Not by works - but by faith

[mjrhealth]

are they still "sealed" by the HS?

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

If God says He will he will, if Christ says eh will he will, God is faithfull even when we are not, if He where not we wouldnt be here waiting for our redemption, because we as men are not very faithful.

 

[Grailhunter]

None of us can lead a sinless life - and God knows we cannot lead a sinless life. That’s why He inspired John to write, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1John 1:8). But God, in his loving mercy and through Christ, has given us a way out of our sin: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1John 1:9).

Are you arguing that, since we can cannot live a sinless life, we may as well abandon ourselves to sin? If so, that is not repentance, but spiritual poison which leads to death (Romans 6:20-23).

In order to be saved, we must repent (ie, so “No” to sin) and strive to be holy - “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14). To be “HOLY” means to repent and obey Christ’s commandments. To “STRIVE” does not mean to be perfect, but to do our imperfect best. We demonstrate our love for God by doing our best (albeit we sometimes fail) to keep His commandments, which includes REPENTANCE - “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15). Your idea of repentance empties it of all meaning and value. Have you never read Romans 6?I assume you’re referring to Heb 6:4-8, which is referring to the sin of apostasy, which is the total rejection of the Christian faith.

You said in post 498---> If you continue to sin, you have not repented.
Then I said to you--->So you think you live a sinless life?
This was my main objection, that you said, If you continue to sin, you have not repented. That is not true.

Then you said to me-->Are you arguing that, since we can cannot live a sinless life, we may as well abandon ourselves to sin? If so, that is not repentance, but spiritual poison which leads to death (Romans 6:20-23).
My point is that you will sin, not to be apathetic or work at it. If you think you are leading a sinless life...give us some advice on that. When we do sin Christ is faithful to forgive us if we ask for forgiveness. Our repentance is still valid.

I assume you’re referring to Heb 6:4-8, which is referring to the sin of apostasy, which is the total rejection of the Christian faith.
But that is not what it says or implies.

Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[FollowHim]

You need to distinguish between the sins and mistakes of individual Catholics in the past and what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Which Catholic doctrine says non-Catholics must be put to death?
… which proves except Catholics are sinners too, just like everyone else.

I do not have to go closer to the history of burning people at the stake, time and again.
I do not know how they justified this behaviour, I just walk away.

You do not go up to a murderer and say, justify your murder, rather you keep quiet and walk away.

 

[FollowHim]

Really? That’s news to me. If there are “many” Catholics who believe Mary is part of the Trinity, you shouldn’t have any trouble citing one. So go ahead. Demonstrate that you are not talking rubbish.///////////Furthermore, any “Catholic” who believes Mary is part to the Trinity is a heretic, and not a true Catholic.

Catholics don’t “adore” statues.

I think you have missed my point. It is not interpreting belief or behaviour, it is just observing filling a church full of statues, encouraging people to honour the bones of dead people, is simply not christian behaviour.

It is why baptist churches have no statues at all. There is no point creating a possible false connection and then claiming having a statue does not mean the false connection exists. Spending money to create such things is done because it has an impact. I would simply say this impact is irrelevant, and a detraction from Jesus and His ways.

Similarly, the rosary, is an aid to a repetitive prayer, yet praying from the heart is what is needed.
The idea that Mary intercedes for believers is simply absurd to me, when we can talk directly to Jesus.

But hey, I am not saying you do not find some relief in these ceremonies and ideas, they just have no meaning for me, or appear in scripture.

The subject of this thread is we are saved through faith in Jesus, which means because we believe and listen to Him we follow.

 

[RogerDC]

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

If God says He will he will, if Christ says eh will he will, God is faithfull even when we are not, if He where not we wouldnt be here waiting for our redemption, because we as men are not very faithful.

Doesn't answer my question. The seal of the HS comes as a result of believing the gospel (Eph 1). There are many former believers (even former Christian pastors) who had the seal of the HS, but lost their faith, fell from grace and are now atheists. Do they still have the seal of the HS?

