Guide To The Post Tribulation

[Timtofly]

US, being General, gives NO indication WHO is the "Specific US".
You have decided the "US" IS Christians.
Scripture never mentions Christians IN Revelations.
The word Christian...was devised BY non-believers, Calling other men WHO believed AND other men WHO were Following Christ's teachings.
Major Religions TODAY are Very Confusing.
(A topic for another Time).
But for the word "Christian" as used "Today"...
* Men believing AND Following...(who Can fall away an stop Believing and Following)...are called Christians.
* Men believing AND Following AND Converted...(who CAN NOT fall away)...are called Christians.
* YET ...Jesus defined THEM Specifically "AS "
"Converted" IN Christ.
BY their Very Death?
Physical Death Does NOT Save men.
"Conversion", Crucified With Christ, Saves and Quickens men to Everlasting Life.
The "Conversion", IS the Triumph, (Not armies of men killing men,) IN Keeping the Credit TO Christ, (not an Army who kills physical bodies).

I would say ISRAEL for ancient TO modern history have been (In Bondage, Slaves, Outcasts, Tortured, Martyred) Expressly for Their Faith IN the Heavenly God.
AND a primary factor, why, those of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin, who were coming To Jesus; STOPPED Believing and following After Jesus the Christ, not many years After the Apostals Of Christ died off).

Killing of Converted Christians, For their Faith IN Christ Jesus, is a more modern and Isolated, (to specific regions), NOT World wide.

* IT ? - Yes - The Beast (World Authority Govt)
( under government control of A Worshiped "false god"; the dragon/(Satan/Devil/anti-Christ/Likeness as a man/all one in the same).
* ALLOWED ?- Yes - BY Whom? The Lamb of God.
* WHEN ? - Beginning of Tribulation. Opening of the First FOUR SEALS, BY the Lamb of God.
* AUTHORITY ? - Yes - BY Whom? The Power of God.
* WHO IS THE Power of God? - CHRIST.
* IT - Beast & false god, Given Power & Authority TO MAKE War ON "THEM".
* THEM ? - who?- "Saints".
* what "Saints"?
* Who are "these" Saints?
* Why are "they called" Saints?
* Where are "these" Saints?
THE SAINTS:
* Saints: OT/ men Faithful To God and His Word...Saved...at their Physical Death.
* Saints: NT/ ISRAEL men REMAINING UNDER OT LAW/ Remaining Faithful to God and His Word: Saved at Physical Death: (thereafter, called a Saint).
* During Tribulation- ISRAEL (Gods People) SENT Servants To Teach ISRAEL...JESUS IS "their" (the 12 Tribes) Christ Messiah Savior.
JESUS "IS" the Word of God.
CHRIST "IS" the Power of God.
Christ Jesus "IS" "their" (12 Tribes/ISRAEL) "Salvation"...BEFORE Physical Death.
* Sainthood- ALIVE in their FLESH, ON Earth- - CONVERTED IN Christ- BEFORE Physical Death.
ALSO - the Same Applies TO ANY Gentile- During the Tribulation-
ALIVE IN their FLESH- ON Earth- Electing to Believe IN God, IN Christ Jesus- becoming "Converted" IN Christ...
ARE the Saints, ON Earth, ALIVE IN their Flesh, ALLOWED TO BE Physically KILLED, BY the Power given the Dragon/Satan and The Army under the Authority OF Satan.

No, I will not BE ON Earth During the Tribulation..."Coming INTO Belief, IN God, IN Christ Jesus, Converting, Becoming a Saint, and THEN being Allowed "By the Lamb of God," TO BE Killed BY the Power given Satan.

I have Already Established with the Lord God, my Belief IN Him...I have Already GIVEN my Life To Him...His Power has Already MADE me Converted...I am Already EXCEPTED FROM Satan TAKING / KILLING my Physical Life. <-- My Physical Life was Already "by me", GIVEN TO Christ Jesus.

Continued to Your next point.

Glory to God,
Taken

It is not realistic to claim that Satan and his false prophet only pop up for just 3.5 years. John just does not signify the exact time.

John does not even get to disclose the 7 Thunders. But it is very clear, that John does not want us to look for some antichrist. His other letters say to do that, the whole church age, and to forget about them.

The church is not even prepared for the seals. Some claim they are all open. Really, was the church prepared? Are we now sealed or unsealed? After the 7th seal is open there are no guarantees. The book can now be edited. Names removed. Names never found, what not. The living church will soon figure out who is who in the 6th seal.

