The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, the brethren are the church. Not the same church we see today.

So many times I see disputing over what James letter is stating, my question is

Whom is his audience?

To Jews, saved and unsaved

I think alot of Jews, who found their freedom went from one extreme to the next extreme, From legalism to licentiousness. Thinking all they had to do was believe (a term I use lightly) and wam, they are saved, and now can live however they want.

That's why James told the people who wrote to to examine themselves. He either knew or heard there were some who did not take God seriously, and thought that just because they played the game and believed they were saved. James is showing them, if they claim to have faith, But they still act like the world (have no works) are they really saved?

His answer, is no..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, the brethren are the church. Not the same church we see today.

I agree with this prety much, We see much more legalistic, self righteous gospels being taught in our churches then we see licentiousness

Although I know we still have these people in our churches.. and they need the same message

 

[Waiting on him]

I agree with this prety much, We see much more legalistic, self righteous gospels being taught in our churches then we see licentiousness

Although I know we still have these people in our churches.. and they need the same message

Can we take the spoiling of our goods joyfully. When the primary message seems to be, increase your goods.

My understanding is the church there in Jerusalem that James was overseeing was literally starving.

 

[FollowHim]

My opinion is James is only implying works will be a product of salvation, and the letter was written in perilous times.

James was concerned with people who knew theology, claimed to know love, but when an opportunity to show love, failed to do so, suggesting the words did not reflect a true born again heart alive in God.

You could suggest when a saint sins, if they are not grieved and hurt, then repentance and a desire to walk in the way of Jesus are not part of their life. It is like a psychopath saying they care for people, yet when someone blocks what they want to do, they have no problem destroying them, without a glimmer of pain or guilt. If we cannot get out of our own self interest into the heart and feelings of another, how can be love them, or empathise or feel the pain that drives their sinful behaviour.

A slave to sin is not a free being who chooses what they do, but rather driven by their responses and emotional needs must drive on and destroy all opposition that comes their way.

Easy believism ignores this reality, and claims the lost are saved even when continuing bound to their sinful behaviour and attitudes.
Some claim all are actually hypocrites, and none ever find grace and the walk of Jesus. Except Paul did, he followed Jesus's example and calls us to follow his example. God bless you.

 

[Dave M]

If I die today, my hope is that I will be judged by Christ be worthy (Rev 3:4) of salvation ... but only Christ knows if I will be saved. I cannot judge myself - if you think you can, you are deluded.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

 

[Waiting on him]

James was concerned with people who knew theology, claimed to know love, but when an opportunity to show love, failed to do so, suggesting the words did not reflect a true born again heart alive in God.

You could suggest when a saint sins, if they are not grieved and hurt, then repentance and a desire to walk in the way of Jesus are not part of their life. It is like a psychopath saying they care for people, yet when someone blocks what they want to do, they have no problem destroying them, without a glimmer of pain or guilt. If we cannot get out of our own self interest into the heart and feelings of another, how can be love them, or empathise or feel the pain that drives their sinful behaviour.

A slave to sin is not a free being who chooses what they do, but rather driven by their responses and emotional needs must drive on and destroy all opposition that comes their way.

Easy believism ignores this reality, and claims the lost are saved even when continuing bound to their sinful behaviour and attitudes.
Some claim all are actually hypocrites, and none ever find grace and the walk of Jesus. Except Paul did, he followed Jesus's example and calls us to follow his example. God bless you.

It truly is amazing to see Paul modeling Christ in all of the new testament epistles he wrote.


Galatians 4:14 KJV
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.


My wife had posted this scripture on the thread ( who are the sons of God ) yesterday, I believe this pretty much says it all.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Can we take the spoiling of our goods joyfully. When the primary message seems to be, increase your goods.

My understanding is the church there in Jerusalem that James was overseeing was literally starving.

yep. I agree, which is why paul asked for other churches to give them money.

I believe James was the earliest written epistle, this I believe it was written before much of what paul said was even written. Which is why I think he wrote a letter and sent it throughout all the roman empire to his brethren, to encourage and guide them, because there was already at that time problems which was not yet addressed.

I could be wrong

 

[Waiting on him]

yep. I agree, which is why paul asked for other churches to give them money.

I believe James was the earliest written epistle, this I believe it was written before much of what paul said was even written. Which is why I think he wrote a letter and sent it throughout all the roman empire to his brethren, to encourage and guide them, because there was already at that time problems which was not yet addressed.

I could be wrong

I believe you are spot on.

 

[Joseph77]

James said their faith was dead.

IF SO,
then simply quote James.
If not,
then stop saying that.

do you believe anyone in every church is saved?
James wrote a letter to those tribes, and many were his brothers and sisters
But to think they all were saved, would be a mistake on our part. Many parts of scripture are misinterpreted because we have this false concept that everyone reading or written to were true believers.
James said their faith was dead.
Show me one person who had non living faith and was given eternal life.

