The Holy Trinity

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Guestman

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Wow, Guestman, that was impressive.

(As a new Bible studier, esp.)
:) Miss Hepburn

(Reached my quota of clicking a 'positive', wouldn't let me today.

Miss Hepburn,

There is the vital need of accurate knowledge of the Bible. If one were to use a map in which the street names were either misassigned to their respective streets or altered so as to confuse or even cause people to become lost, would this map being of any value ? We probably would feel that we would be better off without it. Of the Bible, the requirement for accuracy is of far greater importance, for a person's everlasting life is at stake.

The apostle Paul wrote to the Philippians, that "this is what I continue praying, that your love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge (“in accurate knowledge.” Greek, en e‧pi‧gno′sei; ) and full discernment; that you may make sure of the more important things, so that you may be flawless and not be stumbling others up to the day of Christ, and may be filled with righteous fruit, which is through Jesus Christ, to God’s glory and praise."(Phil 1:9-11, New World Translation) Thus, in order to fully please God and show love that imitates him, there is the necessity to have an accurate Bible translation that bring forth what is written down as "inspired of God."(2 Tim 3:16)

Paul further wrote to the Ephesians that "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him;"(Eph 1:17, New World Translation) Hence, God wishes for everyone to have "accurate knowledge (“accurate knowledge.” Greek, e‧pi‧gno′sei; ) of him", not just knowledge ("knowledge", Greek gnosis). To start with, this requires that a person know him by his personal name of Jehovah, which is in the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the "Old Testament") over 6,800 times.(Ps 83:18)
 
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rob

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Guestman

Paul further wrote to the Ephesians that "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him;"(Eph 1:17, New World Translation) Hence, God wishes for everyone to have "accurate knowledge "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ,


rob

- the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the full knowledge of him; the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, “(Eph 1:17-18),
In incarnation the Lord Jesus Christ, God Himself (Phil. 2:6), became a man. As a man He is related to God’s creation; therefore, God the Creator is His God. His incarnation brought God the creator into man, God’s creature. He is a man in whom God is incarnated
The title Father implies regeneration, and glory is God expressed. Hence the Father of glory is the regenerating God expressed through His many sons. We believers have already been regenerated (1 Pet. 1:3), and we will be glorified in the expression of God’s glory (Rom. 8:30).
The spirit here must be our regenerated spirit indwelt by the Spirit of God. Such a spirit is given to us by God that we may have wisdom and revelation to know Him and His economy.
Wisdom is in our spirit that we may know the mystery of God, and revelation is of God’s Spirit that He may show us the vision by opening the veil. First, we have wisdom, the ability to understand, which enables us to know spiritual things; then the Spirit of God reveals the spiritual things to our spiritual understanding,

(V. 18), eyes to see the spiritual things. We have wisdom, the ability to know, and revelation, the revealing of spiritual things. However, we still need eyes, the spiritual faculty of sight (Acts 26:18; Rev. 3:18).

To have the eyes of our heart enlightened requires that our conscience, mind, emotion, and will, which are the components of our heart, be thoroughly dealt with. First, we need an open spirit with a conscience purified by our confessing and dealing with our sins and by the sprinkling of the redeeming blood of Christ (Heb. 9:14); 10:22)).
Next, we need a sober mind (2 Tim. 1:7), a loving emotion (John 14:21), and a submissive will (John 7:17) in order to have a pure heart. When we have such a spiritual heart, the eyes of our heart will be able to see.
We not only need wisdom, revelation, and eyes to see, but we also need light for the illumination of the things, which are unveiled to us, that we may have a vision.

The hope of God’s calling includes (1) Christ Himself and the salvation He will bring to us when He comes back (Col. 1:27); 1 Pet. 1:5, 9); (2) the rapturous transfer from the earthly and physical realm to the heavenly and spiritual sphere, plus glorification (Rom. 8:23-25. 30; Phil. 3:21); (3) the kingly enjoyment with Christ in the millennium (Rev. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:18); and (4) the consummate enjoyment of Christ in the New Jerusalem, with the universal and eternal blessings in the new heaven and new earth (Rev.21:1-7; 22:1-5).

God’s calling is the sum total of all the blessings listed in vv. 3-14: God the Father’s selection and pre-destination, God the Son’s redemption, and God the Spirit’s sealing and pledging. When we were called, we participated in the Father’s selection and pre-destination. The Son’s redemption, and the Spirit’s sealing and pledging.
 

logabe

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Rev. 1:8,

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the
Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Question...If JESUS is not the ALMIGHTY...then who is?

Isa. 12:2,

2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for Jehovah, [even] Jehovah, is my strength and song; and he
is become my salvation.


How did God become our salvation?

He became a man in order to qualify as our near kinsman. He
couldn't qualify as an angel or as God, because He gave authority
to man in Gen. 1:26,

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over
all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon
the earth.


Hence, after His Ascension, His desciples doubted that He was
God. So...Jesus made the statement in Mathew 28:17-18,

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some
doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power
is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


...and that my friends is how God became our Salvation.

What a plan!


Logabe
 

rob

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Sep 2, 2009
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Rev. 1:8,

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the
Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Question...If JESUS is not the ALMIGHTY...then who is?

Isa. 12:2,

2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for Jehovah, [even] Jehovah, is my strength and song; and he
is become my salvation.


How did God become our salvation?

He became a man in order to qualify as our near kinsman. He
couldn't qualify as an angel or as God, because He gave authority
to man in Gen. 1:26,

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over
all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon
the earth.


Hence, after His Ascension, His desciples doubted that He was
God. So...Jesus made the statement in Mathew 28:17-18,

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some
doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power
is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


...and that my friends is how God became our Salvation.

What a plan!


Logabe




Amen my Brother Logabe,of course The Lord Jesus Christ is the Triune God!

This wonderful Person, the Lord Jesus Christ; He alone is worthy of ALL our love and devotion.

There is none other in this universe! Praise His wonderful, lovely, and beautiful and precious name. How could we not love such a wonderful Person.

