Paul Christensen
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Question on Jesus' Ministry timing
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quietthinker
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Righty, the stoning of Stephan by the Jews 3.5 yrs after the crucifixion in 34 AD marked the end of the 70 week prophecy. It was the time the angel said was determined upon his people (the Jews). It marked the end of their time as a nation being God's people was up. The word 'determined' is used vs 24.
Just to reiterate, using the day for a year principle of interpreting prophetic time we have 70 weeks of years; in other words 490 literal years.
As you recall, the empires had changed; Daniel was not now in the Court of the Babylonians but in the Court of Darius the Mede. Daniel had been reading the prophetic words of Jeremiah (Daniel 9:2) re the captivity they were then in which was nearing its completion.
In Dan. 9:20 Daniel was praying confessing his sin and the sin of his people. It was in answer to his supplications that the angel came and told him how much time was determined his people (Jews). The starting point of this time was to be the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem which had been destroyed by the Babylonians. That decree was given by Cyrus in 457 BC (Ezra 7:1-27) If we now go forward 490 years from 457 BC we arrive at AD 34. Vs 24 is a summary of the whole prophecy. The last week or 7 years is divided into two; 3.5 yrs of the ministry of Jesus to the Jews till they killed him and the last 3.5 yrs was ministry to the Jews by the disciples.
quietthinker
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Your fudge knows no end BJ....you have long supported it by your postsI appreciate your acknowledgement.It's a start toward integrity!
You assume the seventy are sevens, but they're not. Per Young, Keil, & Kliefoth (per Walvoord) the diction is NOT in the usual Concise Feminine Gender text, -- it's in the unusual INCONCISE Masculine Gender text, which is ONLY found in the 9th Chapter of Daniel, and nowhere else in Scripture. (I tell people it's analogous to going for a ride in a "cool car", where the invited grabs his hat, coat, scarf, & gloves. -- It's not a concise depressed thermal gradient. It's the inconcise "slang".)
So the FIRST thing we know is that the 70 ≠ 490. And of course, 9:2 says "years" and that we can find the confirmation "in the books" -- which is NOT the Book of Jeremiah, but instead using the "perceived" Solomon Wisdom (1 Kings 3) the validation is in the Prophetic Psalms, -- all in compliance with the angel's instructions in 12:4 & 9.
And although you DID acknowledge one mistake, I don't think you're up to correcting your "70 week" mistake.
Bobby Jo
Hello
If we look at the five prophecies given in Dan 9:25-27 we can observe that they are chronologically ordered: - so that we have
First prophecy.
Daniel 9:24, began in 494 BC from my understanding that if Israel has 490 years in which to repent of their idolatrous iniquities, before the end of the second age of their existence, before the visitation of their iniquities begins to start for their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth {age} of Israel's existence. (Ex 20:4-6) If Christ was born in the year 4 BC at the very beginning of the third age of the existence of the Israelite people, then the start of this single verse prophecy began in 494 BC, and after 4 BC the processes for Redemption and righteous etc. will be changed.
Second Prophecy.
Daniel 9:25 we are told that there will be 481 years between when the command goes forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and the coming of the Messiah. The question that needs to be asked is when we consider the Messiah came? Was it when He was born in Bethlehem, or when he was baptized by John the Baptist, when he was around 29-30 years old. This puts the start of this prophecy in the time range of 485 - 456/455 BC.
Third Prophecy.
Daniel 9:26a we are told that the Messiah will be cut off and but not for Himself, after the completion of the Daniel 9:25 prophecy, which has a ending time period between 1 - 30 AD.
Fourth Prophecy.
Daniel 9:26b began around 30 to 40 years after the Crucifixion when the False Prophet, the Little Horn beast of Daniel 8:9-12 is given an army to destroy Jerusalem and trample God's earthly Host, the Israelite Nation and scatter them to the four compass points of the compass throughout the world. We are also told that the nation would be trampled and the country would remain desolated until the end of the war. The determination of the span of this half verse prophecy is when does the end of the war occur? Again from Daniel 8:14 we are told that the sanctuary and God's hosts would be trampled for a period of 2,300 days which applying the same understanding for verses Daniel 9:24 and 25 where a day is equivalent to a year for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Since we know that the hosts mentioned in Daniel 8:12-13 are still being oppressed and trampled by the nations around them, this half verse prophecy still has a number of years to run. Considering the Ex 20:4-6 prophecy, and that the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers would be over the third and the fourth "generation/age" of Israel's existence, this prophecy still has a little way to go before it completion.
From Isa 24:21-22 we know that the heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth are judged at the same time and they are gathered together on the earth to be locked up in the pit for many days to await the time of their punishment.
