Guide To The Post Tribulation

[Timtofly]

That makes zero sense. The beast that speaks like a dragon IS a dragon...except its not described as a dragon. So, you're just assuming its a dragon.
The text says beast. It says is speaks like a dragon. That means it cannot LOOK like a dragon, because otherwise we'd just be told 'it spoke'. Because then OF COURSE it would speak like a dragon...it WAS a dragon. To be told it 'spoke like a dragon' means it cannot look like a dragon, it must look different, and be speaking with a voice that needs to be clarified...


You are still mistaking the 3 'beasts' of Revelation; the 1st beast is not Satan, and neither is it the false prophet...which is the 2nd Beast. The text clearly delineates between the three; Dragon and 1st and 2nd Beast. The Dragon gives his power TO the first beast, but is not the first beast, and the second beast speaks LIKE the dragon, but is not it.
Again, to have any of these beasts being one or the same, you start dipping into the territory of 'God attributes', where the bible starts ascribing several 'persons' to one entity...and this cannot be...only God can have God attributes.

And 2 Thess 2 agrees. The Man of lawlessness is not named as Satan, or the Dragon. And no...not the false prophet either. John speaks about 'antichrist', naming him the ultimate last in a long line of men who have embodied certain ungodly characteristics throughout the age. Indeed, of many of them we may say they were under Satan's influence, as Revelation 13 says of the 'final' one, but of them too, we may not say were actually Satan in the flesh.



You have yet to provide any sort of decent explanation or scriptural evidence that shows both how and why you think these 3 'beasts'....dragon, 1st beast and 2nd beast, are not exactly what are described.

Because Satan has been the one with two horns from before Christ. He does not look like a dragon, because that is figurative. Satan will never look like a dragon will he?

You reject the Scriptures I give. I will not have to wait 1000 years, but you have a 50/50 chance at whether a 1000 years is or is not a lie in Revelation 20. Paul says Satan has been working for over 2000 years. You claim there is a human who can live that long. You say Satan hangs out in hell? Or is Satan never seen at all?

 

[Naomi25]

Because Satan has been the one with two horns from before Christ. He does not look like a dragon, because that is figurative. Satan will never look like a dragon will he?

Well, I don’t know...will he? Isn’t it rather an assumption that Satan would appear as a man? Or a man with horns and a pointy tail? Only humankind was made “in the image of God”. Whether that means bipedal it has something more to do with being Gods representatives on Earth, we can still say with some certainty that every time an angelic or fallen angelic being is described in its heavenly form, it is not in human form. We will see them take human form when given the task of “messenger”... to bring Gods word to people on earth, but when we see angels before the throne, or demons coming from the abyss, they are usually described as a conglomeration of animal parts.
So...saying that Satan is not a ‘serpent’ or ‘dragon’ is more assumption than fact.

You reject the Scriptures I give. I will not have to wait 1000 years, but you have a 50/50 chance at whether a 1000 years is or is not a lie in Revelation 20. Paul says Satan has been working for over 2000 years. You claim there is a human who can live that long. You say Satan hangs out in hell? Or is Satan never seen at all?

Does that include the scripture you went back and edited in?

 

[Timtofly]

Well, I don’t know...will he? Isn’t it rather an assumption that Satan would appear as a man? Or a man with horns and a pointy tail? Only humankind was made “in the image of God”. Whether that means bipedal it has something more to do with being Gods representatives on Earth, we can still say with some certainty that every time an angelic or fallen angelic being is described in its heavenly form, it is not in human form. We will see them take human form when given the task of “messenger”... to bring Gods word to people on earth, but when we see angels before the throne, or demons coming from the abyss, they are usually described as a conglomeration of animal parts.
So...saying that Satan is not a ‘serpent’ or ‘dragon’ is more assumption than fact.



Does that include the scripture you went back and edited in?

I did not go back to edit in. I accidentally hit the post button before done. I hate when it does not lock it out until I was finished.

We are not talking about a pointy horn being. We are talking about an historic god, that mocked with the horns of a lamb.

Was it a dragon in Eden, who lost it's legs?