Everything else in this universe is JUNK! He alone is our full satisfaction! There is nothing or anyone else in this universe that can fulfil all the heart desire of man!

The marvellous Triune God went through a wonderful process- incarnation- perfect human living- gave Himself to death; (the most cruel death for us unworthy creatures). Conquered death in resurrection - Ascended to the Father - returned as the Life-giving Spirit - then enters into those who simply believe into Him. He brings into His believers (lovers) all that He has accomplished making us (the believers) His own brothers and actual sons of God!



Satan brought everything of His evil life and nature into us all at the fall, He is our father until we come to Christ.

Satan hates this wonderful Christ that is why men full of unbelief murdered Him. From the beginning Satan continues to hate this wonderful Person the Lord Jesus Christ and will use every subtle deception to deny Him. To deny His divinity is to deny this glorious Person. To love Him is to know Him.

When we know Him we know the Father. If we don’t know Him we do not know the Father.
When we honour Him we honour the Father. If we do not honour Him we do not honour the Father.
When we love Him we love the Father. If we do not love Him we do not love the Father.

To have, know, honour and love Him (This precious Lord Jesus Christ); a man becomes the most blessed person in the universe!
 

Guestman

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In refusing to bow down and do one act of worship to Satan, Jesus quoting from Deuteronomy 5:9, told him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service ["sacred service", Greek word la·treu´seis ].’”(Matt 4:10) Or as the King James Bible reads: "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Hence, no one, not even Jesus was to receive worship, but only "the Lord thy God."

And why ? Because Jesus himself acknowledged that he is not God, but rather his "only-begotten Son of God"(John 3:18), who was "taught" by his heavenly Father (John 8:28), who always does the things pleasing to him (John 8:29), who did not speak or teach of his originality, but rather taught what "belongs to" God (John 7:16), who "came forth from God and was going to God" upon his resurrection (John 13:3), who prayed: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me" while on the torture stake (Matt 27:46).
 

rob

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Sep 2, 2009
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Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father. However, they also teach that before His earthly life, Jesus was a spirit creature, Michael the archangel, who was created by God and became the Messiah at His baptism. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus is a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is “a god,” but not “the God.” They teach that Jesus “was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah” and that “Christ and God are not coequal”.
Does the Bible confirm their beliefs, or does it teach the orthodox Christian concept that Christ is God? This is an extremely important question. Consider the following points:


The Christ of the New Testament is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.
· Isaiah wrote about seeing Jehovah in Isaiah 6:1-10.
· In John 12:31-42, we are told that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory and spoke of Him
· In Exodus 34:14 we are to worship no one but Jehovah.
· In Hebrews 1:6 the angels worship Christ.
· In Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is called the first and the last (confirmed in Revelation 1:8),
· but in Revelation 22:13 Christ is the first and the last.

These verses demonstrate that the name “Jehovah” is used for both God the Father and of God the Son. Although they are distinct persons they are each called “Jehovah” because they each possess deity.

2. The deity of Christ is taught in Scripture.
In Matthew 1:23, Christ is called “Immanuel,” which means “God with us.”
When Thomas touched Jesus' wounds, after the resurrection, he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some JW’s say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said “my Lord,” but was referring to God (Jehovah) when he said “my God.” Instead, Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God. And Christ did not correct him! Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ when it states that in Him “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” (New World Translation). Stephen called Jesus “Lord” (Acts 7:59,60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; I Cor. 12:3). “Lord” in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It is evident from this that Christ the Lord (kurios) is Jehovah God.

3. Attributes of Christ show that He is God
Jesus Christ knows all things (John 1:48; 2:25; 6:64; 14:30; 21:17). He is all-powerful (Matt. 28:18; Heb. 1:3), sinless (John 8:46), eternal (Mic. 5:2), and unchanging (Heb. 13:8). Since only God possesses these attributes, Christ must be God.

4. Certain works of Christ show that He is God.
Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7; Eph. 1:7), give eternal life (John 10:28; 17:2), judge the world (John 5:22, 27), and control nature (Matt. 8:26). Since only God can do these things, Christ must be God.

5. Christ received worship as God.
Jesus is worshipped by the angels (Heb. 1:6) and by man (Matt. 14:33), and yet only God is to be worshipped (Ex. 34:14). Christ Himself said that worship is due to God alone (Matt. 4:10), and yet He accepted worship. If Jesus in His pre-existent state were the archangel Michael, how could He have received worship, since angels are not allowed to receive worship (Rev. 19:10)? If Christ were not God, then worshipping Him would be idolatrous.

6. Jesus Christ is called “the mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6.
JW’s have a ready answer for this verse. They explain that Christ is “the mighty god.” but not “the almighty.” They say that Christ is the mighty, never the almighty and that Jehovah is the almighty God, never the mighty. However, Jeremiah 32:18 shows that Jehovah is the mighty One. Therefore, since Christ is the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and Jehovah is the mighty God (Jer. 32:18), they are both God. They both possess full deity.

7. Christ is God, the Creator of all things according to Colossians 1:15-17.
JW’s refer to this passage to support their teaching that Christ was created by Jehovah (for example, Let God Be True, p.35). This is based primarily on the words, “the firstborn of all creation,” in verse 15. However, if this verse was teaching that Jesus Christ is the first created being made by God, the word “first-created” would have been used of Christ, not the word “firstborn.” These are two different words in the Greek, with two different meanings. “First-created” is protoktistos, and “firstborn” is prototokos. Colossians 1:15 does not use the protoktistos, “first-created.” Instead it uses prototokos, which means an heir, a begotten one, the first in rank. The teaching of Colossians 1:15 is that Christ is first in rank above all creation; He is the Heir of all things. He is prior to all creation and superior over it.
The JW’s New World Translation adds the word “other” four times in Colossians 1:15-17, so that the passage states that Christ created “all other things,” everything except Himself. However, there is no basis for adding “other.” It certainly does not occur in the Greek manuscripts. The translators of the New World Translation admit this by putting “other” in brackets. This “translation” attempts to comply with the assumption that firstborn means first-created. But, as shown, this is not the meaning of firstborn, and therefore it is also wrong to add the word “other.” There is no verse in the entire Bible that states that Christ was created by Jehovah!