However, after the surprise of the 6th seal, the field is pretty much open. Satan and his false prophet will not be hiding out any more. John does not give them much letter space. I do think he is pointing out past history in Revelation 13. How much is any one's guess. We have been taught it ties in with Daniel. We will know soon enough.

 

[Taken]

Naomi25 -

And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, -Revelation 11:7

* They? -
The TWO Servants Sent BY God TO Jerusalem, To Israel For Israel (Gods People).
* Their Testimony?-
Jesus IS the Word of God.
Christ IS the Power of God.
Christ Jesus IS Israel's (12 Tribes) Salvation.
Become Converted.
Do not Fear.
You Will Be Saved.
The Beast (world Govt) shall have Power to KILL your FLESH Body.
Do not Fear.
The Spirit and Power of God SHALL Raise up your Mortally Dead Body, IN a Glorious IMMORTAL Body, that Shall Live Forever With the Lord God Almighty, VOID of All Evil and Wickedness and pain and Sorrow.

And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. -Revelation 12:11

* They?
* They ARE -
All who Become CONVERTED IN Christ, having Converted During the Tribulation WHILE "ALIVE" IN their Flesh, and Loving the Lord God, Greater than their OWN FLESH Life...and...GIVE "their" FLESH Life TO Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing...And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire—and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. -Revelation 15:1a,2

I would say this is a Reference TO Gods Holy Angel's WHO have "Conquered" the Beast AND its Image AND the number of its name.
This Ends the 7 TRUMPS.
Satan and his Unholy Angels are Cast into Hell for 1,000 years.
Dead men's Saved souls are Removed from the Earth.
Saved and Unsaved dead bodies litter the Earth.
Remaining Living "Unbelieving" men are Now going to Experience the Seven (BOWLS / VIALS ) of Gods Wrath.

Rev 16
[1] And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Avalon1]

Post-tribulation Rapture | Endtime Ministries with Dave Robbins

 

[Avalon1]

Understanding The Rapture | Dr. Irvin Baxter on the Jim Bakker Show

 

[Taken]

Yes...an no. Salvation is both something we receive from Christ when we are Justified; when our hearts are made new in the our acceptance of his blood spilled in our place.[/B]

Yes. That is a Specific "WE".
"WE" who?
"WE" who "ARE" CONVERTED.
When? BEFORE the Tribulation Begins.
When Shall the Tribulation BEGIN?
No man Knows.

So what does it matter IF a man IS Converted BEFORE the Tribulation BEGINS?
IT Doesn't Matter "IF" an Individual "WANTS" to Experience "Whole World" TRIBULATION... a TRIBULATION Greater than what the Whole World (Except 8 people), experienced During The Great World Flood.

Matt. 4:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Tribulation is Coming.
The Converted have NOT been Appointed to Tribulation or Gods Wrath.
As in Noah's Day, The Saved Shall be RISEN Above the Face of the Earth.

Christ Jesus Offered Every man Opportunity TO BE:
Forgiven, (for having had Disbelief)
Sins Covered, (by Gods Light)
Sanctified (set apart),
Justified, (Avoid Tribulation /Wrath),
Saved (soul), (soul Restored good)
Quickened (spirit), (Eternal Life from Gods Seed,)
Redeemed (Lifting UP) (Of Immortal Body).

So when the Tribulation Comes...
What About:
Millions of people following The Word of God...but have made No commitment To become Converted?

What About:
The Millions of The Tribes of ISRAEL who Are Faithful to God, but Reject Christ Jesus?

What About:
The Millions of The Tribes of ISRAEL who Are neither Faithful To God, or Christ Jesus?

What About:
the Millions of Gentiles who DO NOT Believe IN God or Christ Jesus?

Really?
What about those Specific People?
Do you think "maybe" the End of Days Tribulation IS specifically For Them?

What say you?
Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

US, being General, gives NO indication WHO is the "Specific US".

You asked what we would be doing during the last '7' years here. So, in point of fact, it is YOU who have defined who the US is. I was merely answering your question.

You have decided the "US" IS Christians.
Scripture never mentions Christians IN Revelations.

Right. You're the guy who has a thing about the specific terminology of "those of us who follow Christ".
I don't particularly CARE what YOU want to call it. The bible itself uses several phrases. It tells us that we've been called 'people of the way' or 'Christians', 'elect' or 'Saints'.
The important thing, you'll agree, is that the people group we are referring to are those who have placed their trust in Christ as their redeemer. Their sacrificial Lamb of God.
And those? They are all over the place in Revelation.

