Question on Jesus' Ministry timing

[Bobby Jo]

Looks like you are stuck on your own view of all this, so there is no point me continuing the exchange with you. Bye.

Scripture and History are NOT my own view. They're independent and verifiable. But if Scripture and History offend you, then PLEASE DON'T LOOK. It may cause unforetold perturbations in the universe if they are TRUE, so PLEASE believe the lies.



To All,

When "Christianity" means "STUPIDITY", then what value is it? Is GOD a LIAR that we shouldn't look behind the "green curtain"? Will HIS DECEIT be revealed for ALL TO SEE? Is THAT the GOD which we serve? -- Or are we simply evaluating the LIES of the church, -- and GOD IS TRUE, though every man be a liar?

I don't SERVE a "church". I SERVE GOD. And if that means criticizing the "church", then is it any less than what Jesus encountered in HIS Ministry?


What a sad statement for "christianity".
Bobby Jo

 

[Jay Ross]

I know it is confusing, but Romans 11 has nothing to do with Daniel 8's 2,300 day prophecy. Besides, you have 2,300 "years" when Daniel 8 is all about Greece, before Rome conquered them and came into power. The 2,300 days is stated as "evenings and mornings," and just as in Genesis 1, evenings and mornings was a 1 day period, 24 hours, just under 7 years. That is why evenings and mornings was specified to show these are as they are written, and can't be turned into prophetic years. The time of the end was the end of Grecian rule over the world. The "little horn" of Daniel 8 is not the same "little horn" of Daniel 7. But they do show paradigms of three different 7 year periods. What you mentioned in Romans 11 is the last paradigm of the 7 year Great Tribulation when all of Israel will be saved. You are erroneously pulling aspects of different prophecies and combining them willy-nilly and even changing 7 years to 2300 years. Oy vey!

Daniel 8's period of 2300 literal days (6.3 years) is from 167 BC. to 160 BC (Jewish revolt) when in the middle of that period, just before 164 BC when Antiochus Ephiphanes IV died, he slaughtered a pig on the altar in the Jewish temple in honor of Zeus, defiling it. It was in the middle of the Maccebean revolt. Jacob Maccabees cleansed the temple.

CL, we have had this conversation previously where you believe that your understanding is correct. The question you must honestly answer for yourself is for how long has God's Sanctuary and earthly hosts been trampled by the Heathen Nations? Was it for only 2,300 days as you claim or is it still occurring at this present time some 2,300 or so years after it first began?

You claim and act as if you are a teacher, but the truth of the matter is that you do not recognize God truth as contained in the scriptures or understand God's End Time Prophecies.

The Maccabees incident that you have referenced happened around 100 years after the trampling of the Temple and God's hosts began, and it is still occurring today as history and the news reporting of today's events concerning the Israelite people clearly show inside and outside of the Land of Canaan.

I am not ROFL but the spirit is causing me to cry at the ignorance you are presenting as a so called teacher of God's word.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Scripture and History are NOT my own view. They're independent and verifiable. But if Scripture and History offend you, then PLEASE DON'T LOOK. It may cause unforetold perturbations in the universe if they are TRUE, so PLEASE believe the lies.
When I was an elder of my church, I was part of a team of mature, godly men who kept me on the straight and narrow and they did not hesitate to correct me if they felt that I had departed from the truth of Scripture, or that the way I preached might have been difficult for the people to accept. It kept me with a teachable attitude because I am aware, according to the Scripture (1 Corinthians 13:9), that we have just a partial knowledge and if we are not part of a support structure, we can be prone to error.

Most pseudo-christian cults such as Mormonism, JWs, Christian Science, started off with a person with a "new revelation" and who was not teachable but believed that "God had spoken to me so I am not subject to any man's correction".

Your attitude to the church is not new. You are just repeating the sentiments of Joseph Smith who became disillusioned with the church and decided to start his own, even writing his own "bible", the book of Mormon.

I am an author of several ministry books. When I do my final draft, I submit it to a trusted mentor who is mature and highly experienced in ministry and in the Scriptures to look it over and give me suggestions on how to improve the layout, grammar, punctuation, and to correct any doctrinal errors. Once he has done that and I publish the book, he is able to use it for the large numbers of believers on his mailing list right around the world.