8. Christ claimed to be equal with God in John 10:30.
JW’s believe that this verse, “I and the Father are one,” means that Christ was one with God the Father in purpose and not in nature and essence. However, if that was all Christ was saying, why did the Jews want to stone Him? They themselves thought His purpose was the same as God’s. Verse 33 of John 10 explains that they wanted to stone Him because of blasphemy, because He claimed to be God!
The deity of Christ is the central point of the Scriptures. It clearly teaches that Christ is God. The teachings of the Jehovah’s Witness' concerning Jesus Christ clearly contradict the teachings of the Bible. Passages such as Philippians 2:5-11 tell us that Jesus Christ, who existed as God, took the bodily form of a humble servant so that He could die on the cross in our place. “Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios), to the glory of God the Father.”



…ONCE AGAIN LET US INVESTIGATE THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father. However, they also teach that before His earthly life, Jesus was a spirit creature, Michael the archangel, who was created by God and became the Messiah at His baptism. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus is a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is “a god,” but not “the God.” They teach that Jesus “was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah” and that “Christ and God are not coequal”.
Does the Bible confirm their beliefs, or does it teach the orthodox Christian concept that Christ is God? This is an extremely important question. Consider the following points:

1. The Christ of the New Testament is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.
·
Isaiah wrote about seeing Jehovah in Isaiah 6:1-10.
·
In John 12:31-42, we are told that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory and spoke of Him
·
In Exodus 34:14 we are to worship no one but Jehovah.
·
In Hebrews 1:6 the angels worship Christ.
·
In Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is called the first and the last (confirmed in Revelation 1:8),
·
but in Revelation 22:13 Christ is the first and the last.


These verses demonstrate that the name “Jehovah” is used for both God the Father and of God the Son. Although they are distinct persons they are each called “Jehovah” because they each possess deity.

2. The deity of Christ is taught in Scripture.
In Matthew 1:23, Christ is called “Immanuel,” which means “God with us.”

When Thomas touched Jesus' wounds, after the resurrection, he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some JW’s say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said “my Lord,” but was referring to God (Jehovah) when he said “my God.” Instead, Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God. And Christ did not correct him! Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ when it states that in Him “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” (New World Translation). Stephen called Jesus “Lord” (Acts 7:59,60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; I Cor. 12:3). “Lord” in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It is evident from this that Christ the Lord (kurios) is Jehovah God.

3. Attributes of Christ show that He is God
Jesus Christ knows all things (John 1:48; 2:25; 6:64; 14:30; 21:17). He is all-powerful (Matt. 28:18; Heb. 1:3), sinless (John 8:46), eternal (Mic. 5:2), and unchanging (Heb. 13:8). Since only God possesses these attributes, Christ must be God.

4. Certain works of Christ show that He is God.
Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7; Eph. 1:7), give eternal life (John 10:28; 17:2), judge the world (John 5:22, 27), and control nature (Matt. 8:26). Since only God can do these things, Christ must be God.

5. Christ received worship as God.
Jesus is worshipped by the angels (Heb. 1:6) and by man (Matt. 14:33), and yet only God is to be worshipped (Ex. 34:14). Christ Himself said that worship is due to God alone (Matt. 4:10), and yet He accepted worship. If Jesus in His pre-existent state were the archangel Michael, how could He have received worship, since angels are not allowed to receive worship (Rev. 19:10)? If Christ were not God, then worshipping Him would be idolatrous.

6. Jesus Christ is called “the mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6.
JW’s have a ready answer for this verse. They explain that Christ is “the mighty god.” but not “the almighty.” They say that Christ is the mighty, never the almighty and that Jehovah is the almighty God, never the mighty. However, Jeremiah 32:18 shows that Jehovah is the mighty One. Therefore, since Christ is the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and Jehovah is the mighty God (Jer. 32:18), they are both God. They both possess full deity.

7. Christ is God, the Creator of all things according to Colossians 1:15-17.
JW’s refer to this passage to support their teaching that Christ was created by Jehovah (for example, Let God Be True, p.35). This is based primarily on the words, “the firstborn of all creation,” in verse 15. However, if this verse was teaching that Jesus Christ is the first created being made by God, the word “first-created” would have been used of Christ, not the word “firstborn.” These are two different words in the Greek, with two different meanings. “First-created” is protoktistos, and “firstborn” is prototokos. Colossians 1:15 does not use the protoktistos, “first-created.” Instead it uses prototokos, which means an heir, a begotten one, the first in rank. The teaching of Colossians 1:15 is that Christ is first in rank above all creation; He is the Heir of all things. He is prior to all creation and superior over it.
The JW’s New World Translation adds the word “other” four times in Colossians 1:15-17, so that the passage states that Christ created “all other things,” everything except Himself. However, there is no basis for adding “other.” It certainly does not occur in the Greek manuscripts. The translators of the New World Translation admit this by putting “other” in brackets. This “translation” attempts to comply with the assumption that firstborn means first-created. But, as shown, this is not the meaning of firstborn, and therefore it is also wrong to add the word “other.” There is no verse in the entire Bible that states that Christ was created by Jehovah!

8. Christ claimed to be equal with God in John 10:30.
JW’s believe that this verse, “I and the Father are one,” means that Christ was one with God the Father in purpose and not in nature and essence. However, if that was all Christ was saying, why did the Jews want to stone Him? They themselves thought His purpose was the same as God’s. Verse 33 of John 10 explains that they wanted to stone Him because of blasphemy, because He claimed to be God!

