Miracles and certain spiritual gifts

[bbyrd009]

I emphasize it because it is so written. Jesus saw the man's need and touched his eyes again. How many times do we need to have our eyes touched? How many times will we have our eyes touched? How many of us have eyes?

yeh, and how many have managed to pluck their right eye out?

 

[amadeus]

yeh, and how many have managed to pluck their right eye out?

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matt 5:29

To avoid hell [Gehenna] is it? If one plucks his eye out so as not to be cast into hell, what is his conclusion? Does he get a new eye or eyes?

What happened to Paul when Ananias touched him? [Acts 9] What happened to the Syrian army when Elisha prayed? [II Kings 6:18]

Seems the vision or the lack thereof is quite important. Why or why not?

"Where there is no vision, the people perish:..." Prov 29:18

 

[bbyrd009]

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matt 5:29

To avoid hell [Gehenna] is it? If one plucks his eye out so as not to be cast into hell, what is his conclusion? Does he get a new eye or eyes?

What happened to Paul when Ananias touched him? [Acts 9] What happened to the Syrian army when Elisha prayed? [II Kings 6:18]

Seems the vision or the lack thereof is quite important. Why or why not?

"Where there is no vision, the people perish:..." Prov 29:18

i would guess that its "right eye" specifically for...a specific reason?
What is...what does "right eye" symbolize iow

 

[reformed1689]

I emphasize it because it is so written. Jesus saw the man's need and touched his eyes again. How many times do we need to have our eyes touched? How many times will we have our eyes touched? How many of us have eyes?

It is not written that we cannot know anything with 100% certainty. That is your teaching, not Scripture.

 

[reformed1689]

he who says he knows, does not

I know there is a God.

Blows your statement out of the water.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Didn't say that. Just pointing out that you ALWAYS overly emphasize see through a glass darkly as if we cannot be 100% certain of anything...

Yep, unless he's teaching, then it's all divine revelation, "ex cathedra."

 

[Preacher4Truth]

he who says he knows, does not

How quaint.

Scripture says otherwise.

 

[Helen]

Makes me wonder if the usage of the gifts has decreased over time as the Church has weakened, and became more like the world and more and more into the Laodicean age.

...and, for the lack of teaching from the leadership . None ..or very few, even expect to be used in the gifts , because after salvation they get told that the gifts has ceased, so there is no expectancy within the church.

 

[bbyrd009]

I know there is a God.

Blows your statement out of the water.

ah well that was a Scripture Quote, sorry. So, as it applies to that, i would guess that maybe since "God" is such a generic address, maybe that God does not? Dunno. I think it's more about those who say they know a thing prolly

How quaint.

Scripture says otherwise.

ok ty. So, case in point maybe, which i wouldnt single you out necessarily, as it's something we all pretty much do? This making of factual statements that don't pan out the way we intended, and now how can you take that back, see, bc you didnt initially qualify it any kind of way? No "maybe" or "i think" or anything? So now you're left to attempt to defend, to stand iow, on a statement of "fact" that just wont hold up.

Satan is deemed liar, father of lies but we cant Quote any lies coming from Satan at all! Interesting corollary that, imo. Seems to point to "facts" as "the father of lies," at least thats my current theory? But i guess we'll see, as i have made two statements of "fact" here despite my supposed awareness of the phenom lol. Wanna be made out a liar? State a fact!

 

[Enoch111]

An unbeliever's stance and foolishness.

When someone who does not hold to proper Bible doctrine calls a Christian an "unbeliever", it is further confirmation that he has gone off the rails.

Since you have no clue about justification by grace through faith, perhaps that is where your focus should be. Not continue with your foolish Gnostic rants.

 

[OzSpen]

The Pentecostal prayer meeting is not a public meeting in the same sense as the public Sunday service. If you are hearing chaos in Pentecostal churches in your region, then they are not following Paul's teaching concerning tongues in public Sunday services. However, in my 50 years of being associated with Pentecostal churches and ministries, I have never witnessed chaos in any Pentecostal services or conferences I have attended. They have all been run decently and in order.

