Guide To The Post Tribulation

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Keraz

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Yep, pretty much. The 'last day' of this present world is when Jesus returns, when He gathers His elect, when the earth will shake and all the mountains and islands moved out of their place, when He destroys a certain amount of the wicked, when He locks Satan in his pit prison along with the kings of the earth, when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off the earth, when Jesus takes reign with His elect over all nations, when all alive are changed, and when the dead are resurrected. And all of God's Word aligns with those events happening on the final day of this present world.
The belief of itallhappensinoneday, is not scriptural. Let alone logical or sensible.
There is a given sequence of events, why conflate them?
 
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Davy

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The belief of itallhappensinoneday, is not scriptural. Let alone logical or sensible.
There is a given sequence of events, why conflate them?

I think it's very logical, and... sensible. The reason is because it is God's written Word. What you have failed to do is to see the forest, because you've focused too much on the trees. It takes The Holy Spirit for it all to be put together in the mind. Just study of letters only won't get it done; if just study of letters alone could get it done, then even the wicked would understand.
 

Timtofly

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Well your post is most certainly longer, with extra scripture, then when I answered it. You can go back and look at what I replied to (#138), it only shows your "incomplete" answer. So you can forgive me for wondering if you've backtracked and added.
But, to be perfectly honest, it doesn't change much. You've consistently used scriptures that has no direct correlation to what you are attempting to claim.
In post #120 you cite Gen 1:27 in attempt to prove Satan's unique oneness with the 'beasts' described in Rev 13. And Gen 1:27 does no such thing.
In post #134 you use 2 Thess 2:3-4 to try and prove Satan's symbolic 'dragonhood', while pointing out that the 2nd beast in Rev 13 must be 'the dragon'. Again, the verses cited say no such thing and cannot be used to prove or even back up such an idea.
In that post you also quote various verses from Rev 13 in an attempt to converge the different beasts/dragons. However the reasoning you use are contradicted by the very scriptures you use, which clearly delineate each separate beast and their tasks.
You then appear to go to Exodus to try and justify numerology.

When you attempt to build a doctrine from verses that do not, even once, speak directly to an idea, you find yourself in troubling waters. It's permissible to have more...abstract, passages back up several firm and outright ones...but they are to be clear 'back up' ones. You, I'm afraid, have no outright verses stating what you believe. You're pulling threads and ideas that are just not there, and I'm sorry, but nothing you say will convince me otherwise. Scripture is the authority, and you have consistently shown that your understanding and use of it, is mistaken.
It is not a doctrine. It is understanding God’s plan of Atonement. It shows all of history, and how history ends. If it is not for you, that is ok.
 

Bobby Jo

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... History proves all things ...

... and you refuse to look at HISTORY, -- 1944; 1948; 1991 -- ; so you don't even live up to your own words.

Is there ANY Truth in you?!? -- It doesn't seem so.
Bobby Jo
 
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Bobby Jo

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... I disagree with you. ...

If you disagreed with me, you'd explain WHY Psalm 44, 48, 91, etc. don't depict events for the Jews for those years. But that's not what you done. You disagree with Scripture because you won't even read the Chapters and Verses.

And if you don't like GOD's Word on earth, you probably won't be happy in "heaven". So that leaves only one other option.
Bobby Jo
 
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Enoch111

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I am curious, what are the crucified, saved and born again "doing" on Earth During the Wrath of the Tribulation?
No one will ever be able to answer that, since the words "church" and "churches" are not found between Revelation 6 and 18.
 

Bobby Jo

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... the words "church" and "churches" are not found between Revelation 6 and 18.

The Book of Revelation specifically depicts the church having to endure during these days:

Rev. 13:10 ... Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.
Rev. 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


Bobby Jo
 
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Enoch111

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Rev. 13:10 ... Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.
Have you heard of the Tribulation saints? They are all beheaded during that time (Rev 20). But the entire Church is not beheaded, and is actually in Heaven during that period, in order to return with Christ after the Great Tribulation (Rev 19).
 

Davy

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Have you heard of the Tribulation saints? They are all beheaded during that time (Rev 20). But the entire Church is not beheaded, and is actually in Heaven during that period, in order to return with Christ after the Great Tribulation (Rev 19).

That some of the saints will be delivered up and suffer, during the tribulation, not all the Church will suffer death, otherwise there would be no rapture by Christ of the Church on the same day as the raising of the dead.

Did the Pre-tribulationalists forget to teach you that the resurrection happens on that day when Jesus descends to gather His Church?

1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

That resurrection of the 'asleep' saints happens on the last day of this world, not prior to the great tribulation.
 

Bobby Jo

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Have you heard of the Tribulation saints? They are all beheaded during that time (Rev 20). But the entire Church is not beheaded, and is actually in Heaven during that period, in order to return with Christ after the Great Tribulation (Rev 19).

News flash. The church consists of the saints.

Bobby Jo
 

JunChosen

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That resurrection of the 'asleep' saints happens on the last day of this world, not prior to the great tribulation.

I agree. Four times in John 6 Jesus said He will raise up the saints on the last day. What is going to be raised? The bodies of the saints who are with Jesus in heaven and together with the saints who are living on earth at that time. This is known as the Rapture/catching up in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
 
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Bobby Jo

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... Four times in John 6 Jesus said He will raise up the saints on the last day. What is going to be raised? The bodies of the saints who are with Jesus in heaven and together with the saints who are living on earth at that time. This is known as the Rapture/catching up in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

... and it occurs after the DEAD are raised, at the end of the thousand years.