The deity of Christ is the central point of the Scriptures. It clearly teaches that Christ is God. The teachings of the Jehovah’s Witness' concerning Jesus Christ clearly contradict the teachings of the Bible. Passages such as Philippians 2:5-11 tell us that Jesus Christ, who existed as God, took the bodily form of a humble servant so that He could die on the cross in our place. “Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios), to the glory of God the Father.
 

rob

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Sep 2, 2009
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I would like to share a testimony: I have a blood brother on the other side of the world. We could not fellowshp in any way whatsoever on the things of the Lord or on anything in the Bible. Due to the fact that he

for many years had followed the teachings of the Watchtower and would not read anything else, saying that only the Watchtower organisation had the true interpretation of the Word of God. The bible being interpreted

by The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses which is the supreme ruling council of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Finally after much effort to try to understand one another, I suggested that we both read the Bible together, with neither of us making any comment. We decided to use the version that belongs to the Jehovah's

Witnesse's. It is the Ameican Standard Version and is now published by the WATCHTOWER AND TRACT BIBLE SOCIETY of NEW YORK. INC.

Three years ago we commenced reading for one hour per day by telephone, for me that is from 4am to 5am every morning; it was about 6pm to 7 pm in his place of abode.

My brother and I would read a number of chapters each day slowly, with no comment by either party.

Now after three years reading he wants me to comment on every verse and is now a redeemed and regenerated person. This is positive proof that God Himself is well able to save a person with His precious

Word alone.

Therefore I can only Praise, Bless and exalt this wonderful Christ for His mercy to my brother.
 

Miss Hepburn

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rob,
I have never heard a story like this - reading for years over the phone together and
then this end result. Amazing story.
:) Miss Hepburn
 

Guestman

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…ONCE AGAIN LET US INVESTIGATE THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father. However, they also teach that before His earthly life, Jesus was a spirit creature, Michael the archangel, who was created by God and became the Messiah at His baptism. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus is a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is “a god,” but not “the God.” They teach that Jesus “was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah” and that “Christ and God are not coequal”.
Does the Bible confirm their beliefs, or does it teach the orthodox Christian concept that Christ is God? This is an extremely important question. Consider the following points:
1. The Christ of the New Testament is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.
· Isaiah wrote about seeing Jehovah in Isaiah 6:1-10.
· In John 12:31-42, we are told that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory and spoke of Him
· In Exodus 34:14 we are to worship no one but Jehovah.
· In Hebrews 1:6 the angels worship Christ.
· In Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is called the first and the last (confirmed in Revelation 1:8),
· but in Revelation 22:13 Christ is the first and the last.
These verses demonstrate that the name “Jehovah” is used for both God the Father and of God the Son. Although they are distinct persons they are each called “Jehovah” because they each possess deity.
2. The deity of Christ is taught in Scripture.
In Matthew 1:23, Christ is called “Immanuel,” which means “God with us.”
When Thomas touched Jesus' wounds, after the resurrection, he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some JW’s say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said “my Lord,” but was referring to God (Jehovah) when he said “my God.” Instead, Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God. And Christ did not correct him! Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ when it states that in Him “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” (New World Translation). Stephen called Jesus “Lord” (Acts 7:59,60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; I Cor. 12:3). “Lord” in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It is evident from this that Christ the Lord (kurios) is Jehovah God.
3. Attributes of Christ show that He is God
Jesus Christ knows all things (John 1:48; 2:25; 6:64; 14:30; 21:17). He is all-powerful (Matt. 28:18; Heb. 1:3), sinless (John 8:46), eternal (Mic. 5:2), and unchanging (Heb. 13:8). Since only God possesses these attributes, Christ must be God.
4. Certain works of Christ show that He is God.
Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7; Eph. 1:7), give eternal life (John 10:28; 17:2), judge the world (John 5:22, 27), and control nature (Matt. 8:26). Since only God can do these things, Christ must be God.
5. Christ received worship as God.
Jesus is worshipped by the angels (Heb. 1:6) and by man (Matt. 14:33), and yet only God is to be worshipped (Ex. 34:14). Christ Himself said that worship is due to God alone (Matt. 4:10), and yet He accepted worship. If Jesus in His pre-existent state were the archangel Michael, how could He have received worship, since angels are not allowed to receive worship (Rev. 19:10)? If Christ were not God, then worshipping Him would be idolatrous.
6. Jesus Christ is called “the mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6.
JW’s have a ready answer for this verse. They explain that Christ is “the mighty god.” but not “the almighty.” They say that Christ is the mighty, never the almighty and that Jehovah is the almighty God, never the mighty. However, Jeremiah 32:18 shows that Jehovah is the mighty One. Therefore, since Christ is the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and Jehovah is the mighty God (Jer. 32:18), they are both God. They both possess full deity.
7. Christ is God, the Creator of all things according to Colossians 1:15-17.
JW’s refer to this passage to support their teaching that Christ was created by Jehovah (for example, Let God Be True, p.35). This is based primarily on the words, “the firstborn of all creation,” in verse 15. However, if this verse was teaching that Jesus Christ is the first created being made by God, the word “first-created” would have been used of Christ, not the word “firstborn.” These are two different words in the Greek, with two different meanings. “First-created” is protoktistos, and “firstborn” is prototokos. Colossians 1:15 does not use the protoktistos, “first-created.” Instead it uses prototokos, which means an heir, a begotten one, the first in rank. The teaching of Colossians 1:15 is that Christ is first in rank above all creation; He is the Heir of all things. He is prior to all creation and superior over it.
The JW’s New World Translation adds the word “other” four times in Colossians 1:15-17, so that the passage states that Christ created “all other things,” everything except Himself. However, there is no basis for adding “other.” It certainly does not occur in the Greek manuscripts. The translators of the New World Translation admit this by putting “other” in brackets. This “translation” attempts to comply with the assumption that firstborn means first-created. But, as shown, this is not the meaning of firstborn, and therefore it is also wrong to add the word “other.” There is no verse in the entire Bible that states that Christ was created by Jehovah!
8. Christ claimed to be equal with God in John 10:30.
JW’s believe that this verse, “I and the Father are one,” means that Christ was one with God the Father in purpose and not in nature and essence. However, if that was all Christ was saying, why did the Jews want to stone Him? They themselves thought His purpose was the same as God’s. Verse 33 of John 10 explains that they wanted to stone Him because of blasphemy, because He claimed to be God!
The deity of Christ is the central point of the Scriptures. It clearly teaches that Christ is God. The teachings of the Jehovah’s Witness' concerning Jesus Christ clearly contradict the teachings of the Bible. Passages such as Philippians 2:5-11 tell us that Jesus Christ, who existed as God, took the bodily form of a humble servant so that He could die on the cross in our place. “Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios), to the glory of God the Father.”