If you want your human false prophet with lamb horns, how does a human grow horns?

 

[Taken]

That's fine, and likewise, I was explaining how I disagreed.

Thank you.
I am curious, what are the crucified, saved and born again "doing" on Earth During the Wrath of the Tribulation?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Well, I don’t know...will he? Isn’t it rather an assumption that Satan would appear as a man? Or a man with horns and a pointy tail? Only humankind was made “in the image of God”. Whether that means bipedal it has something more to do with being Gods representatives on Earth, we can still say with some certainty that every time an angelic or fallen angelic being is described in its heavenly form, it is not in human form. We will see them take human form when given the task of “messenger”... to bring Gods word to people on earth, but when we see angels before the throne, or demons coming from the abyss, they are usually described as a conglomeration of animal parts.
So...saying that Satan is not a ‘serpent’ or ‘dragon’ is more assumption than fact.

Angels are spirits, God is Spirit. Spirits have great power that they can appear as a man or animal.

Holy Angel's are created, sons of God.
Their created Habitat is Heaven.
Many have been Sent to Earth "as" Servants of God.
They have been Cast "down" to Earth "for" being Unholy. (Losing their status "as" a holy servant of God, and Losing access to Heaven being their Habitat).
Some Holy Angels, son's of God, "came" to Earth, while on Earth, appeared to mankind, "as" a man. Men Saw them as "men" and Called them "men". (Lost their Status "as" holy, lost Heaven as their Habitat, Could NOT remain ON Earth, were cast down to Hell.
* Women saw them, and married them.
* Abraham saw them and made them food.
* Lot saw them in Sodom and talked with them.
* many other examples.

Spirits do have the power to Appear "as" a man, or animal.
God Himself IS Spirit and Appeared "as" a man.

Scriptures warned about the end of days Tribulation, false preachers, false gods, so convincing they can deceive the Elect (ISRAEL) who has had 6,000 years of Gods Teaching...but still Gods Sends Servants "to" Earth "to" Gods Elect (ISRAEL), "to" preach Christ Jesus "IS" their Savior...BUT God does Not "send out His Servants" ..."UNTIL", they Are MARKED in their foreheads with Gods SEAL.

Satan mimics God.

2 Cor 11:
[14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Rev 7:
[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

how does a human grow horns?

Literally?
Horns are typically found on the front portion of an animal's head.
Horns are typically found on drawings or implants on men.
A growth protruding out from an existing bone of a human is typically medically called a "spur".
Scripture teaches to be Looking UPWARD.
Elderly often look downward.
Technology today from a very young age has children and adults looking downward for hours on end daily.
Medically called bone "spurs" that resemble a downward "horn" are developing in humans at the base of their skulls.

You can search x-ray images of bone growths base of skull, and SEE for yourself.

Many Have specific "opinions" of why these growths are happening...but all seem to agree, regardless of specific disagreements...they are forming in people who are consistently looking downward.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davy]

You make everything happening on the same Day.

Yep, pretty much. The 'last day' of this present world is when Jesus returns, when He gathers His elect, when the earth will shake and all the mountains and islands moved out of their place, when He destroys a certain amount of the wicked, when He locks Satan in his pit prison along with the kings of the earth, when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off the earth, when Jesus takes reign with His elect over all nations, when all alive are changed, and when the dead are resurrected. And all of God's Word aligns with those events happening on the final day of this present world.

 

[Bobby Jo]

That's not "confirmed as Scriptural and Historical". ...

Denial is a river in Egypt. Perhaps it's too difficult for you to read Psalms 44, 48, 91 etc. in context with History. So please be blissful in your ignorance.

Hard headed people ...
Bobby Jo

 

[Timtofly]

Literally?
Horns are typically found on the front portion of an animal's head.
Horns are typically found on drawings or implants on men.
A growth protruding out from an existing bone of a human is typically medically called a "spur".
Scripture teaches to be Looking UPWARD.
Elderly often look downward.
Technology today from a very young age has children and adults looking downward for hours on end daily.
Medically called bone "spurs" that resemble a downward "horn" are developing in humans at the base of their skulls.

