Not a sinner.

[Cristo Rei]

@Taken

When I asked you to explain what u meant by "baptism of the Holy Spirit" i mean what does that entail? Is it a dream, a feeling, a thought?
When Peter says be baptized and you will receive the Holy Spirit what other form of baptism is he talking about if not with water?

When u say "secures" a person are you saying they are saved while still alive on this earth?

As for being convinced by Christ that's actually not very convincing cos most people have been convinced that being born again is getting baptized.

Im not saying i know exactly how it works, quite the opposite, im saying there isn't enough evidence to interpret what "born again" means exactly. It says that we cannot be saved without being born again but i don't think it says you are saved the moment you are born again.
I think you only get saved after you die

 

[justbyfaith]

Let's try this from another angle....what do think the order of Melchizedek is?

The order of Melchizedec is simply a priestly order other than the priesthood of Levi that Jesus was a part of; because He was not of the tribe of Levi but of Judah (Hebrews 7:13-14). It also has to do with, not a carnal commandment but the power of an endless life (Hebrews 7:16). And, because there was a change in priesthood there was also a change in the law (Hebrews 7:12) from the letter to the spirit (Romans 7:6).

There are better verses to support your claim such as 1 John 3:9

But then there are verses such as 1 John 1:8-10 and Romans 7:14-25 among others that appear to contradict...

Do u never get angry? Don't u ever have any self ambition or pride?

I think that the best verse usable to support my claim here is 1 John 3:7. Because it speaks in there of a practical righteousness where one who is born again is righteous even as He is righteous.

Now I don't want to testify of myself and say that I never get angry or that I don't have any selfish ambition or pride. But I will say that it is not wise to measure and interpret scripture by our experience; but that it is wise to interpret our experience in light of the holy scriptures. So if the scripture declares a standard and I don't measure up, it is not the scriptures that carry the problem.

 

[mjrhealth]

Are you sinning and repenting?
You should not be.., according to Paul.
Read my Threads.
They can help you, but you have to have to allow yourself to use the NT correctly.

Well please explain to teh world what sin is ...

 

[GodsGrace]

A Christian should NEVER think of themselves as a 'sinner".

"as a person thinks in their Heart, so are they"...

So, if you are born again, you are not a "sinner,... = you are FOREVER a Child of God. You are THE Bride of Christ. You are a "Lively Stone"... You are a "Redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb"... You are a "Child of the Light... You are a "SAINT".... You are a "Brethren"....You are a "Heir of God"... You are a "Joint Heir with Christ"....You are "The Temple of the Holy Spirit"..... "Jesus has called you FRIEND".

So why are you no longer a "sinner" if you are Born again? ??

Well this Title...."sinner" and "sin", is a former product of the Law's ability to define an unbeliever as those words, as that Title.. See, The Law has an authority, and it has a dominion... So, an unbeliever is UNDER the dominion and authority of "the Law", so, the Law has a right to define an unbeliever as a "sinner, and their trangression, their iniquity , as "sin".

Jesus has removed the "curse of the Law".. from the Born again. This means that IF you are truly born again you are no longer under the "dominion of the Law".. This mean that the Law has no more RIGHT to label you, or define you, as anything... And why is that? ??

= "Christ has REDEEMED the born again, from the CURSE of the Law".
= The born again are "not under the law, but UNDER GRACE".
= Jesus said, "all POWER is given to me, In Heaven and on EARTH"
= "As JESUS IS.....so ARE ... the born again...IN THIS WORLD">..

If you are Born Again, then you are now under a new dominion... you are "under GRACE".
The Grace of God now has Dominion and final authority over you...


edit.....

Behold,,,
I stopped reading after the very beginning.
Why?
Because we finally Agree!
We are not to consider ourselves sinners but Children of God.


I was too afraid to read the rest.....


Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 6:18
“And I will be a father to you,
And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”
Says the Lord Almighty.

Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

 

[Nancy]

Behold,,,
I stopped reading after the very beginning.
Why?
Because we finally Agree!
We are not to consider ourselves sinners but Children of God.


I was too afraid to read the rest.....


Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 6:18
“And I will be a father to you,
And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”
Says the Lord Almighty.

Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

New creatures GG yes? Good to see you here for however long. Miss the @Rollo!

 

[Nancy]

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

That does not say people will be damned. It says Jesus isn't going to pay for such sins.

Hi G.
Have you ever thought that this scripture "...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," could be saying that there is no where else to go BUT Christ for forgiveness? And if they choose the world...they will never be forgiven?
Just a thought...not Gospel Truth here...

 

[GodsGrace]

New creatures GG yes? Good to see you here for however long. Miss the @Rollo!

Yes. I always feel like @Behold goes a bit too far for me...
but I understand what he's saying,,,,I just dislike how he says it.
I'll say hello to Rollo.
He doesn't like to post so much anymore.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @GodsGrace,

It is good to see you here again after so long a time.

