Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Eternally Grateful]

Uh-huh, and what do you do with Jesus telling us we have to remain in him for him to remain in us, and all the verses warning against falling away? We can't go off and fall into false teachings and believe in the flying spaghetti monster and still have eternal life. Neither can we maintain salvation by doing good works.

Yet all those things you just said (remaining in him, working hard not to fall away, falling for false teachings etc etc) are works which they claim must be done to earn salvation.

What about eternal life? What about John, who said they left us but were never of us?


If I gift can be taken back, it was never a gift. If savation can be lost, it was never a gift. And in reality, we have not yet been saved

 

[Preacher4Truth]

God is sovereign over everything but man’s will. God can create everything out of nothing, can place the stars, planets, moons, galaxies, wherever He is pleased to place them, tell Satan and his minions where, when and how to go, yet He can’t override their will.

Autonomy means self-gov’t. They want to govern themselves and tell God when it’s okay for Him to save them. Yet, He is even sovereign over their wills. And no, this does not make them robots or puppets. It means He can change their nature, and consequently their will, by divinely quickening them.

I bet they'd hate the fact that post-conversion God causes us to do his will; Philippians 2:12-13; Ezekiel 36:27 and even makes us to lie down; Psalm 23:2.

"You're saying we're robots and God makes us to do things! That's unfair! I want to do what I want! God doesn't cause anyone to do anything, it would violate our rebellion, er, um, our wills!"

Hmmm.

Carnal minds are at enmity with God and are hostile toward him; Romans 8:7-8; Colossians 1:21.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

this is sad.

His comment was not about understanding biblical salvation

it was about the arminian vs calvin debate that has been waging on for what seems like forever.

EG,
Biblical Calvinism rightly understood is about the Covenant of Redemption spelled out from Genesis to revelation.
They are not two equal ideas.
One is the truth which can be studied and presented, the other is a system that inadvertently opposes truth. There is no way around it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Armenians are from Armenia. They probably teach a variety of things. I don't think Arminias believed salvation could be lost, but others took his beliefs to that logical conclusion. Some took it too far in that direction and did end up depending too much on works, IMO. There is a balance. We must remain in him, but that doesn't mean perfection is somehow possible in this life.

so the 5 points counter to calvinism's tulip are not correct. He did not follow those 5 points?

If we depend on one work to help us be saved we are depending on to many works. Paul condemned the jews in Galatia because they tried to depend on one work (circumcision)

 

[XRose]

Yep

that’s why I despise fatalism, you have God condoning and basically creating evil then punishing mankind for it
.

It looks like you are eternally grateful to your friend Satan for thoroughly dulling your mind and calling GOD evil.
GOD has obviously destroyed billions of people who ignored His laws.
He gave the Jews the gift of forgiveness-atonement of their sins if they would kill a lamb and live by His word but obviously none were able to.
Then He sent prophets telling that one day He would send His son Jesus as a greater lamb for anyone who listened to his voice and followed him.
Again the Jews refused the offer and carried on worshipping their g-d Baal-Moloch whom they claim is really YAHWEH GOD but isn't as Stephen revealed in Acts 7.
Zephaniah tells how GOD is going to destroy all these FalseJews of Jerusalem - but will any of them, or you, believe GOD has a right to do so?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Exactly correct.
This is almost a constant disconnect of a person from the truth. A confused view of foreknowledge guarantees error. There is no way of avoiding that.
The other two main defects in view are a wounded Adam, instead of a dead Adam.
The result is the person tries to believe both things at the same time.
Some posts have much correct information, and in the next post, contradictions and confusion.

Yes, two errant views coupled together, errant concerning God and concerning man.

The end result is exaltation of man and his ability and denying God his just rule over his creation to do as he wills. It's only fair to them if; 1) They are allowed to do what they want (be their own god) and; 2) Can in turn tell God how to act and do what they want and; 3) He must be fair by their rulebook.