Fifth Prophecy.
Daniel 9:27, tells us that there will be a covenant made with many which will have a duration of seven years, and that at the half way mark for this seven year period, the one who comes on the wings of abominations and brings/makes desolate will come and change what he had previously and solemnly makes a covenant with the peoples of the earth until such time that the consummations are determined and poured out onto the one who makes desolate, i.e. Satan is captured and cast into the Lake of Fire. The starting point for this prophecy is after Satan is released from the Bottomless pit and goes out to all of the world before finally coming up against Jerusalem. In other words this prophecy is in our distant future, since when he is cast out of heaven at the end of this present age, he is immediately imprisoned in the Bottomless pit such that when he is released he realizes that he only has a short time for his plan to be made a king come into reality.
In this fifth prophecy, it is Satan via the False Prophet, the Little Horn Beast of Daniel 7 and 8, who makes a covenant with many. This prophecy is not about Christ making a covenant with the people, which incidentally is only in God's providence to make.
Summary: - The five prophecies in Daniel 9:24-27 begin sequentially, one after the other and have a duration spanning around three and a half ages, i.e. around 3,500 plus years. When these five prophecies are put into their proper time sequence and imposed upon the remaining time span from the time of Daniel to the end of the Age of the Ages, we can appreciate the the events described in these four verses and the time scale that is in play for their completion.
Shalom
If we look at the five prophecies given in Dan 9:25-27 we can observe that they are chronologically ordered: - so that we have
First prophecy.
Daniel 9:24, began in 494 BC from my understanding that if Israel has 490 years in which to repent of their idolatrous iniquities, before the end of the second age of their existence, before the visitation of their iniquities begins to start for their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth {age} of Israel's existence. (Ex 20:4-6) If Christ was born in the year 4 BC at the very beginning of the third age of the existence of the Israelite people, then the start of this single verse prophecy began in 494 BC, and after 4 BC the processes for Redemption and righteous etc. will be changed.
Second Prophecy.
Daniel 9:25 we are told that there will be 481 years between when the command goes forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and the coming of the Messiah. The question that needs to be asked is when we consider the Messiah came? Was it when He was born in Bethlehem, or when he was baptized by John the Baptist, when he was around 29-30 years old. This puts the start of this prophecy in the time range of 485 - 456/455 BC.
Third Prophecy.
Daniel 9:26a we are told that the Messiah will be cut off and but not for Himself, after the completion of the Daniel 9:25 prophecy, which has a ending time period between 1 - 30 AD.
Fourth Prophecy.
Daniel 9:26b began around 30 to 40 years after the Crucifixion when the False Prophet, the Little Horn beast of Daniel 8:9-12 is given an army to destroy Jerusalem and trample God's earthly Host, the Israelite Nation and scatter them to the four compass points of the compass throughout the world. We are also told that the nation would be trampled and the country would remain desolated until the end of the war. The determination of the span of this half verse prophecy is when does the end of the war occur? Again from Daniel 8:14 we are told that the sanctuary and God's hosts would be trampled for a period of 2,300 days which applying the same understanding for verses Daniel 9:24 and 25 where a day is equivalent to a year for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Since we know that the hosts mentioned in Daniel 8:12-13 are still being oppressed and trampled by the nations around them, this half verse prophecy still has a number of years to run. Considering the Ex 20:4-6 prophecy, and that the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers would be over the third and the fourth "generation/age" of Israel's existence, this prophecy still has a little way to go before it completion.
From Isa 24:21-22 we know that the heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth are judged at the same time and they are gathered together on the earth to be locked up in the pit for many days to await the time of their punishment.
Fifth Prophecy.
Daniel 9:27, tells us that there will be a covenant made with many which will have a duration of seven years, and that at the half way mark for this seven year period, the one who comes on the wings of abominations and brings/makes desolate will come and change what he had previously and solemnly makes a covenant with the peoples of the earth until such time that the consummations are determined and poured out onto the one who makes desolate, i.e. Satan is captured and cast into the Lake of Fire. The starting point for this prophecy is after Satan is released from the Bottomless pit and goes out to all of the world before finally coming up against Jerusalem. In other words this prophecy is in our distant future, since when he is cast out of heaven at the end of this present age, he is immediately imprisoned in the Bottomless pit such that when he is released he realizes that he only has a short time for his plan to be made a king come into reality.
In this fifth prophecy, it is Satan via the False Prophet, the Little Horn Beast of Daniel 7 and 8, who makes a covenant with many. This prophecy is not about Christ making a covenant with the people, which incidentally is only in God's providence to make.