…ONCE AGAIN LET US INVESTIGATE THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father. However, they also teach that before His earthly life, Jesus was a spirit creature, Michael the archangel, who was created by God and became the Messiah at His baptism. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus is a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is “a god,” but not “the God.” They teach that Jesus “was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah” and that “Christ and God are not coequal”.
Does the Bible confirm their beliefs, or does it teach the orthodox Christian concept that Christ is God? This is an extremely important question. Consider the following points:
1. The Christ of the New Testament is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.
· Isaiah wrote about seeing Jehovah in Isaiah 6:1-10.
· In John 12:31-42, we are told that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory and spoke of Him
· In Exodus 34:14 we are to worship no one but Jehovah.
· In Hebrews 1:6 the angels worship Christ.
· In Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is called the first and the last (confirmed in Revelation 1:8),
· but in Revelation 22:13 Christ is the first and the last.
These verses demonstrate that the name “Jehovah” is used for both God the Father and of God the Son. Although they are distinct persons they are each called “Jehovah” because they each possess deity.
2. The deity of Christ is taught in Scripture.
In Matthew 1:23, Christ is called “Immanuel,” which means “God with us.”
When Thomas touched Jesus' wounds, after the resurrection, he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some JW’s say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said “my Lord,” but was referring to God (Jehovah) when he said “my God.” Instead, Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God. And Christ did not correct him! Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ when it states that in Him “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” (New World Translation). Stephen called Jesus “Lord” (Acts 7:59,60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; I Cor. 12:3). “Lord” in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It is evident from this that Christ the Lord (kurios) is Jehovah God.
3. Attributes of Christ show that He is God
Jesus Christ knows all things (John 1:48; 2:25; 6:64; 14:30; 21:17). He is all-powerful (Matt. 28:18; Heb. 1:3), sinless (John 8:46), eternal (Mic. 5:2), and unchanging (Heb. 13:8). Since only God possesses these attributes, Christ must be God.
4. Certain works of Christ show that He is God.
Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7; Eph. 1:7), give eternal life (John 10:28; 17:2), judge the world (John 5:22, 27), and control nature (Matt. 8:26). Since only God can do these things, Christ must be God.
5. Christ received worship as God.
Jesus is worshipped by the angels (Heb. 1:6) and by man (Matt. 14:33), and yet only God is to be worshipped (Ex. 34:14). Christ Himself said that worship is due to God alone (Matt. 4:10), and yet He accepted worship. If Jesus in His pre-existent state were the archangel Michael, how could He have received worship, since angels are not allowed to receive worship (Rev. 19:10)? If Christ were not God, then worshipping Him would be idolatrous.
6. Jesus Christ is called “the mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6.
JW’s have a ready answer for this verse. They explain that Christ is “the mighty god.” but not “the almighty.” They say that Christ is the mighty, never the almighty and that Jehovah is the almighty God, never the mighty. However, Jeremiah 32:18 shows that Jehovah is the mighty One. Therefore, since Christ is the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and Jehovah is the mighty God (Jer. 32:18), they are both God. They both possess full deity.
7. Christ is God, the Creator of all things according to Colossians 1:15-17.
JW’s refer to this passage to support their teaching that Christ was created by Jehovah (for example, Let God Be True, p.35). This is based primarily on the words, “the firstborn of all creation,” in verse 15. However, if this verse was teaching that Jesus Christ is the first created being made by God, the word “first-created” would have been used of Christ, not the word “firstborn.” These are two different words in the Greek, with two different meanings. “First-created” is protoktistos, and “firstborn” is prototokos. Colossians 1:15 does not use the protoktistos, “first-created.” Instead it uses prototokos, which means an heir, a begotten one, the first in rank. The teaching of Colossians 1:15 is that Christ is first in rank above all creation; He is the Heir of all things. He is prior to all creation and superior over it.
The JW’s New World Translation adds the word “other” four times in Colossians 1:15-17, so that the passage states that Christ created “all other things,” everything except Himself. However, there is no basis for adding “other.” It certainly does not occur in the Greek manuscripts. The translators of the New World Translation admit this by putting “other” in brackets. This “translation” attempts to comply with the assumption that firstborn means first-created. But, as shown, this is not the meaning of firstborn, and therefore it is also wrong to add the word “other.” There is no verse in the entire Bible that states that Christ was created by Jehovah!
8. Christ claimed to be equal with God in John 10:30.
JW’s believe that this verse, “I and the Father are one,” means that Christ was one with God the Father in purpose and not in nature and essence. However, if that was all Christ was saying, why did the Jews want to stone Him? They themselves thought His purpose was the same as God’s. Verse 33 of John 10 explains that they wanted to stone Him because of blasphemy, because He claimed to be God!
The deity of Christ is the central point of the Scriptures. It clearly teaches that Christ is God. The teachings of the Jehovah’s Witness' concerning Jesus Christ clearly contradict the teachings of the Bible. Passages such as Philippians 2:5-11 tell us that Jesus Christ, who existed as God, took the bodily form of a humble servant so that He could die on the cross in our place. “Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios), to the glory of God the Father.”

Rob,

Do you think that putting your response in big bold fonts will make it anymore Scripturally correct ? In texting, this is called "shouting", as if you were screaming in another person's ear. Especially if you duplicate your words. This makes the trinity no less of a lie.

Jesus himself told Mary, after his resurrection, that "I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."(John 20:17, King James Bible) Would Jesus have said to Mary that he was 'ascending to his and her Father, to his and her God,' had he been God, part of a "Godhead" ? Even an elementary student would be able to see that Jesus is not God from this Scripture.