 

[RogerDC]

I do not have to go closer to the history of burning people at the stake, time and again.
I do not know how they justified this behaviour, I just walk away.

You do not go up to a murderer and say, justify your murder, rather you keep quiet and walk away.

Which Catholic doctrine condones murder and burning people at the stake?

Yahweh condoned stoning someone to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath - that was what the law of Moses demanded. . Is that any better or worse than burning someone to death for heresy?

If you walk away from every Church that contains sinners, you will walk way from all the them.

 

[Grailhunter]

I think you have missed my point. It is not interpreting belief or behaviour, it is just observing filling a church full of statues, encouraging people to honour the bones of dead people, is simply not christian behaviour.

It is why baptist churches have no statues at all. There is no point creating a possible false connection and then claiming having a statue does not mean the false connection exists. Spending money to create such things is done because it has an impact. I would simply say this impact is irrelevant, and a detraction from Jesus and His ways.

Similarly, the rosary, is an aid to a repetitive prayer, yet praying from the heart is what is needed.
The idea that Mary intercedes for believers is simply absurd to me, when we can talk directly to Jesus.

But hey, I am not saying you do not find some relief in these ceremonies and ideas, they just have no meaning for me, or appear in scripture.

The subject of this thread is we are saved through faith in Jesus, which means because we believe and listen to Him we follow.

Show some respect junior.

 

[mjrhealth]

Doesn't answer my question. The seal of the HS comes as a result of believing the gospel (Eph 1). There are many former believers (even former Christian pastors) who had the seal of the HS, but lost their faith, fell from grace and are now atheists. Do they still have the seal of the HS?

Unless they outright reject Christ, didnt you read the post...

 

[RogerDC]

Unless they outright reject Christ, didnt you read the post...

If they were believers and then became unbelieving atheists, they have lost their faith in Christ, wouldn't you say?
If they've lost their faith, have they lost the "seal" of the HS? Yes or No? ... stop beating about the bush.

 

[Dcopymope]

If they were believers and then became unbelieving atheists, they have lost their faith in Christ, wouldn't you say?
If they've lost their faith, have they lost the "seal" of the HS? Yes or No? ... stop beating about the bush.

Some would say they were never true believers to begin with.

 

[RogerDC]

Some would say they were never true believers to begin with.

That's easy to say, but impossible to prove, so it's a moot point. If a believer says he has faith, you cannot prove that he doesn't.

I think it is safe to assume that a Christian pastor has faith - just as it is safe to assume that a Christian pastor who becomes an atheist has lost his faith.

Faith can be lost, as Jesus points out in the parable of the seed that falls on rocky ground.
Heb 6:4-6 clearly implies faith can be lost.

If faith is lost, so is the "seal" of the HS, that came as a result of faith (Eph 1).

 

[Dcopymope]

That's easy to say, but impossible to prove, so it's a moot point. If a believer says he has faith, you cannot prove that he doesn't.

I think it is safe to assume that a Christian pastor has faith - just as it is safe to assume that a Christian pastor who becomes an atheist has lost his faith.

Faith can be lost, as Jesus points out in the parable of the seed that falls on rocky ground.
Heb 6:4-6 clearly implies faith can be lost.

If faith is lost, so is the "seal" of the HS, that came as a result of faith (Eph 1).

Yeah, well, I don't specifically have a problem with the idea that the seal of God can be removed due to lack of faith. We are warned not to take the mark of the beast for a reason. Some people believe a believer can take the mark and still retain the mark of God, yet this isn't even implied in the narrative.

 

[mjrhealth]

If they were believers and then became unbelieving atheists, they have lost their faith in Christ, wouldn't you say?
If they've lost their faith, have they lost the "seal" of the HS? Yes or No? ... stop beating about the bush.

No, still be saved just have to suffer teh tribulation as most christians will...God doesnt change His min, of course if you want teh world to go to hell , just tell God,

 

[RogerDC]

Some people believe a believer can take the mark and still retain the mark of God, yet this isn't even implied in the narrative.