BY their Very Death?
Physical Death Does NOT Save men.
"Conversion", Crucified With Christ, Saves and Quickens men to Everlasting Life.
The "Conversion", IS the Triumph, (Not armies of men killing men,) IN Keeping the Credit TO Christ, (not an Army who kills physical bodies).

I did NOT say that physical death SAVED them. I said they TRIUMPHED over their enemies with their deaths. Do you know what the definition of 'triumph' is? "the act, fact or condition of being victorious, triumphant; conquest."

And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. -Revelation 12:11

This is not saying we MUST die to triumph over our enemies. It is merely a reflection of what Paul teaches: if we live, we live for Christ. If our enemies kill us, death has no sting in Christ's victory. Satan CAN NOT defeat us or even, ultimately, hurt us. In this way, we ARE triumphant over him in ALL things; be that living or dying, plenty or suffering.

No, I will not BE ON Earth During the Tribulation..."Coming INTO Belief, IN God, IN Christ Jesus, Converting, Becoming a Saint, and THEN being Allowed "By the Lamb of God," TO BE Killed BY the Power given Satan.

I have Already Established with the Lord God, my Belief IN Him...I have Already GIVEN my Life To Him...His Power has Already MADE me Converted...I am Already EXCEPTED FROM Satan TAKING / KILLING my Physical Life. <-- My Physical Life was Already "by me", GIVEN TO Christ Jesus.

Continued to Your next point.

Glory to God,
Taken

I don't see a promise in scripture that exempts us from hardship and tribulation on this world. In fact, the verses that speak of tribulation and Christ's coming put the tribulation IN FRONT of Christ's return.
I cannot deny your scheme is more appealing, but, as always, I must remain true to what I see scripture saying. So...I suppose we'll see, won't we?

 

[Naomi25]

I would say this is a Reference TO Gods Holy Angel's WHO have "Conquered" the Beast AND its Image AND the number of its name.
This Ends the 7 TRUMPS.
Satan and his Unholy Angels are Cast into Hell for 1,000 years.
Dead men's Saved souls are Removed from the Earth.
Saved and Unsaved dead bodies litter the Earth.
Remaining Living "Unbelieving" men are Now going to Experience the Seven (BOWLS / VIALS ) of Gods Wrath.

Rev 16
[1] And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Glory to God,
Taken

Except most bibles will refer Rev 15:2 right back to Rev 12:11, and its easy to see why:

And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire—and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. -Revelation 15:2

And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. -Revelation 12:11

We are not told anywhere in Revelation that angels 'conquer' the beast and his number or image. Instead we are told, rather directly, that the Saints are the ones who conquer him, his image and his mark by the blood of the Lamb, their testimony, and even their death.
Logically, that tells us that those being spoken of in Rev 15 must be Saints.

 

[Naomi25]

Yes. That is a Specific "WE".
"WE" who?
"WE" who "ARE" CONVERTED.
When? BEFORE the Tribulation Begins.
When Shall the Tribulation BEGIN?
No man Knows.

So what does it matter IF a man IS Converted BEFORE the Tribulation BEGINS?
IT Doesn't Matter "IF" an Individual "WANTS" to Experience "Whole World" TRIBULATION... a TRIBULATION Greater than what the Whole World (Except 8 people), experienced During The Great World Flood.
Matt. 4:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Tribulation is Coming.
The Converted have NOT been Appointed to Tribulation or Gods Wrath.
As in Noah's Day, The Saved Shall be RISEN Above the Face of the Earth.

You say "the converted have NOT been appointed to Tribulation or God's Wrath". You are half right. We are not appointed to God's wrath. But Tribulation? That we are promised plenty of.

Matthew 24:9 - “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.

Matthew 24:21 - For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Matthew 24:29 - “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

John 16:33 - I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22 - strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Romans 8:35 - Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

Romans 12:12 - Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.

Revelation 1:9 - I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 2:9 - “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 2:10 - Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Revelation 7:14 - I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These verses coming out of the whole NT show that we WILL always have tribulation with us. From when the Disciples walked the earth, til the moment Christ returns. Christ, and Paul, encourage us to stand firm, be faithful, and our reward will be great. Because no...we are not destined for wrath. Wrath, as talked about in context of these things, is the lake of fire, that place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. And no...we have no part of that.

 

[Bobby Jo]

If you want to see all my research and points all of which is fully cited with scripture I suggest that you go back and read my post on page 1. Otherwise we don't have anything more to discuss.