 

[Nancy]

Yes. I always feel like @Behold goes a bit too far for me...
but I understand what he's saying,,,,I just dislike how he says it.
I'll say hello to Rollo.
He doesn't like to post so much anymore.

Yes, I do agree about Behold. And, I'm glad to hear Rollo is doing okay. No, he does not post at all anymore. But...I still miss his humor relief

 

[GodsGrace]

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

That does not say people will be damned. It says Jesus isn't going to pay for such sins.

What does it mean that Jesus isn't going to pay for such sins?

Jesus paid for ALL THE SINS of everyone in the world from beginning to end.

1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

[mjrhealth]

Pauline Theology.
Learn it.

Why
[MKJV] Galatians 1:12
For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it except by a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Only need to know Christ than He will teach us what we need to know.

 

[Nancy]

What does it mean that Jesus isn't going to pay for such sins?

Jesus paid for ALL THE SINS of everyone in the world from beginning to end.

1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

"As far as the East is to the West" has He removed our sins...

 

[GodsGrace]

Why
[MKJV] Galatians 1:12
For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it except by a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Only need to know Christ than He will teach us what we need to know.

Agreed!
Paul wrote most of the N.T. and the theology of Christianity...
but sometimes I think he went to the cross instead of Christ, the way he's revered.

When in doubt, I always go to the words of Jesus.

 

[mjrhealth]

Agreed!
Paul wrote most of the N.T. and the theology of Christianity...
but sometimes I think he went to the cross instead of Christ, the way he's revered.

When in doubt, I always go to the words of Jesus.

When in doubt I just wait on Him, there is much I dont know and much I wait on answers for, they will come in His time.

 

[GodsGrace]

"As far as the East is to the West" has He removed our sins...

Agreed.
Jesus' propitiation was for everyone that will accept His terms...
Be born again
Obey God's commandments which are wrapped up in the Great Two Commandments that Jesus left us with.

And, of course we go on sinning.
We are not sinners,,,,but we will sin as long as we breath.
Although, I do believe it's held to a minimum because of the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

When in doubt I just wait on Him, there is much I dont know and much I wait on answers for, they will come in His time.

This is not a bad way to listen to God's words....
I do believe that what we need to know, Jesus has answered.
But, whatever works for you is good as long as it's within God's word.

 

[Cristo Rei]

Now I don't want to testify of myself and say that I never get angry or that I don't have any selfish ambition or pride

Cos a person isn't sinless if he commits sins.
We usually think of actions when we think of sin. But some feelings and thoughts that are sins too

But I will say that it is not wise to measure and interpret scripture by our experience

Hmm very true, subjective interpretation is something that I see a lot. That's one good thing about Catholicism
We can rarely make that mistake, most of scripture is interpreted by people who are closer to God, the ordained

but that it is wise to interpret our experience in light of the holy scriptures

Well yes that is true but the problem is that there are different interpretations of scripture.

People are at risk when interpreting scripture themselves.
When the bible isn't conclusive about something its then all too easy to make up the rest to suit.
Or when it appears to contradict itself like with the verses i cited above, it's all to easy to make a subjective choice.

I don't claim to know the truth or that the RCC is always true.
I only first heard of this sinless concept 6 months ago and since then i've heard it more and thought about it more...

Maybe it is possible to become sinless.
The apostles that wrote books in the NT rarely speak about dealing with sin apart from Paul.
He talks about it a lot. So i thought to myself why.

Well, the apostles were always with Christ and never left him... Paul was never with Christ, furthermore, Paul persecuted the followers of Christ thus persecuting Christ himself. I was also away from Christ, i had rejected and persecuted God in my heart...

I think this might be the reason why i really feel Paul's struggle with sin.
I understand his spiritual warfare, a topic that isn't spoken about much.
See when I was away from God i disregarded what the Holy Spirit was saying and would act on that other instinct, that other voice.
The problem is that other voice was of the evil one. It is the evil one that controlled us for all that time we rejected God.

When we finally find God and can hear the Holy Spirit we find that Satan built a home within us, a home with deep foundations.
This is what Paul means when he says that evil is always with him. This is what Paul is talking about when he says he is a slave to sinful temptations and all his other struggles with sin.

This is the thorn in the flesh that Paul talks about when he prays to God 3 times to remove it. It's kind of like a punishment, it's the cross that we are made to bare as we follow Christ.

Now, for some people that were always with Christ it might be different.
But I think time away from God might be the reason why me, Paul and many other people know this battle against sin...

Anywayz God Bless

 

[mjrhealth]

within God's word.