No amount of diatribe will alter the fact that Jesus never said he was God nor does the Bible in any way intimate the trinity doctrine. Attacking me personally does not build a sound case, but rather shows your true colors, as one given to perhaps a "fit of anger".(Gal 5:20)

You use the example of Thomas as saying to Jesus: "My Lord and my God."(John 20:28) However, whose words have more authority, that of Thomas, an imperfect person, or that of Jesus, a perfect man, who "committed no sin" ?(1 Peter 2:22) It is truly a distortion of justice to see individuals, though professing to follow Christ, accept an imperfect man's words over the perfect man's Jesus words.

Had Jesus been God, then why, was he unaware of the "day and hour" when the "great tribulation" would begin (Matt 24:36), and lacked "knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction" ?(Acts 1:7)

You can continue to jump up and down all you want, but the Bible is very clear that Jesus is "only-begotten Son of God", not "God the Son".(John 3:16) Need I explain what "only-begotten" (Greek, monogenes) means ? Jephthah, a judge of Israel, had an "only-begotten" daughter, "and she was his only child".("only child", Greek Septuagint, monogenes; Judges 11:34, King James Bible) Jairus "had an only-begotten (Greek monogenes) daughter", being his only child.(Luke 8:42)

So why did Jesus call himself the "only-begotten Son of God"? For fun ? You wish not to see that Jesus was "begotten", or ' was caused by a father.' (Encarta Dictionary) Had he had no beginning, would Jesus have used words that stated that he had a Father ? To the contrary, his whole language content would have been peppered with his everlastingness, without beginning. However, he himself said that he was "the beginning of the creation of God."(Rev 3:14, King James Bible)
 
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rob

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Just received your message Miss Hepburn!

I'm sorry to offend you by the big writing, but as I posted earlier, I am only a novice on the computer and having tried many times to change the font to emphasize certain facts, little did I know until it was posted that I had
ACCIDENTALLY inserted a very large font which you call "shouting". So you must forgive me for such an error on my part as I was shocked when I found my post was so large! By the way, did you read it through?

I have no need to "shout" although I cannot but shout this wonderful message concerning Christ as our EVERYTHING,

I will send further refutation of your claim, denying the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. To deny the Son is to deny the Father!
 

Miss Hepburn

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Oh, well, both of you could just press edit -and get rid of all
the bold stuff ---the "edit button is our friend"!!

LOL :) Miss Hepburn
 

rob

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Miss Hepburn

No amount of diatribe will alter the fact that Jesus never said he was God nor does the Bible in any way intimate the trinity doctrine. Attacking me personally does not build a sound case, but rather shows your true colors, as one given to perhaps a "fit of anger".(Gal 5:20).

Miss Hepburn

No amount of diatribe will alter the fact that Jesus never said he was God nor does the Bible in any way intimate the trinity doctrine. Attacking me personally does not build a sound case, but rather shows your true colors, as one given to perhaps a "fit of anger".(Gal 5:20)

Rob
Miss Hepburn Please show clearly where I have attacked you personally using "diatribe", (sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism), in any of my posts? You will not find any such thing?

Further you have said my diatribe shows my true colours {shows your true colors, as one given to perhaps a "fit of anger".(Gal 5:20).}

I have thoroughly refuted your false assumption which denies the deity of Christ , nothing more nothing less, Is this an attack of your person?

There is nothing in my post attacking any person other than Satan himself!

I would take this opportunity to ask anyone following this fellowship to show who really has used "diatribe", or sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism

It really saddens me that I have to post this.
 

rob

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Rob
You did not answer my question whether or not you have actually read my posts; if you had then in fairness to me why not refute the scriptural points and try to disprove that Jesus Christ of the New Testament is Jehovah of the Old Testament; rather than categorically stating the trinity is a lie?

Guestman
Jesus himself told Mary, after his resurrection, that "I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."(John 20:17, King James Bible) Would Jesus have said to Mary that he was 'ascending to his and her Father, to his and her God,' had he been God, part of a "Godhead" ? Even an elementary student would be able to see that Jesus is not God from this Scripture.

Rob
An elementary student with a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ will immediately discern His Deity

(John 20:17) “Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God”.
On the day of His resurrection the Lord ascended to the Father. This was a secret ascension, the ultimate fulfilment of the going predicted in 16:7. It occurred forty days prior to His public ascension, which took place before the eyes of the disciples (Acts 1:9-11). On the day of resurrection, early in the morning He ascended to satisfy the Father, and late in the evening He returned to the disciples (v. 19). The freshness of His resurrection must be first for the Father’s enjoyment, as in the type the first fruits of the harvest were brought first to God.

Previously, the most intimate term the Lord had used in reference to His disciples was “friends” (15:14-15). But after His resurrection He began to call them “brothers,” for through His resurrection His disciples were regenerated (1 Pet. 1:3) with the divine life, which had been released by His life-imparting death, as indicated in 12:24. He was the one grain of wheat that fell into the ground and dies and grew up to bring forth many grains for the producing of the one bread, which is His Body (1 Cor. 10:17). He was the Father’s only Son, the Father’s individual expression. Through His death and resurrection the Father’s only begotten became the Firstborn among many brothers (Romans 8:29). His many brothers are the many sons and are the church (Heb. 2:10-12), a corporate expression of God the Father in the Son. This is God’s ultimate intention. The many brothers are the propagation of the Father’s life and the multiplication of the Son in the divine life. Hence, in the Lord’s resurrection God’s eternal purpose is fulfilled.

Through His life-imparting death and resurrection, the Lord made His disciples one with Him. Therefore, His Father is the Father of His disciples, and God is the God of His disciples. In His resurrection they have the Father’s life and God’s divine nature, just as He has. In making them His brothers, He has imparted the Father’s life and God’s divine nature into them. By making His Father and His God theirs, He has brought them into His position---the position of the Son---before the Father and God. Thus in life and nature inwardly and in position outwardly they are the same as the Lord

Guestman
No amount of diatribe will alter the fact that Jesus never said he was God nor does the Bible in any way intimate the trinity doctrine. Attacking me personally does not build a sound case, but rather shows your true colors, as one given to perhaps a "fit of anger".(Gal 5:20)

Rob
Please point out to me where I have attacked and abused your person?