You are more dishonest than the "world", because you profess righteousness, but practice deceit. -- After slandering me, I asked whether you read the Psalms in context with modern Jewish History, and you divert the discussion to nonsense.


Woe to you.
Bobby Jo

 

[Taken]

However, there is evidence in scripture that 'salvation' is also a daily wrestling on our behalf in some way. It is, of course, in conjunction with the Spirits work within us. We could call it sanctification, this ongoing walk of salvation.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. -Philippians 2:12–13

And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. -Luke 9:23–24

As have I. But I fully acknowledge that a day might come when the Lord might call me into martyrdom. Or any number of other things. Like Job, we cannot know the battle raging in the spiritual places, and that is what Revelation is showing most heavily; the out-workings on earth of that spiritual raging. We may only see the pestilence, the earthquakes, the evil men doing evil things, but anyone who believes in God knows that there is a very real spiritual realm and war going on behind most things. This is why, when we see our brothers and sisters in Christ in the Middle East martyred most horribly, we grieve for them, but we know with utmost certainty that they were met on the other side with the phrase "well done good and faithful servant!" They stood firm in their faith even to the point of death! They will be rewarded with the crown of life and a given a white robe to wear. waiting for that moment when those who tormented and killed them will face the ultimate Judge of everything.

.

I believe "Signs" Have Been Given mankind SINCE the Beginning of mankind.
I believe "Signs" are EXPRESSLY "for" All of mankind ... "To Take Notice" ...
OF what IS and what SHALL come to pass.

SOME people;
* Do Not take Notice of the Signs.
* Do Take Notice, to Comprehend HOW the ...Sign Effects Them or Applies to Them AND
...Understands WHY.
* Do try To USE a particular Sign To Prove the ...the precise Hour of Tribulation IS Come.
* Do try to USE a particular Sign To Prove
... God does Not Exist, Because "they" have ... Not witnessed a particular Sign coming to
... pass.

Personally "for me"...ONLY the Lord God AND myself "KNOWS"... "What" IN AND OF His Word APPLIES TO ME.

(That is to say; ALL of Gods Word IS TRUE, YET All of Gods Word Does NOT Apply TO All.)

Tribulation means:
* "A cause" of great trouble or suffering.
* "a state" of great trouble or suffering

There Have Been "tribulations" ALL men have had to Face.

In the END of Days "as" we know each Day...
False gods, deceptive marketing and backroom deals, weather disturbances, Cheating & Lying (amongst spouses, students, businessmen, politicians, neighbors, friends, enemies, nations, etc.)

1. [30] He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Luke.11

1. [23] He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

All are DIVISIONS AMONGST men AGAINST men...

* God Has Revealed...
He "Caused" "DIVISIONS" amongst men in the OT...(Tribes of ISRAEL and Gentiles)
Gen 10:5
* Jesus Has Revealed...
He "Caused" "DIVISIONS" amongst men in the NT and forward...
Luke 12: 51
John 7:
[43] So there was a division among the people because of him.

We have A NOTICE OF;
The DIVIDED people and "Exactly what that means."
It matters NOT the Era of Any man's existence;
* OT men- (Faithful To God ... Revealed their Faithfulness "THROUGH" obedience TO the Word of God IN their Spoken and Written (with Ink on Paper) IN Laws, Given of God, To Moses, forward To The Tribes of Israel, Divided From Gentile's).

We have A NOTICE OF;
A later Era:
* NT men - (Faithful to God ... Revealed and continue Revealing their Faithfulness "THROUGH" obedience TO the Word of God,
IN the FLESH Likeness as a man, Spoken and Written (NOT with ink and paper) But rather Written IN the (Circumcised) New Heart of a man.)

The DIVIDED ARE Specific:

Matt. 12:
[30] He that is not with me is against me;
Luke 11:
[23] He that is not with me is against me:

The WHOLE Point of the END of Days Tribulation:
IS: (for 3.5 years...TO GIVE ALL men, their Last Opportunity, TO DECIDE "Their Own Standing"...(Divided With the Lord God or Divided Against The Lord God)
And "SEPARATE" THEM.
The Lord God Taking All Who Have "Vowed" a Standing WITH the Lord God Before and During those 3.5 years...Spiritually ( Saved soul and Quickened spirit) SEPARATED; Forever With the Lord God. (Their Bodies physically DEAD, RISEN and Claimed Later.)