YEs they keep demanding that God agree with the bible and not the bible with God I get it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Cos a person isn't sinless if he commits sins.
We usually think of actions when we think of sin. But some feelings and thoughts that are sins too



Hmm very true, subjective interpretation is something that I see a lot. That's one good thing about Catholicism
We can rarely make that mistake, most of scripture is interpreted by people who are closer to God, the ordained



Well yes that is true but the problem is that there are different interpretations of scripture.

People are at risk when interpreting scripture themselves.
When the bible isn't conclusive about something its then all too easy to make up the rest to suit.
Or when it appears to contradict itself like with the verses i cited above, it's all to easy to make a subjective choice.

I don't claim to know the truth or that the RCC is always true.
I only first heard of this sinless concept 6 months ago and since then i've heard it more and thought about it more...

Maybe it is possible to become sinless.
The apostles that wrote books in the NT rarely speak about dealing with sin apart from Paul.
He talks about it a lot. So i thought to myself why.

Well, the apostles were always with Christ and never left him... Paul was never with Christ, furthermore, Paul persecuted the followers of Christ thus persecuting Christ himself. I was also away from Christ, i had rejected and persecuted God in my heart...

I think this might be the reason why i really feel Paul's struggle with sin.
I understand his spiritual warfare, a topic that isn't spoken about much.
See when I was away from God i disregarded what the Holy Spirit was saying and would act on that other instinct, that other voice.
The problem is that other voice was of the evil one. It is the evil one that controlled us for all that time we rejected God.

When we finally find God and can hear the Holy Spirit we find that Satan built a home within us, a home with deep foundations.
This is what Paul means when he says that evil is always with him. This is what Paul is talking about when he says he is a slave to sinful temptations and all his other struggles with sin.

This is the thorn in the flesh that Paul talks about when he prays to God 3 times to remove it. It's kind of like a punishment, it's the cross that we are made to bare as we follow Christ.

Now, for some people that were always with Christ it might be different.
But I think time away from God might be the reason why me, Paul and many other people know this battle against sin...

Anywayz God Bless

Great points.

And then we have sola scripture:
Only the scriptures should be the authority.

And then we have solo scripture:
Some sit at home and interpret scripture their very own way.

 

[Giuliano]

Hi G.
Have you ever thought that this scripture "...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," could be saying that there is no where else to go BUT Christ for forgiveness? And if they choose the world...they will never be forgiven?
Just a thought...not Gospel Truth here...

I believe we will pay for our sins if Jesus got us out of them and we go back knowing better. For example, suppose you are a smoker and feel led to stop smoking. I'm not saying smoking is a sin, mind, but just using it as an example. I knew a man who gave up cigarettes easily when he became a Christian. He never felt the urge to smoke again. I think if he had decided to do it again and got hooked again, Jesus may not have helped him with that problem again. If he wanted to stop, maybe he'd have to do it on his own.

If Jesus is willing to bear our burdens when we are too weak to do for ourselves, can we deliberately return to the sins that created those burdens and expect Jesus to bear them again and again? I don't think that's the deal (or covenant) we make with Jesus. If we try to take advantage of Jesus' generosity, we may find ourselves in the same fix as the unfaithful servant whose debts had been cancelled. They got put back on the books. That may sound astonishing to some people, but Jesus said that the sins we have been forgiven of can be reinstated.

Matthew 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

People may want a free lunch, but I don't think it works like that. If Jesus does us a favor, we can help make the world a better place by doing favors for others. It is another astonishing doctrine, but Jesus expects us to do more him and for our fellow man than he does for us. He loves it when people do that because then he can reward them later for those good deeds. They have used the gifts God gave them well. They couldn't have done anything good if God hadn't given them the gifts and the power to use them; but God expects us to use our gifts well.

Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

I have a third doctrine some may find astonishing. People opine that God alone is going to make them into "sons of God." Hardly. God gives us power to become the sons of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is a wonderful thing when men and women do this. It proves that God was right from the very beginning to give man dominion over the earth. Satan was wrong if he thought man was a worthless creation.

But what do you do with someone who is advanced spiritually to the point where he has been given the power to become a son of God and he rebels against God and sets himself as his own god? Such a person was surely filled with the Holy Spirit -- but the Spirit fled when he set himself up as his own god. I cannot see any forgiveness or pardon for this, and I doubt that person could pay for that sin himself. He basically told the Spirit to get lost. I doubt he could get himself in the frame of mind to repent or to accept responsibility -- he's spiritually insane. Yes, I believe in a "beast of the water" that will arrive some day on the scene as described in Revelation; but I think there have been people, less capable than he will be of performing miracles, who have sinned the same way. What is the tragedy? Perhaps they craved to be immortal and then craved to return to sin after receiving immortality? It's to the outer darkness for them. Have you noticed that the three times the outer darkness is mentioned (in Matthew), it's God's unfaithful servants being punished so?

They have the immortality they craved. What is it worth? They'd be better off completely out of existence if you ask me. God is not mocked.