If you are saying that your view is totally correct and any contrary view is total hogwash (which is what you are saying), then I would not have any confidence in what you are proposing, because it does not appear that you are prepared to have your views properly validated by those who are mature and experienced in the Word and in ministry.

If a person says, "I am right, and what I am saying is totally Scriptural, and I don't need to be corrected in any way", then my heresy detector goes "Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!"


To All,

When "Christianity" means "STUPIDITY", then what value is it? Is GOD a LIAR that we shouldn't look behind the "green curtain"? Will HIS DECEIT be revealed for ALL TO SEE? Is THAT the GOD which we serve? -- Or are we simply evaluating the LIES of the church, -- and GOD IS TRUE, though every man be a liar?

I don't SERVE a "church". I SERVE GOD. And if that means criticizing the "church", then is it any less than what Jesus encountered in HIS Ministry?


What a sad statement for "christianity".
Bobby Jo

 

[Paul Christensen]

CL, we have had this conversation previously where you believe that your understanding is correct. The question you must honestly answer for yourself is for how long has God's Sanctuary and earthly hosts been trampled by the Heathen Nations? Was it for only 2,300 days as you claim or is it still occurring at this present time some 2,300 or so years after it first began?

You claim and act as if you are a teacher, but the truth of the matter is that you do not recognize God truth as contained in the scriptures or understand God's End Time Prophecies.

The Maccabees incident that you have referenced happened around 100 years after the trampling of the Temple and God's hosts began, and it is still occurring today as history and the news reporting of today's events concerning the Israelite people clearly show inside and outside of the Land of Canaan.

I am not ROFL but the spirit is causing me to cry at the ignorance you are presenting as a so called teacher of God's word.

It is true that the prophecies that were fulfilled concerning Christ did have a timeline, but we can't calculate the 70 weeks of years in Daniel's prophecy according to our Gregorian calendar, which did not exist in his time. Also we have to calculate by the calendar that Daniel had available to him, and leap years had to be taken into account as well. We don't knew whether in the original calendar, a week actually had seven days, and that there were always four weeks in a month.

I viewed both Dave Hunt and John MacArthur's messages on prophecy in the Bible, and one of them (maybe both) showed how the correct calculations from a particular date stated in either the book of Nehemiah the entry of Jesus into Jerusalem was calculated right down to the very date stated when Jesus actually entered Jerusalem.

But we don't have any timeline stated for the church age after Pentecost. It appears to be open-ended, and so the exact dates of the various end-time events leading up to the second coming of Christ can't be calculated. What complicates matters is that no one except the Father knows when Jesus is coming back. But we know that certain events have to happen first, including the return of the Jews to their homeland. No one would have believed that the prophecy would be fulfilled until 1948 when Israel was confirmed as a nation.

What Jesus was quite clear about was that we just get on with doing the will of God for our lives and ministry, and if we fall off the perch before the end time, then we won't have to worry, and all we have to do is to wait until "the dead in Christ will arise first".

I am pre-trib in my theology because I believe what Paul says in 1 and 2 Thessalonians. Also, Jesus did say that when the end comes, two will be in a field, and two in a bed, and one will be taken and the other left. If all the believers still alive are on earth when Jesus comes, they won't be taken anywhere, but will be here to welcome Jesus when He comes. If that is so, the statement "one will be taken and the other left" will be meaningless. Where will the one taken be taken to? The only sensible answer to that question would be that there will be a rapture of all believers before the end time events gather pace and momentum. Then it will be true that two people working in a field, and one will suddenly disappear; and two will be in a bed together, and one will wake to find that the other will no longer be there. That definitely speaks of the rapture of the believers for me.

I don't really think that the post-trib people can satisfactorily answer Paul's teaching in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, or Jesus's statement about two being there and one taken and the other left. All they can do is to fudge around them and quote a whole lot of other random verses to try and prove their opinion.

My final point is that I heard a sound Bible teacher say that the characteristic of heretics is that they tend to abuse those who don't agree with them. Those who have ears to hear...

 

[Bobby Jo]

... it does not appear that you are prepared to have your views properly validated by those who are mature and experienced in the Word and in ministry. ...

