Miracles and certain spiritual gifts

[reformed1689]

To whom are you responding?

The post I quoted.

 

[reformed1689]

reformed,

I do wish you would back quote so we know which poster you are referring to. Would you please be courteous to all of us in doing this?

To back quote, use the 'Reply' icon at the bottom right of a post.

Thanks,
Oz

I do backquote. You must have the user on ignore. If that's the case, the quote won't show up.

 

[amadeus]

Deut. 18:22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.​

I would propose that Knowledge and Faith are companions, -- i.e., we KNOW who Jesus is, and accept HIS PROMISES by FAITH. But apparently some purport complete "Faith", and zero "Knowledge".

FAITH in WHAT? I don't KNOW.
Bobby Jo

I agree! While we do live by faith in some things which we do not know, there are some things that we do know. As we grow toward God our knowledge is increased in places replacing that which was followed or believed only by faith. Only when and if our knowledge were to become complete, would faith no longer be necessary. In spite of what some may say or teach, I have yet to encounter a single person who I know for certain was already there... no longer needing faith at all.

 

[amadeus]

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about other than taking verses completely out of context.

Unfortunately, I really did not expect you to understand. You are seemingly stuck in a stagnating groove. I am praying for you!

 

[reformed1689]

Unfortunately, I really did not expect you to understand. You are seemingly stuck in a stagnating groove. I am praying for you!

No I understand. What I understand is you have very little grasp on anything biblical and just your own mixed up beliefs.

 

[Bobby Jo]

I agree! While we do live by faith in some things which we do not know, there are some things that we do know. ...

... and I would propose that those things we KNOW, help build FAITH in the things in don't yet know. :)

Bobby Jo

 

[reformed1689]

I agree! While we do live by faith in some things which we do not know, there are some things that we do know. As we grow toward God our knowledge is increased in places replacing that which was followed or believed only by faith. Only when and if our knowledge were to become complete, would faith no longer be necessary. In spite of what some may or teach, I have yet to encounter a single person who I know for certain was already there... no longer needing faith at all.

So who is arguing for no faith at all???

 

[amadeus]

No I understand. What I understand is you have very little grasp on anything biblical and just your own mixed up beliefs.

So you have thus decided because you disagree with my understanding. One of these days, hopefully, you will allow the Holy Spirit and scripture to lead you to a better understanding of what God desires of you instead of using so much human logic and the clichés you have learned to secure what you have decided.

 

[amadeus]

... and I would propose that those things we KNOW, help build FAITH in the things in don't yet know. :)

Bobby Jo

And one thing that we know could or would be to lean not on our own understanding. Do we know the difference between our own understanding and the understanding of God within us?

 

[Bobby Jo]

..Do we know the difference between our own understanding and the understanding of God within us?

It seems to me that before we claim "hearing voices", we should simply OBEY what Scripture clearly states. And if the two agree, then maybe there's a path forward. However, if Scripture DISAGREES, then our "hearing" is not of GOD.

So are you going to obey Lke 22:35-36, or do you hear a "different" voice?

Bobby Jo

 

[amadeus]

It seems to me that before we claim "hearing voices", we should simply OBEY what Scripture clearly states. And if the two agree, then maybe there's a path forward. However, if Scripture DISAGREES, then our "hearing" is not of GOD.

So are you going to obey Lke 22:35-36, or do you hear a "different" voice?

Bobby Jo

Are we sheep in His flock or not?

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:3-5

Hearing His voice does not necessarily mean an audible voice although that could be included. What the scripture clearly states to one is not what it states to another, is it? Who is the Interpreter?

Does not just about every denominational or non-denominational group of labeled Christians have its well versed Bible students or leaders? Why then are there so many of them [40 to 50 thousand is what I have heard]? So many and perhaps most of them base their beliefs or doctrines on many of the same verses and/or even on the same Bibles. Where is the "one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God" for them all as if they all were coming into "the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"?

All of those mixtures and confusions and conclusions and you would focus on your one favorite subject here in these verses:

"And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:35-36

And then...

"And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough." Luke 22:38

So go ahead if you must according to your calling take hold of one of those two swords... for Jesus did say, "It is enough". Just two as two ears and two eyes and two hands and two feet, etc. would be enough for a natural body or...? This, of course, is assuming that there really a "calling to the wield the sword" rather than some other spiritual meaning, which you have either ignored or not seen. Don't be then what would be for those who do know His voice, a stranger's voice expecting to be recognized. Are you the Head calling to a foot or to a 'wielder of a sword' or you more like the stranger trying to usurp the work of the Head?

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." I Cor 12:12

"For the body is not one member, but many.
If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?" I Cor 12:14-17

So then [if you and any others really were called to be the wielder of one of those two swords], don't be expecting us to come and struggle with you for that sword or for the second sword as if everyone's calling by God was the same... as if all of those called by the Lord were to be "hands" to wield the carnal swords of men!

Again leave the calling to the Head. Do you really believe that you were called by God to be a 'sword wielder'? Then stick to that calling and leave alone that which is not your role as a part of the Body of Christ.

Since you are not the Head, nor am I, should we not be leaving the calling of everyone else to Jesus and to the one, each one, being called... be they foot, or hand, or eye or some other part... to another function of the Body of Christ!

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ..." I Cor 11:3

And then with regard to gifts...