Show me one person who had non living faith IN JAMES.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

IF SO,
then simply quote James.
If not,
then stop saying that.


Shoe me one person who had non living faith IN JAMES.

James 1: 21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

why would he be telling people to receive a word which could save them, if they were already saved? And why would he be calling them deceived?

james 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Why would he be asking people if their faith apart from works could be saved, if there was no one there like that

and why would he be calling saved people foolish, Because they had mere belief only, Yet their claimed dead faith was dead because they had no works?

4 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?

since when are enemies of God called believers?

 

[Waiting on him]

One other thing I believe that needs to be addressed as pertaining to the social climate at the time Brother James wrote this inspired epistle, is that to be a Christian most likely would mean the religious rulers at the time could cease all your possessions.

 

[Joseph77]

We desire also for you, e.g., to receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your soul.
We desire also for you, e.g. to be a doer of the word, and not a hearer only, deceiving yourself.

So if you understand, if God grants you the understanding as He does for us, for James, for Paul, for Timothy, for little children,
then
you would not rail against those God has spared already.
Instead, you would thank God for them and for us, that we receive (and received) with meekness the implanted word, which is (and was) able to save our souls,
and you would give thanks to God in Jesus, that they and us are doers of the word, and not hearers only, thus not deceiving ourselves.

why would he be telling people to receive a word which could save them, if they were already saved? And why would he be calling them deceived?

Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

e.g., the traditional teachings about James, (same as the rest of Scripture) , is not true nor accurate, as indicated by your posts.

 

[Joseph77]

Show me one person who had non living faith IN JAMES.

Try , if you wish, Again, but this time without false traditional renditions of James.

We can gradually find out what James actually says, God's Way, God Willing.

 

[Waiting on him]

Try , if you wish, Again, but this time without false traditional renditions of James.

We can gradually find out what James actually says, God's Way, God Willing.

Who do you believe the man that penned the epistle of James was
Brother of Jesus
Son of Zebedee?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We desire also for you, e.g., to receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your soul.
We desire also for you, e.g. to be a doer of the word, and not a hearer only, deceiving yourself.

So if you understand, if God grants you the understanding as He does for us, for James, for Paul, for Timothy, for little children,
then
you would not rail against those God has spared already.
Instead, you would thank God for them and for us, that we receive (and received) with meekness the implanted word, which is (and was) able to save our souls,
and you would give thanks to God in Jesus, that they and us are doers of the word, and not hearers only, thus not deceiving ourselves.

Its your assumption God spared them

That is not found in the text. as I tried to show you,I would stop assuming things, especially since the wording used would not support what you assume

e.g., the traditional teachings about James, (same as the rest of Scripture) , is not true nor accurate, as indicated by your posts.

I have no idea what your talking about here. Many traditional teachings of the word are shown to be false. If not, we would all be catholic.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Try , if you wish, Again, but this time without false traditional renditions of James.

We can gradually find out what James actually says, God's Way, God Willing.

I did

And I did not use the false traditional teachings

Tradition would disagree with what I said, tradition says they were all saved. And at the very least. claimed James was teaching they could lose salvation by stopping work.

I hold to neither of those teachings. nor would I support them

Let me ask you this, Can a DEAD, LIFELESS faith or mere belief, save a person eternally?

if so. how?

 

[Joseph77]

I did

And I did not use the false traditional teachings

Tradition would disagree with what I said, tradition says they were all saved. And at the very least. claimed James was teaching they could lose salvation by stopping work.

I hold to neither of those teachings. nor would I support them

Let me ask you this, Can a DEAD, LIFELESS faith or mere belief, save a person eternally?

if so. how?

First, we'd have to go back to your post : post 3070

Step by step.
Where did you learn what you posted there ?

 

[Joseph77]

Its your assumption God spared them

You have not shown any assumption on my part yet,
unless
you mean my hope (not assumption) that you are spared and are seeking the truth.
This will be seen soon, one way or another,
I hope.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

First, we'd have to go back to your post : post 3070

Step by step.
Where did you learn what you posted there ?

I read the words, And interpreted them for what they mean.

As I suggest you should do.

that's why I asked how those people could be saved. Can you tell me how they could have been saved, yet still need to receive the words which could save them? That makes no sense to me, or the other question I asked you, which by the way, You have yet to answer me. is there a reason?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have not shown any assumption on my part yet,
unless
you mean my hope (not assumption) that you are spared and are seeking the truth.
This will be seen soon, one way or another,
I hope.

well lets see

I asked how they could have been saved.

1. You continue to appear to be saying they are saved,
2. You have never responded to me if they were or not, so I refer back to point 1.
3. your question to me was to show you unsaved people. and since you are still discussing with. You evidently assume they are not saved, at least I can see no other way to interpret this line of reasoning