There is no end to nutty ideas. They keep us amused, at least.

 

[Dcopymope]

There is no end to nutty ideas. They keep us amused, at least.

Yes, and that's the most positive thing I ever had to say about most Christian sites, including this one.

 

[RogerDC]

No, still be saved just have to suffer teh tribulation as most christians will...God doesnt change His min, of course if you want teh world to go to hell , just tell God,

And what of former believers who will remain atheists until they die? Do they still have the "seal" of the HS?

 

[mjrhealth]

Why should God change His mind, just because you dont like it, You want to "earn" your way in, a pat on the back for being a good boy. you wont get one. Dont worry, when the tribulation arrives believer and unbeliever together with the religious will suffer the same, you wont be left out. You think your safe because you are in church,,

Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Nowhere does it say the seal of the Holy Spirit cannot be broken (read Heb 6:4-6). If you lose your faith, will you still be "sealed"? If you commit "deadly" sins (1John 5), will you still be sealed?

That word "seal" can also be translated as "mark" - you've assumed it is automatically permanent - it isn't.

There is some truth in what you are saying. Through the Bible we have the salvation promises of God as our "title deed". It was the same when I bought my new home in Christchurch last December. I paid the price and had to wait for four weeks until the possession date. I had the title deed made out in my name, so I knew the house was mine, but I to wait until I got full possession of it.

We have broken the Ten Commandments all our lives, whether we admit to it or not. If we have lied, taken something that does not belong to us irrespective of value, used the name of God as a swear word, and looked at a person with lust, as we all have, including me, then in God's sight we all are lying, thieving, blaspheming, adulterers at heart, and when we die, which we all will, then we will stand before God in the judgment.

We will all be found guilty as charged on that day, because we all are. The person who has rejected Christ will be sentenced to God's eternal prison with no parole. Those who put their trust in Christ will have Christ tell them, I took the wrath of God and the penalty for your sin when I died on the cross for you, so you can go free and enter into the joys of your Lord in heaven."

This is like being in an airplane and given a parachute. One person can believe in the parachute but not put it on, another will believe that the parachute will save him if he puts it on. If the plane gets into trouble and he has to jump, wearing the parachute will save him crashing to the ground on his face as terminal velocity.

Because death is inevitable for all of us, it is as if we are in an airplane that is going to crash at some point, we need to "put on Christ" through faith and trust, and demonstrate through our repentance from the works of the flesh that we are wearing the parachute of Christ. Then when we die and come before God in the judgment, we will be safe because we did what we needed to do to sincerely trust in Christ for our salvation.

I am aware of what the RCC teaches, and I have deliberately steered clear of the faith/works debate, because our difference of opinion about it won't make any difference in the judgment. We won't have our church to advocate for us there, because all church structures and organisations will be swept away along with the earth and the heavens. This is because the Scripture says that earth, along with everything on it, and the heavens will flee away, and all that will be there is the great white throne of judgment where we all have to stand before and face God.

 

[mjrhealth]

Through the Bible we have the salvation promises of God as our "title deed

Actually it is though Christ that we have the promise, the bible only tells us of it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Actually it is though Christ that we have the promise, the bible only tells us of it.

The Bible is our title deed. The Scripture says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and that without faith it is impossible to please God. It is written Word that tells us about Jesus and what He did for us on Calvary. Without the written Word we wouldn't know about Him, just as I wouldn't know whether I have actually bought my new home unless I had the written title deed that shows my ownership. So the promises of God in the Bible are components written in our Bible title deed to show the seal of the Holy Spirit. Without the Bible we would have no evidence that Jesus even exists let alone having saved us.

If you are claiming salvation in Christ without the title deed of the Bible, you can't prove that you are saved at all. If someone asks you for the evidence that you are saved, unless you can show in the Bible that you are saved, you are up the creek without the proverbial paddle!