Bobby Jo
 

Enoch111

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News flash. The church consists of the saints.
There are also Tribulation saints, jut as there were Old Testament saints before the Church came into existence. And there will also be Millennial saints after the Millennium is established on earth.
 

Enoch111

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Did the Pre-tribulationalists forget to teach you that the resurrection happens on that day when Jesus descends to gather His Church?
And did the Bible teach you that the day when Christ descends to earth WITH His saints there will be a GREAT SLAUGHTER at the battle of Armageddon? No resurrection, simply a river of blood 200 miles long and five feet deep, with thousands of predatory birds feasting on the flesh of those slaughtered?

When Christ comes to gather His Church, He comes "in the air" and then returns to Heaven with all the saints at the Resurrection/Rapture. He does not descend to earth at that time.
 

Bobby Jo

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There are also Tribulation saints, jut as there were Old Testament saints before the Church came into existence. And there will also be Millennial saints after the Millennium is established on earth.

... and BOTH will go through the Tribulation, for which we're already some 25 of 42 months into.

Then after the thousand years are ended, the DEAD are raised (with the exception of the martyred for not receiving the Mark of which ONLY THEY will Return with Jesus), and then those that alive and remain shall be caught up to the New Jerusalem to be with the LORD forever in the air.


But what is Scripture versus FALSE DOCTRINES?!?
Bobby Jo
 
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Davy

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I agree. Four times in John 6 Jesus said He will raise up the saints on the last day. What is going to be raised? The bodies of the saints who are with Jesus in heaven and together with the saints who are living on earth at that time. This is known as the Rapture/catching up in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

Well, yes and no. The discussion I've been having is about what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 of what type of body the resurrection is. Paul taught that those alive on that day will be 'changed'. He taught the resurrection body is to a body of incorruption, what he called a "spiritual body". So really no, the flesh bodies of those alive will be changed on that day. Everyone is going to wind up being in the same kind of body, the spiritual body, including the wicked dead who are raised then too per John 5:28-29.

So what I am showing is the difference between a tradition of men vs. what God's Word actually says as written.
 

Davy

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And did the Bible teach you that the day when Christ descends to earth WITH His saints there will be a GREAT SLAUGHTER at the battle of Armageddon? No resurrection, simply a river of blood 200 miles long and five feet deep, with thousands of predatory birds feasting on the flesh of those slaughtered?

When Christ comes to gather His Church, He comes "in the air" and then returns to Heaven with all the saints at the Resurrection/Rapture. He does not descend to earth at that time.

Armageddon happens on the last day too, yes. And that is AFTER the tribulation. NONE of the Scriptures point to His coming PRIOR to the tribulation, and that's the point.
 

Timtofly

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Well, yes and no. The discussion I've been having is about what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 of what type of body the resurrection is. Paul taught that those alive on that day will be 'changed'. He taught the resurrection body is to a body of incorruption, what he called a "spiritual body". So really no, the flesh bodies of those alive will be changed on that day. Everyone is going to wind up being in the same kind of body, the spiritual body, including the wicked dead who are raised then too per John 5:28-29.

So what I am showing is the difference between a tradition of men vs. what God's Word actually says as written.
The tradition of men states a spiritual resurrection. Paul does not call it that. It is incorruption and immortality 1 Corinthians 15:53-54

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This is in contrast to these verses: 1 Corinthians 15:40-46

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

That was the accepted human tradition. Then Paul declares Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 15:47-51

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Jesus Christ was the full image of God. We are not. Paul is explaining that those in Christ are not in the full image (of God) until the Rapture. It is not just physical death that has to happen. Physical death is just the corrupt body of flesh changed to an incorruptible body in Paradise. But the restoration of God’s spirit image, will not be until the rapture. Those alive do not die, but are changed in the air to both incorruptible and immortality in a single act. The restored son of God, like Adam was before he disobeyed God and God changed his body to one of corruption and mortality.

Now Paul states in 2 Corinthians 5:1-9
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Is Paul contradicting 1 Corinthians 15? What resurrection places any human in Paradise? If the dead in Christ are in Paradise now, then their resurrection came first. It was not bodily, but happened at the moment of death. What body is resurrected, if all in Paradise already have an incorruptible soul body? The full restoration has not happened yet, even for those in Paradise. Are they going to leave Paradise and join with their dead flesh body to go through the change all over again one day, just to prove one last bodily resurrection?

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, that they have been rising first. It has already been happening over and over again, each time one in Christ leaves this body to be present with the Lord.
 

JunChosen

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Well, yes and no. The discussion I've been having is about what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 of what type of body the resurrection is. Paul taught that those alive on that day will be 'changed'. He taught the resurrection body is to a body of incorruption, what he called a "spiritual body". So really no, the flesh bodies of those alive will be changed on that day. Everyone is going to wind up being in the same kind of body, the spiritual body, including the wicked dead who are raised then too per John 5:28-29.

So what I am showing is the difference between a tradition of men vs. what God's Word actually says as written.

Does not most Christians know of 1 Corinthians 15:50, ff?