The last 3.5 years IS For:
Mankind ON Earth to Experience what They Chose.
Absolute Avoidance of The Lord God IN of and Affecting their Lives...with His Love, Beauty, Provisions of Blessings of Bounty/ rain, crops, Pleasantries Of the Earth's Beauty and weather, etc.
"In stead " Absolute Subjection to a False "god", THEY CHOSE, on his promises of Peace and Safety... They will experience, chaos, failing crops, By weather disturbances and insect swarms, famine; Destruction of dwellings, By war results and fires and weather disturbances; Diseases BY Insect Bites, LacK of Nutrition, spread of Infections.
(NOT what THEY Expected...BECAUSE...THEY Freely Chose to Reject and STAND Against The Truth of the Creator and Maker.)

IS: (for 3.5 years "SEPARATION" "OF" All the "DIVIDED".
And WHO is "Allowing" those Days? God
And WHO will "Cause" the expedient State of DIVISION? Satan.
And WHO shall "Claim" those WITH The Lord God? The Lord God.
And TO WHOM shall "the Unclaimed" (by God), BE Given? Death.

I have Already Established "my" individual STANDING "WITH" the Lord God, "according TO the Lord God's OFFERING and Promise of WHAT Applies TO me, FOR ACCEPTING His Offering."

I too believe everyone will stand before the Judgement seat of God. Thus, the books shall be opened. Where we spend eternity and how we are judged will depend on which book our names are found it.

Yes.
After Tribulation, After the 1,000 yr Reign.

But yes, it appears we see things very differently. It's interesting, isn't it, how people can read the same texts and come away with very different takes?

I would agree, people have differences of opinions.
I can not speak for others, but for myself I fellowship with others wherever I am. As far as "going" To a church, I don't. For many who do attend a church, good for them...so maybe
They get a 150 "hours" a year of preaching on a Topic someone else decided they should hear. Whereas I prefer to spend at the least 2 hours daily and often times more reading and studying Gods Word & private communication with the Lord. His miracles are always so Awesome.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

You asked what we would be doing during the last '7' years here. So, in point of fact, it is YOU who have defined who the US is. I was merely answering your question.


Right. You're the guy who has a thing about the specific terminology of "those of us who follow Christ".

Correct...and l gave Jesus' perspective on the matter.

Again:
Matt 18:
[3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye beconverted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Point being:
Anyone can Follow and call themselves a Christian....and can QUIT Following and QUIT calling Themselves a Christian.
Except
A man who IS "Converted" can NEVER QUIT and Become "Unconverted". And they Also are called Christians.

So one is a Christian...who can QUIT.
And one is a Christian...who can NOT QUIT.
Strange to me to Use the same "Term", that can
mean ABLE to QUIT and UNABLE to QUIT.
Jesus Established the Term: Converted for those Who can NOT QUIT.

I don't particularly CARE what YOU want to call it. The bible itself uses several phrases. It tells us that we've been called 'people of the way' or 'Christians', 'elect' or 'Saints'.

I believe Context matters for specific Terms.

The important thing, you'll agree, is that the people group we are referring to are those who have placed their trust in Christ as their redeemer. Their sacrificial Lamb of God.
And those?

May be The Converted or Not.
Don't you recall Jesus' own Disciples; at times doubting Him, denying Him...Even when they were "following" Him?
It was their "Confession" and "Conversion" that ENDED their Ability to Ever Again "doubt, deny, NOT Trust Him."

They are all over the place in Revelation.

I have Already stated:
* During the Tribulation men ARE coming into Belief in Christ Jesus. Primarily: Faithful to God Tribes of Israel.

Please show me ONE verse of anyone "Converted" IN Christ Before the Tribulation Begins...that is in Revelations Tribulation period.

I did NOT say that physical death SAVED them. I said they TRIUMPHED over their enemies with their deaths. Do you know what the definition of 'triumph' is? "the act, fact or condition of being victorious, triumphant; conquest."

Coming TO Christ Saves Men.
Becoming Bodily DEAD IN Christ, Effects they will be Bodily Raised IN Glory/IMMORTAL/ Uncorrupted.

And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. -Revelation 12:11

This is not saying we MUST die to triumph over our enemies. It is merely a reflection of what Paul teaches: if we live, we live for Christ. If our enemies kill us, death has no sting in Christ's victory. Satan CAN NOT defeat us or even, ultimately, hurt us. In this way, we ARE triumphant over him in ALL things; be that living or dying, plenty or suffering.

Yes, Overcome.

