scripture.

    I think I've beaten this passage to death.


    In Love,

    APAK
     
  7. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,992
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Ernest, IMO I think you are confusing the point of Justification after Baptism and the indwelling of the Spirit (saved point of no return to old self) with then the ongoing sanctification to glorification. I think you are not sure if you are justified in Christ today and therefore saved. Again IMO

    And then bringing in the OT and Genesis for your support really confused the issue. The grace of God given to salvation in the OT is not exactly the same as the grace given in the NT with Christ....you know the difference don't you?

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
  8. Bible_Gazer

    Bible_Gazer Active Member

    Messages:
    368
    Likes Received:
    63
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    What if you become lukewarm ? Revelation 3:16-17
    He is talking to his church.
    are you gonna be saved in that condition or even go to heaven like that ?
     
  9. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    404
    The Bible does not speak of an indwelling of the Holy Spirit that unconditionally guarantees the Christian salvation.

    God's grace is the same OT and NT. In order to receive grace and continue in grace conditionally requires continued obedience to God's will on the part of man. The Christian that turns from God and no longer obeys will have received the grace of God in vain, 2 Corinthians 6:1.

    God's grace is 100% conditional. If grace were totally unconditional then every one (Universalism) would be saved Titus 2:11.

    One must CONDITIONALLY have faith to be saved. One has faith by choice and one can cast aside that faith by that same volition.
     
  10. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    404
    Because salvation is CONDITIONAL upon repentance. The impenitent will be lost Romans 2:4-5. If the Christian will not confess, repent of his sins and quits walking in the light (1 John 1:7-10) he will become lost. God does not forgive those that will not repent.
     
  11. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    404
    2 John 1:9 is talking about apostates..apostasy. The Greek word for apostate means one who has moved away from his place: What is Apostasy? Bible Meaning and Definition

    John is warning about becoming an apostate in moving from one place (saved - abiding in Christ's doctrine) to a different place (lost - abiding in sin).

    If OSAS or eternal security or whatever one wants to call it were true, then there could be no such thing as an apostate, no such thing as falling. But since there is such a thing as apostasy, falling therefore OSAS cannot be true.

    Warnings as in 2 John 1:9; 1 John 2:24 are useless, nonsensical if it were impossible for the Christian to become lost.
     
  12. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,992
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Stop adding words into my mouth Ernest....go back and read if I ever said grace is NOT conditional or even if I ever mentioned grace as a subject of discussion with you.

    So for last time, and I mean it, I never said grace is not conditional as you never posed this question to me until now to respond to it. Although my reason for it being conditional is far different than yours. My version of God's condition of grace under Christ is bestowed on others provided they know the message in some manner of man's salvation, by confessing, repenting and being baptized. This is the obedience to YHWH and his will. These are the conditions else you are not getting this all important grace to salvation at all, and therefore cannot be justified and righteous to continue to do his will.

    Your definition on the other hand is all about an indescribable, not continuing in obedience and the like in faith..that is NOT scriptural as you describe it.
    I would suggest you read what grace means in scripture without parrotting verses with the word in it.

    Ernest...let's agree we have wide differing view on this subject and cease this back and forth concerning salvation and what it entails - grace, faith and other ingredients...and yes of course obedience as you would agree..

    No more responses please on this subject as you are so confusing to me even in attempting to present your views on this subject let alone how to respond back to you as you keep going off on a word or two I might have said..and then you make that your primary subject for you next response..as you did this time around...you are a moving target audience to me that cannot complete your first argument or obstacle fully...

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  13. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    404
    I am not adding words to your mouth but pointing out:
    1) salvation is conditional and as long as one CONTINUES to meet the condition (faithful obedience) one continues to be saved. One quits meeting the condition he becomes lost.
    2) 2 John 1:9 shows that the Christian can become an apostate, meaning the Christian can quit meeting the necessary condition (faithful obedience) to be saved thereby become lost.
    3) if one quite meeting the condition he loses the promise of salvation not just a loss of rewards.
     
  14. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,992
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I see you are moving the goal posts again and even hiding behind the goal again. And stop your lying to me, when anyone can review your writing in this public forum for themselves.

    You are a confused man Ernest as you cannot even articulate was you claim here. And I for one will not reattempt to reengage is what you mean in the the verses again as I've been over them a couple of times already....and then you have the audacity to label others I see, and most probably myself, as a Calvinist, which I am not at all.

    Do you understand what enough already means? If you want let's discuss another completely different subject sometime in the future...?

    APAK
     
  15. Getitright

    Getitright Active Member

    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    46
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No, it hasn't been. It came into the church around the time of Augustine. Prior to that the Church Fathers fought against it. Augustine was a Manichean, a form of Gnosticism, before he became a Christian. He wrote of Fatalism. Fatalism was a doctrine that was held by some Gnostic groups that attributed everything to fate. Basically, it held that all things were fated and nothing man could do could change that. Augustine essentially kept the doctrine but replaced fate with God. Instead of all things being determined by fate, he said all things were determined by God. However, this is not the teaching we see for at least the first 300 years of Church history.
     
  16. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,065
    Likes Received:
    957
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    New Zealand
    Repentance is a one-time action where one totally changes his direction from rebelling against Christ to loving and being fully committed to Him as Saviour and Lord. Confession of sin according to 1 John 1:9 is the evidence of true repentance. Repentance is not trying to defeat sinful habit patterns in one's own strength. That leads to self-righteousness which is hateful to God and does not lead to pleasing or being acceptable to God at all.

    Repentance is the act of agreeing with God about sin and leads to a hatred of sin, especially in one's self. Self-righteousness leads to pride, and judgmental attitudes toward others who don't appear to come up to one's own religious standards.
     
  17. Bible_Gazer

    Bible_Gazer Active Member

    Messages:
    368
    Likes Received:
    63
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    So does OSAS think repenting is not required anymore after the first repentance to be saved ?
     
  18. Bible_Gazer

    Bible_Gazer Active Member

    Messages:
    368
    Likes Received:
    63
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    What water are we suppose to drink to have everlasting life ?
    Did the OT have it ?
     
  19. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

    Messages:
    243
    Likes Received:
    224
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." 14 - "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."

    Jeremiah 2:13 - "For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns—broken cisterns that can hold no water."

    Jeremiah 17:13 - O Lord, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. "Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the Lord, The fountain of living waters."

    Isaiah 12:3 - With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation.
     
    APAK and Eternally Grateful like this.
  20. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,929
    Likes Received:
    746
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    He spoke of the condition of the church

    not individuals

    salvation is not in question,

    the churches effectiveness on earth is
     
    mailmandan and APAK like this.
Loading...