Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Preacher4Truth]

It was on another site. I witnessed it, too. Dr. Leighton Flowers said knowing the Christ was a personal achievement.

And that we are to boast in it contrary to what 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 states.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Great exposition!
Both, very Biblical, and very practical!

Thank you, DNB. I appreciate that : )

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Well according to your theology, they only hate him because he decided to make them hate him. So, it would actually be God creating hate against himself.

Nope, they are by nature what they are, Ephesians 2:3. You ought to have known we'd refute such a straw man of yours and should have known the above text does as well.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I would like to see that conversation. I think you are twisting what actually happened.

Why accuse like this with zero evidence? That is baselessly slamming another's character.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

But the Holy Spirit says through James that if you don't ask, you won't receive. And the Holy Spirit said through Paul, "Be not anxious for anything but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God" (Philippians 4:6-7).

Also it is the same Holy Spirit who said through John, "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). This means that the invitation to believe in Christ is given to all, as supported by what Jesus Himself said: "Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28).

It is significant that the only place where the word "predestined" is used is this verse: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Romans 8:29).
And, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).
Neither of these verses speak of anyone being deliberately predestined to either heaven or hell, because it would make the open invitation by God to believe the gospel and come to Christ a lie, and God does not lie. "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19).

Hey Paul! You post some good stuff, much appreciated. I do believe the invitation of Christ in Matthew 11:25-30 is limited in its scope by the context. Those to whom the Father and Son are revealed sense the weariness of their heavy load of sin and then come to Christ at his invitation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hey Paul! You post some good stuff, much appreciated. I do believe the invitation of Christ in Matthew 11:25-30 is limited in its scope by the context. Those to whom the Father and Son are revealed sense the weariness of their heavy load of sin and then come to Christ at his invitation.

It’s not Bible, but soaked in biblical truth. Look at Graceless in Pilgrim’s Progress. He had this burden on his back that no one else could see. It was bogging him down. He needed and wanted to get rid of it. He meets Evangelist and he called him ‘Christian’. He asked him why he called him that and Evangelist said, “If you continue reading that book, you will certainly become one.” He pointed graceless to where he needed to go. When he got to the cross, his load he was carrying fell off of him, rolled down the hill, into a hole, never to be seen again. That is who the invitation is for in Matthew 11:25-30. Those who are weary and burdened.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

What if I am offering som help, and some correction.

maybe you should take advantage of that


Although that would sound arrogant on my part, so I would rather just keep discussing the word?(hint)

If you offer bible correction I would welcome it, why would someone resist truth?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

No Paul can not take a passage out of context. You quote a passage to remind people of what the author said

this was used to prove Israel was not chosen because of the will of man, but the will of god, before the child did one righteous act.

while yes, he also argued that people are not saved by birth, he made many arguments in this passage. We need to answer and respond to all of them..personal salvation is not the purpose of romans 9

You are not reading what I posted.
He is not quoting the ot.
He is giving new instructions concerning verses 1-8

 

[Preacher4Truth]

You are not reading what I posted.
He is not quoting the ot.
He is giving new instructions concerning verses 1-8

His argument that this isn't individuals but entire nations that are not shown mercy complicates the issue for him.

Why they try to take comfort in this when they've made the situation even more severe is ironic.

Then this: Certainly they would have to admit, if they're consistent, that this isn't only unfair, but they don't even believe it at all! Why? Because it goes against their entire theological system that teaches He does offer mercy to every single person who has ever lived. But the text shows he does not do this.

 

[Renniks]

Your logic is betraying you.
Anything that comes to pass was ordained to come to pass.
Logic is not leading to truth, scripture does, like this;
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Yes, what God decides to do, he does. That doesn't come close to saying he ordained everything. That's man made doctrine.

 

[Renniks]

If you saw it, would it change your mind?

Depends on how it goes, and the actual context.

 

[Renniks]

Good question....
God ordains the ways and the means..look in Acts18;

read the whole chapter but look here;
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

God told him He had much people, not all...God knew who were His;

God did not give Him the names, He used Pauls preaching and teaching and disputing...do you see it???

Nothing Calvinistic here. So God knew who would believe, not because they were irresistibly ordained to believe, but because he is God and knows who has prepared thier heart to receive him.

 

[Renniks]

The Scripture: "By grace are we saved through faith, not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

This verse is totally consistent with the other two. "By grace are we saved". This is the drawing of the Father, the invitation to receive Christ, the enlightenment that causes the blind eyes to see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ. "Through faith". This is the saving faith that comes through the Holy Spirit when, after being enlightened, we believe the gospel and turn our hearts toward Christ. "Not of ourselves". This shows that it is the work of God in us, giving us the faith to receive Christ. "It is the gift of God", God gives us the enlightenment and the saving faith without us having to earn it in any way. "Not of works lest any should boast". There is nothing we can do to contribute to our salvation, so we have no foundation to boast in our own ability to come to Christ. It is all of Him. We just respond by believing the gospel and asking Christ to come into our lives as Saviour and Lord.

This is consistent with: "Be not anxious for anything, but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God, and the peace of God that passes all understanding will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7).

Then we demonstrate our faith in Christ by turning away from the works of the flesh and seeking to live according to the fruit of the Spirit.

So when we combine related Scriptures together, we get a clearer picture of how to gospel works in order to bring us to faith in Christ.

No arminian would disagree. Nothing irresistible about grace.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes, what God decides to do, he does. That doesn't come close to saying he ordained everything. That's man made doctrine.

Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, “My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure;”[Isaiah 46:10]

It’s not a man made doctrine at all my friend. Nothing is done outside of His decrees.

 

[Renniks]

It was on another site. I witnessed it, too. Dr. Leighton Flowers said knowing the Christ was a personal achievement.

Knowing Christ requires a personal response. The salvation work is all his.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Nothing Calvinistic here. So God knew who would believe, not because they were irresistibly ordained to believe, but because he is God and knows who has prepared thier heart to receive him.

The ability to believe is even a gift of God. John 6:29 and Philippians 1:29 attest to this.

 

[Renniks]

No twisting at all. That you'd defend him shows your errors to be his errors as well. Ever notice how both of you have such an aversion to giving God all the glory? Anytime we put up biblically laden responses giving God all the glory in salvation your retort back is to rob God of all the glory and give it to you? It is the entire objective of your response.

Lol, response to God doesn't deserve any glory. It's the opposite of doing anything yourself.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Knowing Christ requires a personal response. The salvation work is all his.

Even our response comes from God divinely quickening us.

 

[Renniks]

Nope, they are by nature what they are, Ephesians 2:3. You ought to have known we'd refute such a straw man of yours and should have known the above text does as well.

And who ordained that nature, even the fall of man, according to Calvinism?

 

[Renniks]

Why accuse like this with zero evidence? That is baselessly slamming another's character.

Oh the irony.. from the champion of personal attacks