Guestman
You use the example of Thomas as saying to Jesus: "My Lord and my God."(John 20:28) However, whose words have more authority, that of Thomas
Had Jesus been God, then why, was he unaware of the "day and hour" when the "great tribulation" would begin (Matt 24:36), and lacked "knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction" ?(Acts 1:7)

Rob
The simple fact that Jesus Christ accepted the worship of Thomas is more than sufficient evidence of His deityl.


Guestman

You can continue to jump up and down all you want, but the Bible is very clear that Jesus is "only-begotten Son of God", not "God the Son".(John 3:16) Need I explain what "only-begotten" (Greek, monogenes) means ? Jephthah, a judge of Israel, had an "only-begotten" daughter, "and she was his only child".("only child", Greek Septuagint, monogenes; Judges 11:34, King James Bible) Jairus "had an only-begotten (Greek monogenes) daughter", being his only child.(Luke 8:42)

Rob
Please show me where I have jumped up and down (whatever that means)?
In His resurrection Jesus Christ became the FIRSTBORN SON OF GOD making us who love Him and are born of Him His brothers.

Guestman
So why did Jesus call himself the "only-begotten Son of God"? For fun ? You wish not to see that Jesus was "begotten", or ' was caused by a father.' (Encarta Dictionary) Had he had no beginning, would Jesus have used words that stated that he had a Father ? To the contrary, his whole language content would have been peppered with his everlastingness, without beginning. However, he himself said that he was "the beginning of the creation of God."(Rev 3:14, King James Bible)

Rob
In the beginning (John 1:1) means in eternity past this chapter begins in eternity past with God, who had divinity but not humanity. In time “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14) Hallellujah!
Jesus, the only begotten Son
The Father’s only begotten Son declared God by the Word, life, light, grace, and reality (truth). The Word is God expressed, life is God imparted, light is God shining, grace is God enjoyed, and reality is God realized, apprehended.
God is fully declared in the Son through these five things.

The beginning of the creation of God refers to the Lord as the origin or source of God’s creation
 

found in Alaska

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What you’re saying Guestman isn’t new; Arianism was the Heresy that Christ was given every honor but divinity (250––336 AD). There are a few groups that hold to your beliefs; one of them has even rewritten the Bible to support their claims.
 

Butch5

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Rev. 1:8,

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the
Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Question...If JESUS is not the ALMIGHTY...then who is?

Isa. 12:2,

2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for Jehovah, [even] Jehovah, is my strength and song; and he
is become my salvation.


How did God become our salvation?

He became a man in order to qualify as our near kinsman. He
couldn't qualify as an angel or as God, because He gave authority
to man in Gen. 1:26,

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over
all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon
the earth.


Hence, after His Ascension, His desciples doubted that He was
God. So...Jesus made the statement in Mathew 28:17-18,

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some
doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power
is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


...and that my friends is how God became our Salvation.

What a plan!


Logabe

My friend, Jesus can be God without being the Father. The Greek word translated "God" is "Theos" it means dtvine or deity. Jesus is deity (God) , however, He is not the Father (God- Deity)
 

Guestman

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Everyone that is "begotten" had a beginning. Any one can look up the word "begotten" and see for themselves that it means "to procreate or generate (offspring)".(Dictionary.com), with the synonyms being "spawn, sire, breed, father, generate." With Jesus saying that he is the "only-begotten Son of God"(John 3:16, 18), would clearly mean that he was ' procreated, generated, sired." Jesus always told the truth, and, without hesitation, stated that he was "begotten". Otherwise, Jesus lied.

Had Jesus had no beginning, he would not have said that he was the "only-begotten Son of God", nor would he have called himself "God's Son" (John 10:36), nor would John the apostle have stated "that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God."(John 20:31) Talk about a distortion of the facts. Many fail to take Jesus' words at face value, that he is God's "only-begotten Son", but instead wish to twist them around without regard for what either Jesus or his disciples said about him in order to propagate the trinity.

The trinity doctrine has for some, become a stranglehold on them. The apostle John wrote that "no man has seen God at any time"(John 1:18; 1 John 4:12). He further said that "the only-begotten god (there's the word "begotten" again) who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him."(John 1:18) How could Jesus be God and yet John make a statement that "no man has seen God at any time" without lying ? And how Jesus be called an "only-begotten god" if he is God, without beginning ?(Ps 90:2)

Many Bibles say "only-begotten Son". However, the wording of "only-begotten god" is accurate, for the oldest known Greek manuscripts of the book of John have this rendering, such Papyrus Bodmer 2 (P66), Papyrus Bodmer 14,15 (P75), both of about 200 C.E., and both being located at Geneva, Switzerland, the Vatican MS 1209 of the fourth century, located at Vatican City, Rome, as well as the Codex Ephraemi rescriptus of the fifth century, located at Paris, France. Thus, Jesus is "a god" that was "sired", but not "God Almighty",(Gen 17:1) and part of a trinity.
 

rob

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There are many Scriptures which concisely identify Jesus as God, such as John 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8; Col. 2:9; John 1:1; etc.
Furthermore, in Hebrews 1:3 from the KJV, we read:
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
The word in the KJV translated person is correctly translated nature in other versions, such as the following ones:
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (NASB).
He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (RSV).
He is the radiance of His glory, the exact expression of His nature, and He sustains all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (Holman).
The actual Greek word translated person in Heb. 1:3 (KJV) is hypostasis and means, according to Strong:
a setting under (support), i.e. (fig.) concr. essence, or abstr. assurance (obj. or subj.):—confidence, confident, person, substance.
Though the word nature is not actually found in Strong’s definition, the word substance is. A synonym for substance is essence, which is also a synonym for nature. This is how the aforementioned translations can correctly render Hebrews 1:3 as containing the word nature.
Hence, Jesus could be worshiped by the disciples (Mt. 14:33; 28:9), the angels (Heb. 1:6) and even prayed to (John 14:14, Greek; Acts 7:59,60) without anyone committing the sin of idolatry, which would be the case otherwise. This is only possible because Jesus is God (by nature). Remember: What Jesus said belongs to God alone, that is, worship (Mt. 4:10), the angels are commanded by the Father to give to Jesus (Heb. 1:6)! And not to honour Jesus as the Father is honoured is not to honour the Father (John 5:23):
That all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him.
Since God does not share his glory [or honour, Hebrew] with another (Isa. 42:8), and we must honour Jesus the same as God the Father (John 5:23), then we have another glimpse at his nature being God.
Jesus is YHWH of the Old Testament, Jesus Is Not the Father, But is Deity,.
 

logabe

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My friend, Jesus can be God without being the Father. The Greek word translated "God" is "Theos" it means dtvine or deity. Jesus is deity (God) , however,
He is not the Father (God- Deity)


Butch5, would you explain Isa. 9:6 for me please.