Phhhhhhhhhh. YOU my dear friend, are too afraid to even look at TWO SIMPLE ASPECTS of history to either validate or dispute what Scripture provides, and what History documents. So don't blame me for not "convincing you". You are like so many in the so called "ministry" whose minds are made up, and refuse to be "confused" by the FACTS.

In fact my own "pastor" (small "p") LIED to get out of a meeting he had agreed to; and another "pastor" (small "p") LIED about TWICE about reviewing the veracity of Scripture and History versus the distortions/contortions of the commentators. -- It's no different than what Jesus encountered, and in my opinion the Sadducees & Pharisees were more righteous than today's "ministers/pastors/liars".


So FIND: A DUAL MONARCHY in Cyrus' Empire; and Alexanders FIVE GENERALS, which endured for 42 years. And while your finding things, FIND A MIRROR!
Bobby Jo

 

[Paul Christensen]

Phhhhhhhhhh. YOU my dear friend, are too afraid to even look at TWO SIMPLE ASPECTS of history to either validate or dispute what Scripture provides, and what History documents. So don't blame me for not "convincing you". You are like so many in the so called "ministry" whose minds are made up, and refuse to be "confused" by the FACTS.

In fact my own "pastor" (small "p") LIED to get out of a meeting he had agreed to; and another "pastor" (small "p") LIED about TWICE about reviewing the veracity of Scripture and History versus the distortions/contortions of the commentators. -- It's no different than what Jesus encountered, and in my opinion the Sadducees & Pharisees were more righteous than today's "ministers/pastors/liars".


So FIND: A DUAL MONARCH in Cyrus' Empire; and Alexanders FIVE GENERALS, which endured for 42 years. And while your finding things, FIND A MIRROR!
Bobby Jo

It is an established fact that a person deceived by false doctrine resorts to abusing those who disagree with him. Those who know that their doctrine is sound according to Scripture never feel the need to abuse and accuse others who have an alternate view.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... Jesus did say that when the end comes, two will be in a field, and two in a bed, and one will be taken and the other left. ...

... and he said regarding the one who was "taken", -- there the eagles (vultures) would be gathered. So if you want you dead body being picked over by vultures, then take the mark of the beast. -- Because GOD removes the wicked, NOT THE RIGHTEOUS.

Bobby Jo

 

[Paul Christensen]

... and he said regarding the one who was "taken", -- there the eagles (vultures) would be gathered. So if you want you dead body being picked over by vultures, then take the mark of the beast. -- Because GOD removes the wicked, NOT THE RIGHTEOUS.

Bobby Jo

I looked up the context, and you could very well be right about that!

 

[Bobby Jo]

It is an established fact that a person deceived by false doctrine resorts to abusing those who disagree with him. ....

So STOP your accusations, and FIND THE TRUTH of the matter. Scripture and History don't LIE, but men do.

Whew,
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

I looked up the context, and you could very well be right about that!

Rev. 20 says the "dead" are not raised until the thousand years are ended, -- and then those who are alive and remain on earth shall ascend (be "raptured") to the New Jerusalem.

Thanks,
Bobby Jo

 

[Paul Christensen]

Rev. 20 says the "dead" are not raised until the thousand years are ended, -- and then those who are alive and remain on earth shall ascend to the New Jerusalem.

Thanks,
Bobby Jo

That is the popular view of post-tribs. But it still doesn't provide a satisfactory answer to what Paul told the Thessalonians about being caught up and meeting the Lord in the air.

 

[Bobby Jo]

That is the popular view of post-tribs.

This is deceptive. "Post-Trib" presumes the era approximate to the end of the tribulation. Rev. 20 DEMANDS that the "rapture" is at the END of the Millennial Kingdom, -- a THOUSAND YEARS LATER.

But it still doesn't provide a satisfactory answer to what Paul told the Thessalonians about being caught up and meeting the Lord in the air.

1 Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.
​

Donald Trump was born in NYC; graduated from HS in NYC; ran his business in NYC; was elected President while a resident of NYC; and will be buried in NYC. And it all happened within ONE YEAR!

And so too Jesus will return; the dead will rise; and then the rapture; and then the New Jerusalem. ALL IN ONE YEAR!