The only chaos that I have seen is in Youtube videos of Faith movement churches like Bethel where they have all sorts of kundalini out-of-control tongues, laughter, and other extremely wacky manifestations that I have never seen personally in the Pentecostal churches I have attended. I also have seen Benny Hinn services and those of Brownsville, and have my doubts about the things that have gone on in them. But NZ Pentecostal churches are very reserved and well controlled because of good, strong, sound leadership that does not accept the wacky, chaotic stuff.

Perhaps Aussie Pentecostals are more like American ones and tend to go over the top, if that what you have witnessed of them.

Paul,

A fellow who was in an AoG Bible College with me in the 1970s invited me to his ACC Church (new name for AoG) in a neighbouring suburb. When they they started to worship, it was chaos with most speaking or singing in tongues, but with no interpretation. I could not understand what was going on because of the violation of 1 Cor 14 and the need for interpretation in the public gathering.

I don't see or hear about any Pentecostal churches teaching about how the gifts of the Spirit ought to function in the church. They may be there, but are unknown to me in my region.

Oz

 

[Paul Christensen]

Paul,

A fellow who was in an AoG Bible College with me in the 1970s invited me to his ACC Church (new name for AoG) in a neighbouring suburb. When they they started to worship, it was chaos with most speaking or singing in tongues, but with no interpretation. I could not understand what was going on because of the violation of 1 Cor 14 and the need for interpretation in the public gathering.

I don't see or hear about any Pentecostal churches teaching about how the gifts of the Spirit ought to function in the church. They may be there, but are unknown to me in my region.

Oz

I totally understand.
I think it is because of the notion that the Holy Spirit takes precedence over the written word, and even though they know what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14, they choose to ignore it because they believe if the Holy Spirit moves on them to speak in tongues during a service then that is more true to them than what is clearly written in the Word. They would take the attitude that Paul meant it for the Corinthians but not necessarily "for us". It is this precedence of the moving of the Holy Spirit over the written Word that has given rise to "new" revelations that are not mentioned in the New Testament and which are leading people astray like what we see from people like Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn.

My wife (who is not Pentecostal) and I attended our daughter's baptism at an AOG church, and there were many speaking in tongues in the service. My wife asked me, "Are those people speaking in tongues?" and I said, "Yep!" She said, "It's not my cup of tea." But she knows that I speak in tongues, because when I, as the father, gave an Abrahamic blessing as my daughter came up out of the water, it came out as a tongues and interpretation! My wife never said a word about it afterward!

I remember, in 1969, I went to a Pentecostal church in my home town, and they spent most of the service singing in tongues. I found it the most boring service I had ever been to, and I never went back there. I would never have invited an unbeliever there. It would have put them right off, and would clearly make Paul's words in 1 Corinthians quite true!

I never speak in tongues publicly, because I have the attitude that it is very holy enhancement to my private fellowship with God, and I keep it that way.

 

[amadeus]

It is not written that we cannot know anything with 100% certainty. That is your teaching, not Scripture.

Are you then living for God by knowledge instead of by faith? How do you know the difference between the knowledge you do have and that which is incomplete or even in error in yourself?


"...now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
When did you arrive at the point where you know as He knows?

Don't you live by faith until Jesus is finished with it in you?

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;..." Heb 12:2
When did Jesus finish your faith?

"... The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

If you live for God by knowledge instead of by faith, does mean that you are not just, or does it mean that you know what God knows?

 

[Bobby Jo]

...
If you live for God by knowledge instead of by faith, does mean that you are not just, or does it mean that you know what God knows?

Deut. 18:22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.​

I would propose that Knowledge and Faith are companions, -- i.e., we KNOW who Jesus is, and accept HIS PROMISES by FAITH. But apparently some purport complete "Faith", and zero "Knowledge".

FAITH in WHAT? I don't KNOW.
Bobby Jo

 

[reformed1689]

Are you then living for God by knowledge instead of by faith? How do you know the difference between the knowledge you do have and that which is incomplete or even in error in yourself?