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Rom 11:29

What does that mean? Would it not mean that when a man receives a particular calling from God it is his unchanging calling? Don't insist that the foot made to walk must also be the hand to wield a sword... Don't be that stranger who is not recognized by the sheep! Let the devil take that role for his own...

 

[Bobby Jo]

....

"And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:35-36​

And then...

"And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough." Luke 22:38​

...

By inference, you demand that the Disciples also took a PURSE and a BAG to the Garden, for what? -- A PURSE to bribe the officials? A BAG with a pillow and blankets so they would be comfortable while sitting in jail?

But the PURSE, BAG, and SWORD are NOT guidance for the Garden. It's guidance for LIFE.

Unless I'm wrong and they TRIED TO BRIBE the officials with their PURSE, and TRIED TO BE COMFORTABLE while in jail with their BAG, then YOU need to OBEY Jesus' final instructions! :)

So OBEY.
Bobby Jo

 

[Enoch111]

No I understand. What I understand is you have very little grasp on anything biblical and just your own mixed up beliefs.

I don't believe that is a fair assessment of Amadeus. He generally speaks the truth in love, but he is not mixed up at all. We all are to judge righteously.

 

[OzSpen]

They are the sign gifts. They are no longer needed.

reformed,

Go to Peru as a missionary and proclaim the Gospel among those practising spiritism and you'll soon realise you need to cry out to God for the gift of casting out demons.

Go to deprived countries with limited medical facilities and you'll understand the need for God-given miracles.

Your cessationism is the obstacle to opening up God's gifts to everyone in the 21st century church.

Oz

 

[amadeus]

By inference, you demand that the Disciples also took a PURSE and a BAG to the Garden, for what? -- A PURSE to bribe the officials? A BAG with a pillow and blankets so they would be comfortable while sitting in jail?

But the PURSE, BAG, and SWORD are NOT guidance for the Garden. It's guidance for LIFE.

Unless I'm wrong and they TRIED TO BRIBE the officials with their PURSE, and TRIED TO BE COMFORTABLE while in jail with their BAG, then YOU need to OBEY Jesus' final instructions! :)

So OBEY.
Bobby Jo

I infer nothing. I very simply strive to understand and obey God! Who is your head?

 

[Paul Christensen]

One thing that I learned recently which changed my perspective on the Scripture, "My sheep know My voice". When I read it in context, and compared it with the verse in Hebrews where it says, "When you hear my voice, don't harden your hearts", I started to believe that the Lord is speaking about people hearing His voice through the preaching of the Gospel. The verse in Romans comes to mind, "How will they hear without a preacher?", with the passage ending with "Faith comes by hearing the Word of God".

What this appears to me is that those whom the Father gives to Jesus, whose names are written in the Book of Life, through the foreknowledge of God, are Jesus' "sheep", and when the gospel is preached to them, they will know it and respond, giving their lives to Christ. If someone comes along preaching another gospel which is not the gospel of Christ, that person will be a stranger to him because they won't recognise the voice of Jesus through the man.

John Flavell, the most well known Puritan evangelist spoke of the voice of the Holy Spirit coming through the gospel, and when He speaks through the preaching of the gospel, it is irresistible, and the gospel could be preached 99 times with little or no response, but when the voice of the Holy Spirit comes through the preaching, there is an amazing response of people turning to the Lord - because they have heard, not just the preacher's words, but the voice of the Holy Spirit coming through them.

We all have had that experience of hearing a preacher and thinking, "That was a good sermon", and going away unchanged. But then a preach may preach and Jesus becomes real to us and the voice of the Holy Spirit through the sermon transforms us and we remember that sermon for the rest of our lives.

Willie Mullan, the famous Irish evangelist, told of his conversion as a delinquent youth. An old preacher conducted a crusade in his town, and preached for three weeks without one single conversion to Christ. on his last Sunday, Willie was in the meeting, and the preacher preached, "What will you do when Jesus comes again?" Willie was unmoved. But as he crossed the common on his way home, he heard God's voice to him saying, "What will YOU do when I come again?" Willie was converted to Christ on the spot, and went on to become an evangelist, bringing multitudes to Christ through his ministry. He contacted that old man later and greatly encouraged him when Willie told him of his conversion and the many souls that were saved as a result.

 

[reformed1689]

So you have thus decided because you disagree with my understanding. One of these days, hopefully, you will allow the Holy Spirit and scripture to lead you to a better understanding of what God desires of you instead of using so much human logic and the clichés you have learned to secure what you have decided.

You aren't using the Holy Spirit, you are using your own mystical thinking.

 

[reformed1689]

reformed,

Go to Peru as a missionary and proclaim the Gospel among those practising spiritism and you'll soon realise you need to cry out to God for the gift of casting out demons.

Go to deprived countries with limited medical facilities and you'll understand the need for God-given miracles.

Your cessationism is the obstacle to opening up God's gifts to everyone in the 21st century church.

Oz

Actually I didn't say there wasn't casting out Demons.

 

[reformed1689]

I don't believe that is a fair assessment of Amadeus. He generally speaks the truth in love, but he is not mixed up at all. We all are to judge righteously.

Of course he is mixed up in doctrine. So I don't care if you think it is fair.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I don't believe that is a fair assessment of Amadeus. He generally speaks the truth in love, but he is not mixed up at all. We all are to judge righteously.

Sorry, you're sorely mistaken, he's mixed up big time. Do you also endorse the Christ and religion of Mormonism?