Summary: - The five prophecies in Daniel 9:24-27 begin sequentially, one after the other and have a duration spanning around three and a half ages, i.e. around 3,500 plus years. When these five prophecies are put into their proper time sequence and imposed upon the remaining time span from the time of Daniel to the end of the Age of the Ages, we can appreciate the the events described in these four verses and the time scale that is in play for their completion.
Shalom
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Brakelite
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@CharismaticLady the prophecy of Daniel 9 is the single most astounding prophecy in scripture as it pinpoints Israel's Messiah and identifies Jesus as the only possible candidate. It is that prophecy which has so often brought Jewish people to Jesus, recognising Him as their Messiah. @quietthinker has given a simple yet precise interpretation of that prophecy. Anyone claiming it applies to another age or another person is confounded by Christ's life and ministry. The 3 and a half years of Christ's ministry followed by the apostles ministry to the remnant of Israel (go first to the lost sheep of the house of Israel) completed the final 7 years of Israel opportunity to return to their God and accept their Messiah. As mentioned previously, the stoning of Stephen by the highest Jewish authority in the land was the nation's final rejection of their God and culminated in their destruction 40 years later.
@Brakelite2, you are welcome to your opinion as to the interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27, just as @quietthinker is also welcome to hold the views that he holds, which is based on what your have learned from your "teachers" within your denomination, but the fact is that their understanding is flawed.
Your expressed preterism understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 leaves a lot to be desired.
Brakelite2's claim Israel had to accept their Messiah by the time that Stephan was stoned to death, flies in the face of what Paul wrote in Romans 11:25-25 where he prophetically stated that all of Israel would be saved after the 2,300 years of the heathen kingdom trampling the sanctuary of God and His earthly host had run it full course to completion.
What I posted above, is in compliance with Daniel 12:4-7 where Daniel is told by man in linen who was above the waters of the river that all of the wonders that Daniel had learned about, during his visions and dreams etc. over his lifetime, would be completed within an age, ages and half an age, where there was half an age from Daniel's time to the Messiah, which would be followed by two ages where Israel was scattered to the four corners of the earth, after which Israel would be redeemed and enter into a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's possession among the Nations Covenant with God during the duration of the last age before the final judgement will occur.
Your post suggest that Israel was permanently rejected by God at the time of Stephan's stoning by the religious leaders of that time and that they now have no further part to play in God's salvation plans for the people of the earth. Nothing is further from the truth than this belief about God and your mistaken belief that God has now rejected Israel.
Perhaps you should repent before God of your mistaken understanding of His End Time Prophecies.
Bobby Jo
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Actually, -- apparently there were multiple taxes on different occasions. So that's where Kenneth Doig comes in. He analyzed all the nuances of those events, -- which previously had simply been glossed over --, to arrive to the CORRECT timing. And it's NOT what "classical christianity" asserts.
It's not the FIRST time we've been told misinformation/disinformation from the pulpit, and won't be the last!
Bobby Jo
After having looked at the book of Kenneth Doig that you recommended, I would not put my faith in what his conclusions are.
But those who know no better will recommend his "scholarship."
I know it is confusing, but Romans 11 has nothing to do with Daniel 8's 2,300 day prophecy. Besides, you have 2,300 "years" when Daniel 8 is all about Greece, before Rome conquered them and came into power. The 2,300 days is stated as "evenings and mornings," and just as in Genesis 1, evenings and mornings was a 1 day period, 24 hours, just under 7 years. That is why evenings and mornings was specified to show these are as they are written, and can't be turned into prophetic years. The time of the end was the end of Grecian rule over the world. The "little horn" of Daniel 8 is not the same "little horn" of Daniel 7. But they do show paradigms of three different 7 year periods. What you mentioned in Romans 11 is the last paradigm of the 7 year Great Tribulation when all of Israel will be saved. You are erroneously pulling aspects of different prophecies and combining them willy-nilly and even changing 7 years to 2300 years. Oy vey!
Daniel 8's period of 2300 literal days (6.3 years) is from 167 BC. to 160 BC (Jewish revolt) when in the middle of that period, just before 164 BC when Antiochus Ephiphanes IV died, he slaughtered a pig on the altar in the Jewish temple in honor of Zeus, defiling it. It was in the middle of the Maccebean revolt. Jacob Maccabees cleansed the temple.
Daniel 8:8 (Greece) Therefore the male goat grew very great (Alexander the Great); but when he became strong, the large horn was broken (died in his 30's), and in place of it four notable ones (his four generals) came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn (Antiochus Epiphanes IV) which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land (Jerusalem).
