Not by works - but by faith

[mjrhealth]

ithout the written Word we wouldn't know about Him,

Not true many people have come to Christ without ever reading a bible, and we can only know Him by our time with Him, He is the bread of life and it is of Him we eat,
It is Christ that saves, not teh bible. Many will read it , study it and never know Him

 

[Paul Christensen]

Not true many people have come to Christ without ever reading a bible, and we can only know Him by our time with Him, He is the bread of life and it is of Him we eat,
It is Christ that saves, not teh bible. Many will read it , study it and never know Him

Without the Bible, we cannot know the Christ of the Bible and the only alternative is to have a Christ image in the imagination, which is idolatry, because the Commandment says that we should not worship anyone but the God of the Bible and if we make an image for ourselves, even in our imagination we commit idolatry.

 

[mjrhealth]

Without the Bible, we cannot know the Christ of the Bible and the only alternative is to have a Christ image in the imagination

Yet here we have christians who read the bible, dont know Christ and created Him in there own image, you walk in the Spirirt, you hear His voice, you know the voice of your Lord, only than will you ever know Him

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

but so few listening

 

[Paul Christensen]

Yet here we have christians who read the bible, dont know Christ and created Him in there own image, you walk in the Spirirt, you hear His voice, you know the voice of your Lord, only than will you ever know Him

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

but so few listening

Jesus is here talking about the seven churches, and not about individuals. We need to pay attention to the context so we know what Jesus was actually talking about.

 

[mjrhealth]

Jesus is here talking about the seven churches, and not about individuals. We need to pay attention to the context so we know what Jesus was actually talking about.

No HE was not,

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

that you cannot get from the bible, look at the foolish virgins, what was it Jesus said,

Joh_7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

and that too you cannot get from the bible, only Him

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Not the bible not religion.

If Christ is dead your faith has not basis.

 

[Paul Christensen]

No HE was not,

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

that you cannot get from the bible, look at the foolish virgins, what was it Jesus said,

Joh_7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

and that too you cannot get from the bible, only Him

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Not the bible not religion.

If Christ is dead your faith has not basis.

But you don't accept the authority of the Bible, so why quote it to me as if you expect me to, if you don't yourself?

But yet you are using the Bible itself to show me that we don't need the Bible! How does that work?

How do you know that Jesus is the bread of life?
How do you know that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life?

You are totally contradicting yourself, because you are quoting the Bible to me to tell me that we should not accept what the Bible says!

Doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

 

[mjrhealth]

But you don't accept the authority of the Bible, so why quote it to me as if you expect me to, if you don't yourself?

Bible has no authority, throw it at the devil and see what happens, our authority is in Christ Jesus, the bible is not Jesus, it is not His word, and it has no life.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Joh_18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

are you not listening

 

[Paul Christensen]

Bible has no authority, throw it at the devil and see what happens, our authority is in Christ Jesus, the bible is not Jesus, it is not His word, and it has no life.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Joh_18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

are you not listening

Why are you using the Bible as your authority to me when you say it has no authority for you? Aren't you being hypocritical?

 

[mjrhealth]

Why are you using the Bible as your authority to me when you say it has no authority for you? Aren't you being hypocritical?

It doesnt have any authority, dont care wheter you believe me or the bible, your choosing not His, the bibel points you to Christ, if you choose not to go to or know Him that is your business. but teh bible will not be your entry into God kingdom.

 

[RogerDC]

No, still be saved just have to suffer teh tribulation as most christians will...God doesnt change His min, of course if you want teh world to go to hell , just tell God,

What? If a believer loses his faith, he doesn't lose the "seal" of the HS because God wants them to suffer during the Tribulation? What on earth are you talking about?
A believer is justified by faith - so if a believer loses his faith, he loses his justification. No justification means no salvation and no eternal life in Heaven. No salvation means no "seal" of the HS.

 

[RogerDC]

I think you have missed my point. It is not interpreting belief or behaviour, it is just observing filling a church full of statues, encouraging people to honour the bones of dead people, is simply not christian behaviour.

The relics of saints are revered because some of them have been known to carry the power of healing. This is not superstition and you are wrong to say it is "simply not Christian behaviour" - the phenomenon is cleary recorded in the NT.