They ought not be surprised that their god looks at them in the mirror every morning.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Autonomy means self-gov’t. They want to govern themselves and tell God when it’s okay for Him to save them.

Once again Bro. Listen to yourself. Do you realize how bad and off base this sounds?

Its like a person realizes they are doomed They are broke, completely bankrupt. Homeless. have nothing to cover their nakedness. Have no capacity for Joy, And a person who is perfect love, Perfect Joy Perfect everything comes and lets them know he paid the price for them to be freed from the life they have and come to live with him. And you think they have to say its ok for them to save them? or we believe this?

A person who realizes they are in this situation does not have to say its ok. What they do is what the tax collector does. They get on their knees and cry out for mercy, and pleads for that person to take them home with them..

 

[Renniks]

You're hostile in your mind towards the true God of Scripture. Remember when I told you how you fret over the just deaths of sinners? You call God unfair and are opposed to him in your mind. You've drawn up your own parameters for God to meet, or he can't be your God. John 6:66 comes to mind with Luke 19:14.

For the record of what John Fletcher said? Well, for one, he was hostile in his mind toward God as well and held a severely truncated view of God and rejected clear teachings of God's attributes. He was offended about God apparently according to his diatribe. But I can understand his dilemma a bit due to the fact he wasn't very acquainted with all the Scriptures concerning God's or mans nature.

Another not mismomer of his is that somehow everyone is his child. Nope. Read John 8:31ff and 1 John 3:10.

John Fletcher the Methodist got his teachings from the Wesley's who outright denied biblical doctrines such as predestination and election. John Wesley also held disdain for Abraham and David. So, based on that sandy theological ground of course their disciples would also have false views of God.

The bottom line in Scripture is that God is just in whatsoever he does with and in his creatures. Its not that you all have a problem with the fact he does this, which is proven in Scripture. No, no, you have a problem with God himself.

Wesley was a humble servant of God whose shoes I am not worthy to tie...as close to a real saint as is possible.

 

[Renniks]

Yet all those things you just said (remaining in him, working hard not to fall away, falling for false teachings etc etc) are works which they claim must be done to earn salvation.

What about eternal life? What about John, who said they left us but were never of us?


If I gift can be taken back, it was never a gift. If savation can be lost, it was never a gift. And in reality, we have not yet been saved

If a gift can't be given back, it's not a gift, it's an offer that can't be refused. God's not the mafia.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG,
Biblical Calvinism rightly understood is about the Covenant of Redemption spelled out from Genesis to revelation.
They are not two equal ideas.

1. I never said they were
2. I disagree. Biblical calvinism is correct in many part. but seriously lacking in others.

One is the truth which can be studied and presented, the other is a system that inadvertently opposes truth. There is no way around it.

Actually both from what I see are full of holes and problems. Although I do agree. Calvinists are my brothers and sisters. Because their faith is in Christ. They just mix up how they came to that faith in the first place. Because for some reason they fear faith assurance and trust in another person as somehow saving themselves.

 

[Renniks]

so the 5 points counter to calvinism's tulip are not correct. He did not follow those 5 points?

If we depend on one work to help us be saved we are depending on to many works. Paul condemned the jews in Galatia because they tried to depend on one work (circumcision)

Not works, but continued belief in Christ as our only source of salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It looks like you are eternally grateful to your friend Satan for thoroughly dulling your mind and calling GOD evil.
GOD has obviously destroyed billions of people who ignored His laws.
He gave the Jews the gift of forgiveness-atonement of their sins if they would kill a lamb and live by His word but obviously none were able to.
Then He sent prophets telling that one day He would send His son Jesus as a greater lamb for anyone who listened to his voice and followed him.
Again the Jews refused the offer and carried on worshipping their g-d Baal-Moloch whom they claim is really YAHWEH GOD but isn't as Stephen revealed in Acts 7.
Zephaniah tells how GOD is going to destroy all these FalseJews of Jerusalem - but will any of them, or you, believe GOD has a right to do so?

