The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[BreadOfLife]

See you still can not find it in yourself to admit God wrote the Bible. Not man

so how do we know which church is the right church’s. Because man says? Or because God says? And if it is his true church, would that church not practice and do what Gods word says?

that’s all we need to know. You just admitted, you follow men,

well done

Sooooo - why do you insist on LYING??

I never made the asinine claim you are accusing me of above in RED.
God IS the Author of Scripture.

You keep denying that you adhere to the 16th century Protestant invention of Sola Scriptura - yet you have cemented this fact with your last few posts. You ONLY appeal to Scripture for your Authority. That is the very DEFINITION of "Sola Scriptura".

In other posts - you denied over and over that you don't adhere to the 16th century Protestant invention of Sola Fide either - yet you have presented multiple arguments for it.

Conclusion: You're just another Protestant who, for whatever reason - claims he is NOT a Protestant. You're an anti-Catholic to boot - whereas NOT all Protestants are.
I've always said that the defining characteristic of an "anti-Catholic" is a person who LIES to make their points when arguing against Catholics . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Faith plus works = works. You can deny it all you want
it’s funny you keep saying you do not teach works, yet you keep throwing around james who appears to say we are saved by works
Romans says what it says, as does Ephesians, as does John who wrote the words of Jesus.
and again,
I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS SUCH A THING AS FAITH APART FROM WORKS
I am going to keep holding those words until you admit I have said them,

I would take you seriously - but your two claims above in RED directly contradict each other.

Either Faith=Belief+Works - or it doesn't.
You can't have it BOTH ways. That's called "hypocrisy" . . .

 

[RogerDC]

See your trying to add to the word. It did not say he will save us, Paul said he saved us, a completed act

You recommend what Paul said, but then you do exactly what he said NOT to do! You claim you are already saved, which in effect is to “pronounce judgement before the time” - Paul clearly preaches against this:
“It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore DO NOT PRONOUNCE JUDGEMENT BEFORE THE TIME, BEFORE THE LORD COMES, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendations from God.” (1Cor 4:4-5).

Paul also said we are “being saved” (1Cor 1:18), meaning salvation is a process.

This verse says salvation comes at “the end” of life:
”He who endures until the end will be saved” (Matt 10:22).

This passage says we are saved when Jesus comes again - ie, not now, but in the future.
"And just as it appointed for men to die once, after that comes judgement; so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but save those who are eagerly awaiting Him" (Hebrews 9:27-28).

If you base your theology on just one verse, taken out of context, you are going to end up with illogical, false and unbiblical doctrine. You need to consider the whole body of Scripture, not just bits and pieces that tickle your fancy.

the only means of atonement on the OT was blood sacrifice, now your church says there are many means of atonement

Really? What are these “many means of atonement”?

jesus said it is finished, he did not say it is almost accomplished, I did my part now you do yours

Oh, so you don't need to do anything? Neither baptism nor to have faith?

 

[RogerDC]

i would highly suggest you read your bible we are only justified once and one time only

If “we are only justified once”, when does that occur?

It seems to me that there are at least three different sources of justification:
1. Romans 4:25 says Jesus “was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification”; likewise, Romans 5:9 says “we are now justified by his blood”.
2. 1Peter 3:21 says “Baptism … saves you”, so baptism is a form of justification. John 3:5 and 1Cor 6:9-11 imply likewise.
3. James 2:24 says “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”.

These three different and separate sources of justification cannot occur at the same time, so how can it be that “we are only justified ONCE”?

 

[RogerDC]

I do not understand this logic. Why should the RCC church claim to be the authentic church?

The Catholic Church claims to be the one, true Church … because she is.

It is possible for any group of believers to go astray

If the Catholic Church has gone “astray”, that means Jesus failed to keep His promise that “the gates of hell would not prevail against” His Church. A Church that has gone “astray” is one that has been defeated by Satan.

so you need to grasp what is authentic faith and what is false before one can say one group are closer to the truth than another.

After many years of studying many different denominations and approaches to Christianity, the Holy Spirit guided me to the one, true Church - the Catholic Church.

Buildings and ceremonies do not make an action real or of God, it is knowing Him and being a part of His word.

The best way to know Christ is through His Church, since His Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15) and the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23). It is through His Church - not merely the Scriptures - that the following is achieved:
”For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, until we all attain “the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; ; so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive” (Eph 4:4-14).

 

[Joseph77]

If the Catholic Church has gone “astray”, that means Jesus failed to keep His promise that “the gates of hell would not prevail against” His Church. A Church that has gone “astray” is one that has been defeated by Satan.

Not in this case, no.
Jesus Word, Scripture, is perfectly true and in perfect harmony with the evil of rcc.
rcc did not go astray because of being defeated by satan.
It started that way, as written "many anti-christs already" in the first century, and so forth.

 

[Joseph77]

(the gates of hell do not prevail over those who are born again by the will of the Creator in heaven, no. Even as martyrs, born again believers "win"/ prevail over sin and the world and the rcc and the devil)

 

[RogerDC]

You got it backwards, without faith their is no obedience.

James 2:26 says “faith without works is dead”. In other words, without obedience to God’s commandments (1John 2:3-4), your faith means nothing. Even when Adam and Eve were perfect (before the Fall), God demanded obedience from them. Why? Because that’s how God tests and measures our love for Him. Nothing has changed - Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15).

 

[RogerDC]

Oh jeesh now teh catholic church has become God

Not quite, but close - the Catholic Church is the body of Christ and the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23). The Church is both human and divine.

 

[RogerDC]

Jesus says clearly that the Creator in Heaven REVEALS THIS to "little children" and HIDES IT (and hides salvation) from the educated ones.
That leaves out in the darkness the ones you have posted that you trust in, the ones opposed to Jesus and contrary to all Scripture ....