Read about how Paul’s “handkerchiefs and aprons” carried the power to cure the sick and cast out demons in Acts 19:11-12? And Acts 5:15-15 suggests Peter’s shadow falling on the sick had cured some of them.​

And surely you’ve read about the woman in Mark 5:25-34 who was cured merely by touching Jesus’ clothing? Jesus was not even aware she’d been cured until after it happened.

But hey, I am not saying you do not find some relief in these ceremonies and ideas, they just have no meaning for me, or appear in scripture.

I have a much better source of reference than the Scriptures - I have the Church that produced the Scriptures - the Catholic Church. The Scriptures are only part the picture.

The subject of this thread is we are saved through faith in Jesus, which means because we believe and listen to Him we follow.

Jesus communicates his will through his Church, which is the "fullness" of Christ (Eph 1:22).

 

[RogerDC]

according to the apostle John, they were never of us, if they were of us they would never have departed. But they departed to expose the fact they were never of us (1 John)

Every one of those Christian ministers who fell into apostasy and become atheists would have at some stage been totally confident that they belonged to the body of Christ and that they would never lose their faith - which is why they went around telling everyone they were “saved”. The thought of losing their faith would have been unthinkable to them. But look what happened - they were wrong - they did lose their faith, totally. Apparently, they were “saved”, but now they’re “unsaved” atheists who may be destined for Hell.
So unless you have a crystal ball, don’t tell me you are “saved” and are certain to go to Heaven, because just like them, you could lose your faith and find yourself on the road to Hell.

Furthermore, a believer does not have to lose his faith to end up in Hell. Believers who commit “deadly” sins (1John 5:16) and remain unforgiven can also end up in Hell (Gal 5:19-21, Matt 7:21-23, 1Cor 6:9-11).

Paul himself said he saw no reason why he shouldn’t be saved, but he also said he cannot judge himself and that only God can do that (1Cor 4:3-5).

Never ASSUME people are saved, even preachers

That sounds funny coming from someone who assumes he is saved.

Paul still said we are sealed until the day of redemption, if Paul wanted the people he wrote this letter to, to know there was any possibility of them losing this seal he would have told them.

When Paul speaks of being “sealed for the day of redemption” (Eph 4:30), he is obviously referring to the believer who remains faithful and abides in Christ until the end.

The “seal” of the Holy Spirit comes as result of believing in Christ and the gospel - ie, faith (Eph 1:13). Therefore, if you lose your faith, you lose the “seal” - simple logic, my friend.
Those Christian ministers who fell and become atheists did not remain faithful and abide in Christ until the end - consequently, they lost the “seal”.

your calling Paul a liar, shame on you!

I love your sense of humour (albeit your spelling needs a little work).

 

[Paul Christensen]

What? If a believer loses his faith, he doesn't lose the "seal" of the HS because God wants them to suffer during the Tribulation? What on earth are you talking about?
A believer is justified by faith - so if a believer loses his faith, he loses his justification. No justification means no salvation and no eternal life in Heaven. No salvation means no "seal" of the HS.

I get what you are talking about, and this is true, if the definition of "faith" is trust in Christ as Saviour. If a person, like Demus, loses his faith and goes back into the world because he loves the world more than Christ, then there is every possibility that he can lose his salvation also. We see this in the book of Hebrews where someone who has tasted of the good things of God and goes back crucifies Christ afresh and tramples His blood underfoot.

But a believer can lose the assurance of his salvation under extreme tribulation. It is not that he was rejected Christ, but has lost his confidence and worries that God may have rejected him, when it is just as if the sun has gone behind a cloud and can no longer be seen. It is in these times a believer has to base his faith on the written promise of God, even though he can't feel the presence of God with him.

 

[mjrhealth]

What? If a believer loses his faith, he doesn't lose the "seal" of the HS because God wants them to suffer during the Tribulation? What on earth are you talking about?
A believer is justified by faith - so if a believer loses his faith, he loses his justification. No justification means no salvation and no eternal life in Heaven. No salvation means no "seal" of the HS.

doesnt mean he wont be saved, as many will discover in the tribulation.

 

[RogerDC]

Without the Bible, we cannot know the Christ of the Bible and the only alternative is to have a Christ image in the imagination.

Without the Bible, you would learn about Christ the same way as most Christians did in the beginning - they heard the gospel from the Church and her missionaries. Most of the early converts would have been illiterate and wouldn't have read the Bible at all.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Without the Bible, you would learn about Christ the same way as most Christians did in the beginning - they heard the gospel from the Church and her missionaries. Most of the early converts would have been illiterate and wouldn't have read the Bible at all.