This was a paradigm of the next Jewish revolt.
Daniel 9:26-27 shows another period of time after the death of Christ, which He, Himself, prophesied about the destruction of that period's Jewish temple by Rome. The prince is not Jesus but like another little horn Titus, and in the middle of the Jewish revolt of 66 AD to 73 AD, in 70 AD the temple was destroyed, defiling it. And the Jewish custom of burnt offerings in the temple was forever destroyed, finally putting an end to it as Jesus prophesied.
Daniel 7 is placed first and is a history of the Jews from the Babylonian captivity all the way to the second coming. It is similar to the great statue with the head of gold (Babylon), breast of silver (Medes and Persians), girdle of bronze (Greece) two legs of Iron (Rome), and feet and toes of mixture of iron and clay (strong and weak countries). The culmination is the period of the Great Tribulation and the little horn is the Antichrist. The paradigms of him prior to the end was Daniel 8 (Grecian antichrist) Antiochus Epiphanes IV, and Daniel 9 (Roman antichrist) Nero with his general Titus.
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Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
That's not what Montgomery called it. He said Dan. 9 is the "dismal swamp" of OT prophecy. Which is to say that everyone goes in, but no one comes out, -- kinda like "The Princess Bride" fire-swamp. The Scriptures are butchered by a "Jesus agenda", the "ancient fulfillments" defy the angel's instructions; and History doesn't support ANY VERSION of the lying commentators.
Need more?
Bobby Jo
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
The angel disagrees, Scripture disagrees, and History disagrees. But of course you're correct.
Bobby Jo
Paul Christensen
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Here is a very good article that clarifies much about it:
Was There Really A Census During the Time of Caesar Augustus?
Paul Christensen
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A very informative analysis of these prophecies. You've certainly done your homework here!
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
A very informative analysis of these prophecies. You've certainly done your homework here!
It's hogwash. -- Commentary hogwash, but still hogwash.
First of all: Please name the Dual Monarchy during Cyrus the Great's reign (two horns). -- There is none
Secondly: Alexander's empire was divided between FIVE GENERALS, which lasted for 42 years until Antipater conquered Lysimachus' possession of Thrace.
After some minor trials at arms which disposed of lesser contenders, they divided the empire into five parts -- Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece, Lysimachus Thrace, Antigonus Asia Minor, Seleucus Babylonea, and Ptolemy Egypt.”[1]
[1] Durant, Will, “Story of Civilization: Part I,” Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558
[1] Durant, Will, “Story of Civilization: Part I,” Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558
And if you need more, please ask. But in the meantime, don't believe the liars. Instead, believe the angel:
Dan. 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
... or not ...
Bobby Jo
Paul Christensen
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It seems that you have not done an in-depth comparative study of the Daniel prophecies and subsequent history. I have heard some excellent ministry on it which has shown how history has confirmed the prophecies right down to the last detail. Daniel could never have known how the prophecies he received would be fulfilled so exactly in history. It shows that God gave him the prophecies and then He made sure that they were fulfilled in exact detail.
This tells me that the Bible is totally true and is the Word of God. Anyone who does an in-depth study of the prophecies and their fulfilment would have to be convinced that God is real and that future prophecies will be fulfilled in the exact detail they were given.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Hogwash. -- You believe the lies, as I once did, BEFORE THE RESEARCH. And the LIES are so obvious a person with half a brain could see them for what they are if they only look. And so I provided a simple critique of the Ram's "two horns", which you ignored, and I provided a historical citation of Alexander's Generals, which you again ignored.
So PLEASE don't tell me what Scripture and History say. You don't know, and apparently don't care to find out yourself, so REMAIN IGNORANT. BELIEVE THE LIARS. I'm sure all the information which GOD intends for the end-time church IS OF NO VALUE.
But if you actually believe what you assert, then tell me who the name of Cyrus' co-ruler, -- comprising the TWO HORNS.
Now, having asked for a SIMPLE CITATION, let me give you a corresponding SIMPLE CITATION:
46 - 31BC BOTH Julius Caesar AND Marcus Antonius
So now provide your purported DUAL REIGN.
Bobby Jo
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Bobby Jo
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Yeah, there's a lot of church goers whose religiosity is unquestionable, AND SUPERSEDES SCRIPTURE. So don't find out the TRUTH. Believe what you want regardless of what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS. -- And if it REALLY were important for the end-time chuch, I'm quite confident that GOD would have put it in HIS Word.
Good luck,
Bobby Jo
Paul Christensen
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Looks like you are stuck on your own view of all this, so there is no point me continuing the exchange with you. Bye.
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