No, I am eternally grateful god who saved a wretched soul as myself. who is totally unworthy.

if God gave us what we deserve. We would not be sitting here having this conversation. We would all be in hell.

Maybe that's a topic you should look up, and then try to humble yourself with this truth. Because this is how we grow closer and closer to God. and learn to Know the true depths of his love

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If a gift can't be given back, it's not a gift, it's an offer that can't be refused. God's not the mafia.

if a gift can be given back, the giver is insincere

when I give a gift to my child. its hers. Giving it back would be impossible because I would never take it back. I paid for it with my hard earned money and love.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not works, but continued belief in Christ as our only source of salvation.

we lose faith because the one we place our faith in becomes untrustworthy

can you name something God is untrustworthy in? Something he should not be trusted with, because he continually fails us, to the point we can possibly lose faith?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1 John 2: 18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Here is what the bible says about those who supposedly "lost faith" They now are against Christ and deny Christ, thus they are deemed antichrist. There are some who come to our churches and claim to have faith. And then later depart. having now lost faith. I have seen this happen quite a few times

John did not say they lost salvation, He says they were never of us,, ie, they never HAD salvation to begin with.

God promised us in John 6 a; those things I spoke of above, If we can die, Jesus lied. If we can return to hunger and thirst. Jesus lied. If we do not live forever. Jesus lied. If we are not raised on the last day, but are instead delivered to him for judgment, Jesus lied.

that seems to be the cruxt of the issue and why followers of calvin and arminius fight so hard. one pushes free will, and one denies free will. and take it to extremes.

when reality is some place in the middle

 

[SovereignGrace]

Once again Bro. Listen to yourself. Do you realize how bad and off base this sounds?

Its like a person realizes they are doomed They are broke, completely bankrupt. Homeless. have nothing to cover their nakedness. Have no capacity for Joy, And a person who is perfect love, Perfect Joy Perfect everything comes and lets them know he paid the price for them to be freed from the life they have and come to live with him. And you think they have to say its ok for them to save them? or we believe this?

A person who realizes they are in this situation does not have to say its ok. What they do is what the tax collector does. They get on their knees and cry out for mercy, and pleads for that person to take them home with them..

You still don’t get our stance. The natural man will never come to God in their fallen state. The gift of eternal life is not offered, as if He extends it for them to grasp. The gift of eternal is given to the dead sinner.

There is a line “here”. The lost person is to the left of “here” and God is on the right. In your schema, God comes up to “here”, but never crosses over, as it violates their free will if He does. He holds the gift out and it’s up to the dead sinner to reach out and take the gift of eternal life. If he reaches out and accepts it, he is saved and given eternal life. If not, God’s hands are clean, as He at least offered to save them.


The problem with that scenario is you have a dead person reaching out for the gift of eternal life before they are given eternal life. The lost person is dead in sins and can not reach out for God’s gift of eternal life. It would be like going to a morgue and holding out a gift for a corpse to reach out and take hold of.

Also, in their lost state, they hate God. They are hostile towards God. They are at enmity(an ill-will towards) with God. Plus, the lost person thinks the preaching of the cross is foolishness. They can not accept the things of the Spirit, as they deem it foolish. They also cannot understand them, as they are spiritually appraised.

That is why regeneration logically precedes faith, but I believe they happen simultaneously. And when He quickens them, they are gifted faith & repentance(all this happens together), they exercise them and are saved. The gift of eternal life is not offered, it’s given.

 

[Candidus]

Fall from Grace--The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.

Do Armenians teach this? Did Arminian himself believe this?