"...now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
When did you arrive at the point where you know as He knows?

Don't you live by faith until Jesus is finished with it in you?

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;..." Heb 12:2
When did Jesus finish your faith?

"... The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

If you live for God by knowledge instead of by faith, does mean that you are not just, or does it mean that you know what God knows?

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about other than taking verses completely out of context.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about other than taking verses completely out of context.

Yes. It is important that we use verses of Scripture in context. The question I had when I read his post (and I wouldn't have been as hard on him), was that where does faith come from? And the answer that came to me right away was:

"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:14-17).

I have had debates with people who have argued that faith comes by hearing a voice speaking to them by direct revelation. I have disagreed with them by saying that God always speaks through His written Word, but I couldn't provide real proof until I read this passage in Romans, and saw the context.

The context speaks of hearing the Word of God preached; in other words, it is the preaching of the gospel of Christ as shown through the written Word. Paul says, "How can they hear without a preacher?" This means that Paul is saying that people don't come to belief in Christ through some mental voice giving them direct revelation. It comes through a preacher's expository preaching of the Scripture, showing through the written Scripture what the gospel really means. So, in this sense, faith comes through hearing the Word of God preached in expository form from a preacher.

Therefore, the true knowledge of the Gospel comes through expository preaching as John MacArthur does it. Viewing his video messages has increased by faith no end, because he preaches the Word of God from the Scriptures as Paul said it should be in order to increase faith.

So, the argument between knowledge and faith is a bit of a misnomer (apologies to my friend Amadeus) because faith comes through the knowledge of God's written word as preached by an expository preacher.

That is why reading Spurgeon's sermons has also increased my faith, because he just knew how to unpack a verse of Scripture in context to put one in absolutely no doubt about what God was saying through it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Thanks for your opinion

This is one piece of useful off-topic information just for you and the rest of our Aussie mates. I heard in the news that beer manufacturers are having to dump their beer reserves because it can't be sold. For you Aussies and us Kiwis that would be tantamount to almost sacrilege! If it was in either of our two countries, what they should do is to offer the beer free, and all those beer lovers in OZ and NuZild could line up 2 metres apart with their flagons, and fill up with free beer! Would that be the ANZAC way? :)

Teetotallers need not debate this. It is just a bit of fun for us down under according to our distinctive sense of humour.

[/QUOTE]

 

[OzSpen]

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about other than taking verses completely out of context.

reformed,

I do wish you would back quote so we know which poster you are referring to. Would you please be courteous to all of us in doing this?

To back quote, use the 'Reply' icon at the bottom right of a post.

Thanks,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

This is one piece of useful off-topic information just for you and the rest of our Aussie mates. I heard in the news that beer manufacturers are having to dump their beer reserves because it can't be sold. For you Aussies and us Kiwis that would be tantamount to almost sacrilege! If it was in either of our two countries, what they should do is to offer the beer free, and all those beer lovers in OZ and NuZild could line up 2 metres apart with their flagons, and fill up with free beer! Would that be the ANZAC way? :)

Teetotallers need not debate this. It is just a bit of fun for us down under according to our distinctive sense of humour.

[/QUOTE]

Paul,

What an idea. I'm blessed to remember our fallen diggers from WW1 where we lost at Gallipoli in 1915-16.

The Gallipoli campaign was a costly failure for the Allies, with an estimated 27,000 French, and 115,000 British and dominion troops (Great Britain and Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, India, and Newfoundland) killed or wounded. Over half these casualties (73,485) were British and Irish troops. New Zealand suffered around 8000 killed and wounded, about 5.6 percent of Allied casualties on Gallipoli. The Ottoman Empire paid a heavy price for their victory: an estimated 250,000 Turkish and Arab troops were killed or wounded defending Gallipoli (source).​

Those stats are from a NZ govt source online.

My Dad fought in PNG in WW2 and returned to sire me.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It is not written that we cannot know anything with 100% certainty. That is your teaching, not Scripture.

To whom are you responding?