You can search x-ray images of bone growths base of skull, and SEE for yourself.

Many Have specific "opinions" of why these growths are happening...but all seem to agree, regardless of specific disagreements...they are forming in people who are consistently looking downward.

Glory to God,
Taken

So your antichrist has been looking down the whole 2500 years?

 

[Taken]

So your antichrist has been looking down the whole 2500 years?

No. How you come to that conclusion about bone growths?

 

[Avalon1]

@Naomi25

I think the beasts are just demons but whenever the Bible uses the term "Dragon" it means Satan.

Revelation 20:2 (NIV)

"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years."

 

[Bobby Jo]

@Naomi25
To All,

Why is something as easy as reading a couple Chapters of Psalms such a threat to someone's Christianity? If they actually read this 19th Book of the Bible, prophetic for the 1900's, -- Chapter for year --, would they fall into the pit by discovering that Book 19, Chapter 44 = 1944 Holocaust? Would the earth open up and swallow them if they read Book 19, Chapter 48 = 1948 to discover the International recognition of the State of Israel? Would they all drop dead if they read Book 19, Chapter 91 = 1991 and discovered a prophecy for Desert Storm? -- And of course the more we know about modern Jewish History, the more the Chapters and Verses align.

They say they're Christians, but why won't they read from Scripture? What are they afraid of?!?
Bobby Jo

 

[Josho]

@Naomi25

I think the beasts are just demons but whenever the Bible uses the term "Dragon" it means Satan.

Revelation 20:2 (NIV)

"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years."

Hmmm the beasts and the false prophet, could also be black magicians practicing witchcraft, because if you think about it, they are going to deceive a lot of people.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Hmmm the beasts and the false prophet, could also be ...

... DRAGONS disguised as PEOPLE. And PEOPLE could be disguised as DRAGONS. So beware of PEOPLE and DRAGONS.

Silly people.
Bobby Jo

 

[Naomi25]

I did not go back to edit in. I accidentally hit the post button before done. I hate when it does not lock it out until I was finished.

We are not talking about a pointy horn being. We are talking about an historic god, that mocked with the horns of a lamb.

Was it a dragon in Eden, who lost it's legs?

If you want your human false prophet with lamb horns, how does a human grow horns?

Well your post is most certainly longer, with extra scripture, then when I answered it. You can go back and look at what I replied to (#138), it only shows your "incomplete" answer. So you can forgive me for wondering if you've backtracked and added.
But, to be perfectly honest, it doesn't change much. You've consistently used scriptures that has no direct correlation to what you are attempting to claim.
In post #120 you cite Gen 1:27 in attempt to prove Satan's unique oneness with the 'beasts' described in Rev 13. And Gen 1:27 does no such thing.
In post #134 you use 2 Thess 2:3-4 to try and prove Satan's symbolic 'dragonhood', while pointing out that the 2nd beast in Rev 13 must be 'the dragon'. Again, the verses cited say no such thing and cannot be used to prove or even back up such an idea.
In that post you also quote various verses from Rev 13 in an attempt to converge the different beasts/dragons. However the reasoning you use are contradicted by the very scriptures you use, which clearly delineate each separate beast and their tasks.
You then appear to go to Exodus to try and justify numerology.

When you attempt to build a doctrine from verses that do not, even once, speak directly to an idea, you find yourself in troubling waters. It's permissible to have more...abstract, passages back up several firm and outright ones...but they are to be clear 'back up' ones. You, I'm afraid, have no outright verses stating what you believe. You're pulling threads and ideas that are just not there, and I'm sorry, but nothing you say will convince me otherwise. Scripture is the authority, and you have consistently shown that your understanding and use of it, is mistaken.

 

[Naomi25]

Thank you.
I am curious, what are the crucified, saved and born again "doing" on Earth During the Wrath of the Tribulation?