So how does your brilliant theory explain why God chose the apostle Paul - a Pharisee and a very intelligent and highly educated man - to write great chunks of the New Testament?

Are you seriously suggesting God hides salvation from educated people? Please, please tell me you’re joking!

Are you trying to say you’re uneducated?

The "church teaching" you have espoused is very misleading, confusing, deceptive, and wrong.

I’m not at all surprised that you find Catholic theology “confusing”. And since you find it “confusing”, you then conclude that it must be “wrong”.

 

[RogerDC]

No it doesnt

If you don’t believe me, here, read it for yourself:
“As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as He who called you is holy, be HOLY yourselves in all your conduct, since it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy’. And if you invoke as Father Him who judges each one impartially according to his DEEDS, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile” (1Peter 1:14-17).

Paul says, “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14).

Holiness is simply loving God and keeping the commandments. So Paul is saying, if you don’t strive to keep the commandments of Christ, you will not make it Heaven. 1John 2:3-4 says a believer who doesn’t keep “His commandments” is “a liar, and the truth is not in him”.

 

[RogerDC]

God didnt men did, did you see God there among the men deciding what the considered scriptural and not, if God had done it, there would only be one version.

Er, there is only ONE VERSION of the New Testament - Matthew to Revelation, 27 books.

If the Catholic Church wasn’t responsible for compiling the NT, who was?

 

[mjrhealth]

If you don’t believe me, here, read it for yourself:
“As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as He who called you is holy, be HOLY yourselves in all your conduct, since it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy’. And if you invoke as Father Him who judges each one impartially according to his DEEDS, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile” (1Peter 1:14-17).

Paul says, “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14).

Holiness is simply loving God and keeping the commandments. So Paul is saying, if you don’t strive to keep the commandments of Christ, you will not make it Heaven. 1John 2:3-4 says a believer who doesn’t keep “His commandments” is “a liar, and the truth is not in him”.

Love yep, best you can do, the rest is all sel fish.

 

[Joseph77]

So how does your brilliant theory explain why God chose the apostle Paul - a Pharisee and a very intelligent and highly educated man - to write great chunks of the New Testament?

Is God the Creator Sovereign? yes.

Did you read His Book ? I don't know.

Does God the Almighty Explain what you ask clearly ? yes (in English, Hebew, Greek and Aramaic, etc )

 

[Joseph77]

If the Catholic Church wasn’t responsible for compiling the NT, who was?

Did you read the book?
Do you believe the Author ?
He explains in the book, how HE accomplished everything you are asking about,
and why those wicked men are not responsible for what HE did - and why they claim credit for it.

 

[mjrhealth]

Not quite, but close - the Catholic Church is the body of Christ and the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23). The Church is both human and divine.

Oh now the Harlot says she is glorious, wow what next.

Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Rev_19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

oh how men love there religions.

Rev_2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

 

[Joseph77]

Oh now the Harlot says she is glorious, wow what next.

In her own eyes perhaps,
and those deluded by her....

 

[mjrhealth]

Er, there is only ONE VERSION of the New Testament - Matthew to Revelation, 27 books.

If the Catholic Church wasn’t responsible for compiling the NT, who was?

didnt say they didnt but they also corrupted the text, kept it from the people, burnt it when it suited them, killed any one who wanted to publish it and give it to the people, like I said,, God can use what is meant for evil for good. Do you really want me to join with the antichrist and believe a lie just to make you happy.

 

[FollowHim]

The Catholic Church claims to be the one, true Church … because she is.If the Catholic Church has gone “astray”, that means Jesus failed to keep His promise that “the gates of hell would not prevail against” His Church. A Church that has gone “astray” is one that has been defeated by Satan. After many years of studying many different denominations and approaches to Christianity, the Holy Spirit guided me to the one, true Church - the Catholic Church. The best way to know Christ is through His Church, since His Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15) and the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23). It is through His Church - not merely the Scriptures - that the following is achieved:
”For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, until we all attain “the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; ; so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive” (Eph 4:4-14).

Israel was in the vine but they became rejected. If promises apply to a group despite their behaviour the Lord has left them.

The power of human nature to conform to the group without understanding does not provide truth or authority. It is a survival instinct. Jesus told us to follow Him we must hate such conformity. It is why the world is lost, bound in sin. It is also how loyalty to a group is so embedded in belief despite obviously weird beliefs.

People will commit suicide than oppose such loyalty. If you cannot see this far, then what I share will bounce off.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You recommend what Paul said, but then you do exactly what he said NOT to do! You claim you are already saved, which in effect is to “pronounce judgement before the time” - Paul clearly preaches against this:
“It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore DO NOT PRONOUNCE JUDGEMENT BEFORE THE TIME, BEFORE THE LORD COMES, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendations from God.” (1Cor 4:4-5).

Paul also said we are “being saved” (1Cor 1:18), meaning salvation is a process.

This verse says salvation comes at “the end” of life:
”He who endures until the end will be saved” (Matt 10:22).

This passage says we are saved when Jesus comes again - ie, not now, but in the future.
"And just as it appointed for men to die once, after that comes judgement; so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but save those who are eagerly awaiting Him" (Hebrews 9:27-28).

If you base your theology on just one verse, taken out of context, you are going to end up with illogical, false and unbiblical doctrine. You need to consider the whole body of Scripture, not just bits and pieces that tickle your fancy. Really? What are these “many means of atonement”?
Oh, so you don't need to do anything? Neither baptism nor to have faith?

Titus 3. Have saved us

1 John. Have eternal life

Eph 2. Have been save

Rom 8. We were saved

2 Tim 2. Has saved us

just a few all over scripture

yeah the whole word, I agree