6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government
will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace
.


Logabe
 

Guestman

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There are many Scriptures which concisely identify Jesus as God, such as John 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8; Col. 2:9; John 1:1; etc.
Furthermore, in Hebrews 1:3 from the KJV, we read:
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
The word in the KJV translated person is correctly translated nature in other versions, such as the following ones:
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (NASB).
He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (RSV).
He is the radiance of His glory, the exact expression of His nature, and He sustains all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (Holman).
The actual Greek word translated person in Heb. 1:3 (KJV) is hypostasis and means, according to Strong:
a setting under (support), i.e. (fig.) concr. essence, or abstr. assurance (obj. or subj.):—confidence, confident, person, substance.
Though the word nature is not actually found in Strong’s definition, the word substance is. A synonym for substance is essence, which is also a synonym for nature. This is how the aforementioned translations can correctly render Hebrews 1:3 as containing the word nature.
Hence, Jesus could be worshiped by the disciples (Mt. 14:33; 28:9), the angels (Heb. 1:6) and even prayed to (John 14:14, Greek; Acts 7:59,60) without anyone committing the sin of idolatry, which would be the case otherwise. This is only possible because Jesus is God (by nature). Remember: What Jesus said belongs to God alone, that is, worship (Mt. 4:10), the angels are commanded by the Father to give to Jesus (Heb. 1:6)! And not to honour Jesus as the Father is honoured is not to honour the Father (John 5:23):
That all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him.
Since God does not share his glory [or honour, Hebrew] with another (Isa. 42:8), and we must honour Jesus the same as God the Father (John 5:23), then we have another glimpse at his nature being God.
Jesus is YHWH of the Old Testament, Jesus Is Not the Father, But is Deity,.


Rob,

What you are saying is that Thomas statement at John 20:28 has more weight of authority than Jesus own words just a few verse earlier, whereby Jesus said to Mary that he was "ascending to my God and your God."(John 20:17) This is like accepting hearsay over the statement of someone who is always known for telling the truth, whose character is impeccable, without blemish.(1 Pet 2:22) This is like telling Jesus that he lied, that ' your apostle speaks the truth whereas you did not '. Yet, those that call themselves Christian say that Jesus is their Lord, but on this occasion, Thomas is more accurate. Can this be true ? No.

Many Bibles at Romans 9:5 fail to realize that there is a pause or period between "flesh"and "God", thus distiguishing the Christ from God. A detailed study of the construction in Romans 9:5 is found in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888. On page 432 he says: "The naturalness of a pause after sar′ka ("flesh") is further indicated by the fact that we find a point after this word in all our oldest MSS. that testify in the case,—namely, A, B, C, L, . . . I can now name, besides the uncials A (Codex Alexandrine of the fifth century), B (Codex Vaticanus of the fourth century), C (Codex Ephraemi rescriptus of the fifth century), L (Greek Septuagint), . . . at least twenty-six cursives which have a stop after σάρκα (sar′ka ["flesh"]). The apostle Paul ascribes praise and thanksgiving to God and does not identify Almighty God with Jesus Christ.

And of Hebrews 1:8, have you looked at verse 9, which says that, with regard to the Son: "You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. That is why God, your God, anointed you rather than your companions with the oil of gladness."(International Standard Version) How can Jesus be God and at the same time, be anointed by "your God"("even thy God", King James Bible) ? Verse 9 contradicts verse 8 if it reads as the King James Bible renders it. Thus, Jesus has a God.

At Colossians 2:9, the word "Godhead" is inaccurately placed here. Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon defines the·o´tes (rendered as "Godhead" in the King James Bible) in basically the same way it does thei·o´tes at Romans 1:20, as meaning “divinity, divine nature.” (P. 792) The Syriac Peshitta and the Latin Vulgate render this word as “divinity.” The online interlinear, Scripture4all, along with the Emphatic Diaglott, renders the·o´tes as "deity", not "Godhead". The Greek master text, The New Testament in the Original Greek, by Westcott and Hort renders the·o´tes as "godship" in it's interlinear reading.

And John 1:1 does not say that Jesus is God (Greek theos), despite the rendering by the King James Bible and others. Had anyone looked closely at the construction of this Scripture without bias or prejudice, it could be seen that Jesus is "a god". The definite Greek article "ho"("the") is before God in only two instances in verse 1 and 2, first and last. In addition, the definite article "ho" ("the") is also before "Word", saying "the Word", thus establishing a specific person, "the God" and "the Word". But why is the definite article not before the second occurrence of "god" in verse 1 ? Simply put, the apostle John never meant for it to be "God", but rather "a god", or "godlike". Otherwise, he would have placed the definite article before "god" in all occurrences. It is of interest that the King James Bible renders the Greek word theos as "a god" at Acts 12:22 and 28:6, because of no definite article being there.

It is also of interest that you mention Hebrews 1:3, whereby it says that Jesus "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." If Jesus is God, how then can he ' sit down at God's right hand ' ? If Jesus is God, then why did Peter says that "that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" ? How can he be seen as being "made....Lord and Christ" by God if he is God ? Those who are willing to reason on the Bible rather than take what has been dispensed out by the churches, can recognize that Jesus nor the apostles have said nor intimated that Jesus is God.