Glory to God,
Taken

Well...I think it depends on how you classify 'time of wrath'. I think...that there may be a divide between how some see the final time on earth. Some view it as a prelude to final judgement, which, clearly, those saved are not subject to. Which may explain why they are so adamant on the Church not 'going through' it. Others, however, would view it not as a 'prelude to final judgement', in terms of salvific destiny, but as just an increase of the normal sort of worldly tribulation that we have always seen...the types of birth pangs that will lead to the death of this fallen age and the birth of the next.
I would categorize myself as falling into the latter category. I would say that yes, there will be an increasing amount of trial and tribulation in the world, just as Jesus told us to expect. The earth groans, just as the people rage. God, in his justice, allows this to happen. He allows for natural disasters, for evil men to triumph. We might even call it his judgement upon a fallen world who made their choice. And just as they have all throughout this age, those elect who belong to God, must stand firm under this persecution and tribulation.
You ask what I believe we will be doing during this time? Revelation spells it out for us. We shall triumph over both tribulation and evil men by standing firm on the Lamb and loving our lives not until death. As many of our brothers and sisters are already doing, and may increasingly do in the upcoming years. But, like the Saviour we follow, we actually triumph over Satan and his minions when we forfeit our lives...he loses as he slays us...and we cry with one voice, "maranatha!"

 

[Naomi25]

Denial is a river in Egypt. Perhaps it's too difficult for you to read Psalms 44, 48, 91 etc. in context with History. So please be blissful in your ignorance.

Hard headed people ...
Bobby Jo

Maybe I am hard headed. But....I feel quite contented to just sit back and wait and see about this one. History proves all things, huh, and the 'modern' prophets are batting at about zero.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25

I think the beasts are just demons but whenever the Bible uses the term "Dragon" it means Satan.

Revelation 20:2 (NIV)

"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years."

Yes, I agree...that was the point I was attempting to make.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25
To All,

Why is something as easy as reading a couple Chapters of Psalms such a threat to someone's Christianity? If they actually read this 19th Book of the Bible, prophetic for the 1900's, -- Chapter for year --, would they fall into the pit by discovering that Book 19, Chapter 44 = 1944 Holocaust? Would the earth open up and swallow them if they read Book 19, Chapter 48 = 1948 to discover the International recognition of the State of Israel? Would they all drop dead if they read Book 19, Chapter 91 = 1991 and discovered a prophecy for Desert Storm? -- And of course the more we know about modern Jewish History, the more the Chapters and Verses align.

They say they're Christians, but why won't they read from Scripture? What are they afraid of?!?
Bobby Jo

Bobby: you assume people haven't read these passages. The fact that you have read what you want to see into these passages does not make us "not Christians". And it doesn't make what you want be there, there.
And here's the thing: I disagree with you. I don't hide it. Heck, at this point, I don't even respect you. But it's not my place to be making judgements on the state of your soul. But from the get-go of our conversation you have been pushy in your conversation, shoving your opinions around, which was slightly ironic since you love telling everyone else to stash theirs. It's 'not your job' to convince me of anything (ironic again since this is a conversation board), but apparently its okay for you to be rude, be loud, question my relationship with Jesus and then make assumptions about my ability to read.
I do hope that one day you realize that deflecting questions with aggression only works on the dim. And the fact that you feel justified to question others' state of salvation based only on how they see a passage is remarkable, especially considering how much...reading into...those passages you've done. Goodness, even Nostradamus would be proud: "there will be a plague in a port city"....ya think? Of course there will be. Israel was unfaithful and was punished? Goodness! God was faithful and restored her? Gosh! Sure....it MUST be a reference to 1948 and nothing else! And there was unrest in the Middle East? Say it isn't so!!
I'm about done with this, I've got better things to do. And I'm sure you'll find someone else to insult.

 

[Keraz]

I am curious, what are the crucified, saved and born again "doing" on Earth During the Wrath of the Tribulation?

Glory to God,
Taken

Revelation 12:6-17 tells us what the Christians will be doing during the GT.
Those who maintained their faith and refused any treaty with the Anti-Christ, will be taken to a place of safety on earth. V14
Those who agreed to that treaty must remain. Verse 17 and Daniel 11:32, Zechariah 14:2

It seems that those who remain will become most of the martyrs, as per Revelation 20:4