I don't know what people from Armenia teach but will say that Arminius made soft views both ways. Keep in mind that to oppose Calvinism was punishable by imprisonment and death, so Arminius did what most would do, is to be unclear and uncommitted on the issue. Ten years after his death, Calvinists, with a Calvinist Kangaroo Court, tried Arminius and Arminianism. The followers of Arminius, the Remonstrants, looked at what Arminius said and committed to the conclusion that "yes," a Christian could fall and be finally lost.

"Classic" Arminianism advocates, such as Roger Olson, do not hold to that final point and feel that they are consistent with Arminius at this point. I feel that the logical outcome of the first four points of Arminianism (which are not in dispute as agreeing with Arminius) inevitably, and logically arrive at the side the Remontrants solidified. Because there is some debate as to which way to go on the bifurcated nature of Arminius' statements on final perseverance, there is a lot of latitude in the world as to what is truly Arminian or not. Pegging down Arminianism to a Purist View is not as Easy as saying "unless you hold to the Five-Points of Calvinism, you are not pure." Calvinists can divide among themselves over supralapsarianism or sub-lapsarianism and infralapsarianism, but most would accept each other's purity as Calvinists.

I would classify Olson as a "neo-Calvinist" because he adopts a view connected to Calvinism, and most pure Calvinists would declare him to be an "Arminian" or "Neo-Arminian." How some will view it depends greatly upon their personal stance.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

You still don’t get our stance. The natural man will never come to God in their fallen state. The gift of eternal life is not offered, as if He extends it for them to grasp. The gift of eternal is given to the dead sinner.

There is a line “here”. The lost person is to the left of “here” and God is on the right. In your schema, God comes up to “here”, but never crosses over, as it violates their free will if He does. He holds the gift out and it’s up to the dead sinner to reach out and take the gift of eternal life. If he reaches out and accepts it, he is saved and given eternal life. If not, God’s hands are clean, as He at least offered to save them.


The problem with that scenario is you have a dead person reaching out for the gift of eternal life before they are given eternal life. The lost person is dead in sins and can not reach out for God’s gift of eternal life. It would be like going to a morgue and holding out a gift for a corpse to reach out and take hold of.

Also, in their lost state, they hate God. They are hostile towards God. They are at enmity(an ill-will towards) with God. Plus, the lost person thinks the preaching of the cross is foolishness. They can not accept the things of the Spirit, as they deem it foolish. They also cannot understand them, as they are spiritually appraised.

That is why regeneration logically precedes faith, but I believe they happen simultaneously. And when He quickens them, they are gifted faith & repentance(all this happens together), they exercise them and are saved. The gift of eternal life is not offered, it’s given.

Sadly EG has said he has always loved God, was never (as the testimony of Scripture declares of all the lost) hostile toward him or at enmity with him.

Yet again, when presented with the true God of Scripture he is then most definitely hostile showing enmity.

We are all going to stand before God, so we'd better seriously and solemnly take a look at that contradictory dilemma.

Something is seriously amiss.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sadly EG has said he has always loved God, was never, (as the testimony of Scripture declares of all the lost) hostile toward him or at enmity with him.

Yet again, when presented with the true God of Scripture he is then most definitely hostile showing enmity.

We are all going to stand before God, so we'd better seriously and solemnly take a look at that contradictory dilemma.

Something is seriously amiss.

Many may have never hated God as they may have hated an enemy before they were saved. They probably didn’t go around saying, “I hate God!” But they hated God by their deeds. The Christ said, ”If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.”[John 14:15] The lost person has automatically broken the first one right off the bat by being lost and serving Satan, thereby violating the very first command. That shows they did not truly love Him in their lost state.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sadly EG has said he has always loved God, was never (as the testimony of Scripture declares of all the lost) hostile toward him or at enmity with him.

Yet again, when presented with the true God of Scripture he is then most definitely hostile showing enmity.

We are all going to stand before God, so we'd better seriously and solemnly take a look at that contradictory dilemma.

Something is seriously amiss.

Not one lost person has ever loved God. That’s a biblically impossible thing for them to do.