What?!?
Bobby Jo

 

[Paul Christensen]

This is deceptive. "Post-Trib" presumes the era approximate to the end of the tribulation. Rev. 20 DEMANDS that the "rapture" is at the END of the Millennial Kingdom, -- a THOUSAND YEARS LATER.

1 Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.
​

Donald Trump was born in NYC; graduated from HS in NYC; ran his business in NYC; was elected President while a resident of NYC; and will be buried in NYC. And it all happened within ONE YEAR!

And so too Jesus will return; the dead will rise; and then the rapture; and then the New Jerusalem. ALL IN ONE YEAR!


What?!?
Bobby Jo

Your last two paragraphs don't make sense!

 

[CharismaticLady]

The Maccabees incident that you have referenced happened around 100 years after the trampling of the Temple and God's hosts began, and it is still occurring today as history and the news reporting of today's events concerning the Israelite people clearly show inside and outside of the Land of Canaan.

100 years? What dates?

 

[Bobby Jo]

Your last two paragraphs don't make sense!

Sarcasm. The "christian" community thinks 1 Thess 4 is chronologically compact. And if so, then Trump's birth to death is also chronologically compact. -- They're BOTH within a YEAR, which is CRAZY.

In fact 1 Thess. 4 covers a thousand years; and Trump's life covers ~80 years. They're just sequences, -- not timelines.


Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

@Paul Christensen

So STOP your accusations, and FIND THE TRUTH of the matter. Scripture and History don't LIE, but men do.
Whew,
Bobby Jo

Please let me know when you've researched the two aspects which I've presented, and then provided an equivalent citation for the second aspect. -- I'd be interested if you find EXACTLY what I've asserted, versus the misrepresentations/misinformation (lies) of the commentators.

Thanks,
Bobby Jo

 

[Paul Christensen]

Sarcasm. The "christian" community thinks 1 Thess 4 is chronologically compact. And if so, then Trump's birth to death is also chronologically compact. -- They're BOTH within a YEAR, which is CRAZY.

In fact 1 Thess. 4 covers a thousand years; and Trump's life covers ~80 years. They're just sequences, -- not timelines.


Bobby Jo

I looked up 1 Thess 4 and I don't see 1000 years mentioned.

 

[Paul Christensen]

@Paul Christensen


Please let me know when you've researched the two aspects which I've presented, and then provided an equivalent citation for the second aspect. -- I'd be interested if you find EXACTLY what I've asserted, versus the misrepresentations/misinformation (lies) of the commentators.

Thanks,
Bobby Jo

I don't understand. There are many commentators. Which ones do you think are telling lies?

 

[Bobby Jo]

I looked up 1 Thess 4 and I don't see 1000 years mentioned.

... and you won't find 80 years mentioned in the "Trump sequence". But they're both there, -- so long as you understand that the events are simply a SEQUENCE, not a condensed chronology.

But if you assume (and you know what they say about "assume") that the 1 Thess . 4 sequence has chronological proximity, then you certainly "assume".

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

I don't understand. There are many commentators. Which ones do you think are telling lies?

When Walvoord wrote his book, "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation", he completely bypassed the commentators. Instead he went DIRECTLY to the Scholars, because they are the SOURCE of veracity, -- but a commentator is simply someone who has a "thought".

And so where Montgomery, Young, Keil, & Kliefoth (and even Newton, but wasn't cited by Walvoord) had their Scripturally and/or Historically based insights, Walvoord COMPLETELY IGNORED THEIR OBSERVATIONS. So NOW Walvoord is nothing more than a commentator, and he knows that his conclusions DEFY SCRIPTURE, but it's the BEST LIE he can provide, because he can't resolve the Scholar's clues, -- and neither could the Scholars.

But if we see the clues in a "modern" context (Ref. the angel in 12:4 & 9), the solutions are readily apparent. -- But the commentators (and Walvoord) didn't have sufficient "hind-sight", so they could ONLY present their BEST LIES.

And all I'm asking from you, is to provide the Cyrus DUAL MONARCHY (Two Horns) which never existed; and validate Alexander's FIVE GENERALS which endured for 42 years.


You trust the lying commentators over History, and I trust History over the lying commentators. So between the two of us, who has more veracity?
Bobby Jo