Perhaps.
But the Jews would have heard their Scriptures read to them, and both Peter and Paul preached from the Jewish Scriptures, and quoted them to back up their preaching of the gospel. The Berean Jews were literate in the Hebrew Scriptures and possibly the Septuagint, and they were able to search the Scriptures to see if Paul was preaching the truth.

Also, the resurrected Jesus was able to show the two disciples at Emmaeus through the Scriptures all the references to Himself. Also, because Alexander the Great introduced Koine Greek, a much simpler version of classical Greek, all throughout the lands which he conquered, so many would be able to read and write it.

The four Gospel writers could read and write, and the original copies of their gospels would have been in circulation throughout the early churches. Luke's gospel was written while many of the eye witness of the life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus were still alive. Acts was certainly written down soon after Paul got to Rome the first time. Paul's letters were certainly in general circulation and read in the churches, as he instructed very early on. Just because our earliest manuscripts date from the 4th Century doesn't mean that there were much earlier copies that have been lost. The originals of Paul's letters were obviously written and distributed during Paul's actual ministry in the churches and during his imprisonment in Rome.

So, if there were illiterate people in the churches, they would have had literate people read the Scriptures plus Paul's letters to them, and so their faith was certainly based on the Jewish Scriptures, and, as we know now, Paul's letters which came to be recognised as New Testament Scriptures.

I understand your allegiance to the authority of the Church. I am not going to cause conflict by commenting on it. Where the Church gives Scripture truth to you, then I have no argument. We will have our disagreement about other doctrines that are not found in Scripture, but I understand the value that you put on Church tradition. Much of that tradition is there for the Church to run decently and in order, and there are many in the Church who have a sincere faith in Christ and Christ crucified and resurrected, and who is a competent judge to say that their faith is false? I'm not.

Even Martin Luther believed that the RCC was a true Christian church and that RCC people were true Christians. He just said that the pope was the anti-Christ, not the sincere people faithful to the gospel.

I know that some on this forum have accused me of being anti-Catholic, but I am not. I just don't support some of the doctrines and practices of some in the hierarchy of the Church. When I studied Catholic theology as part of my M.Div, I learned that there is more to unite us than to divide us.

But this doesn't mean that I am convinced enough to become Catholic. I stop short at loving my two cats, and the memory of my dearly departed cat Daisy (in the picture), so I can call myself a Cataholic!! :-)

 

[amadeus]

Why should God change His mind, just because you dont like it, You want to "earn" your way in, a pat on the back for being a good boy. you wont get one. Dont worry, when the tribulation arrives believer and unbeliever together with the religious will suffer the same, you wont be left out. You think your safe because you are in church,,

Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

God does Not ever change His mind, but people do... in both directions! God "spoke" His Word to and for men before the foundation of the world and it contained both blessings and curses. We get exactly what we really ask for! Remember Judah, the 4th son of Jacob/Israel! people.

 

[amadeus]

Yet here we have christians who read the bible, dont know Christ and created Him in there own image, you walk in the Spirirt, you hear His voice, you know the voice of your Lord, only than will you ever know Him

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

but so few listening

Indeed, consider Saul/Paul who before meeting Jesus [not in a book] was a master of the scriptures, but really did not know God at all. Then on the road to Damascus, on his way to persecute true believers, he met Jesus himself and was never again the same man.

 

[FollowHim]

Which Catholic doctrine condones murder and burning people at the stake?

Yahweh condoned stoning someone to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath - that was what the law of Moses demanded. . Is that any better or worse than burning someone to death for heresy?

If you walk away from every Church that contains sinners, you will walk way from all the them.

I wish you were joking. Killing people for heresy was never a good idea.
For murder etc. there is a valid argument.

There is a large difference between being part of Israel and the covenant of Moses with the new covenant and the church of believers.
If you cannot see the difference, then that is where we disagree.

 

[FollowHim]

Show some respect junior.

To whom am I to show respect? To the adultery of the faith, to idolatry, to exultation of Mary to being the queen of heaven?
I would rather die than admit this is anything to do with following Jesus or knowing a free heart, full of life and living in His love.

Indulgences for getting out of purgatory is just a farce.
But if you want to believe this is what Jesus meant us to know and follow, thats your choice.
I could never follow this or believe it carries any weight.