I don't see a promise in scripture that exempts us from hardship and tribulation on this world.
In fact, the verses that speak of tribulation and Christ's coming put the tribulation IN FRONT of Christ's return.

I have already expectedly stated:
Everyone experiences Tribulations.
The End of Days Tribulation is a Specific Time, being discussed, unlike any Time in history, or will ever be again.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Bobby Jo]

...

Pretty funny. @Naomi25 said "7 years" in reference to the duration of the Tribulation, and YOU swallowed the lie. -- Of course you probably believed the lie in the first place, but Daniel's seventieth week has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the duration of the Tribulation except that the destroyer "shall come" AFTER the seventy weeks, -- some three decades AFTER.

Perhaps Rev. 13:5 is correct. Perhaps you should read it.
Bobby Jo

 

[Naomi25]

Personally "for me"...ONLY the Lord God AND myself "KNOWS"... "What" IN AND OF His Word APPLIES TO ME.

(That is to say; ALL of Gods Word IS TRUE, YET All of Gods Word Does NOT Apply TO All.)

So, you're basically saying you have final say in regards to what scripture 'applies' to you. In other words...if you don't particularly like the Church authority you're supposed to sit under, you can give yourself a pass. With 'Gods okay' of course. Which no one else could possibly back up...they'd have to trust your say so.
That just smells a little dodgy to me, and not exactly something I feel you could prove via scripture.
We can say that not all scripture is about us. But all of it speaks to our life in one way or another. Because all of it speaks towards God's character, or sin character. We have one, and we are constantly trying to be in relationship with God. That makes all of scripture "profitable".

The WHOLE Point of the END of Days Tribulation:
IS: (for 3.5 years...TO GIVE ALL men, their Last Opportunity, TO DECIDE "Their Own Standing"...(Divided With the Lord God or Divided Against The Lord God)
And "SEPARATE" THEM.
The Lord God Taking All Who Have "Vowed" a Standing WITH the Lord God Before and During those 3.5 years...Spiritually ( Saved soul and Quickened spirit) SEPARATED; Forever With the Lord God. (Their Bodies physically DEAD, RISEN and Claimed Later.)

The last 3.5 years IS For:
Mankind ON Earth to Experience what They Chose.
Absolute Avoidance of The Lord God IN of and Affecting their Lives...with His Love, Beauty, Provisions of Blessings of Bounty/ rain, crops, Pleasantries Of the Earth's Beauty and weather, etc.
"In stead " Absolute Subjection to a False "god", THEY CHOSE, on his promises of Peace and Safety... They will experience, chaos, failing crops, By weather disturbances and insect swarms, famine; Destruction of dwellings, By war results and fires and weather disturbances; Diseases BY Insect Bites, LacK of Nutrition, spread of Infections.
(NOT what THEY Expected...BECAUSE...THEY Freely Chose to Reject and STAND Against The Truth of the Creator and Maker.)

IS: (for 3.5 years "SEPARATION" "OF" All the "DIVIDED".
And WHO is "Allowing" those Days? God
And WHO will "Cause" the expedient State of DIVISION? Satan.
And WHO shall "Claim" those WITH The Lord God? The Lord God.
And TO WHOM shall "the Unclaimed" (by God), BE Given? Death.

I have Already Established "my" individual STANDING "WITH" the Lord God, "according TO the Lord God's OFFERING and Promise of WHAT Applies TO me, FOR ACCEPTING His Offering."

I see this as a logic fallacy. Some places on earth are already under the greatest persecution or 'tribulation' imaginable. Drought, starvation, war, pestilence, poverty, fear, terrorism. They die even now, having chosen for Christ or not. They do not need a special 3.5 years. Why would the rest of the world?

Yes.
After Tribulation, After the 1,000 yr Reign.

Which 1 Cor 15 tells us is AT Christ's second coming. He 'hands over the kingdom to the Father' AFTER defeating the last enemy; death. Death is defeated at the Rapture, which again, is at his return. And we know, from Rev 20, that when death is defeated, it is cast into the lake of fire, which is after the 1000 years.

I would agree, people have differences of opinions.
I can not speak for others, but for myself I fellowship with others wherever I am. As far as "going" To a church, I don't. For many who do attend a church, good for them...so maybe
They get a 150 "hours" a year of preaching on a Topic someone else decided they should hear. Whereas I prefer to spend at the least 2 hours daily and often times more reading and studying Gods Word & private communication with the Lord. His miracles are always so Awesome.

Glory to God,
Taken

It's not about 'hours'. It's about fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ. Paul mentions the importance of this, so I don't dismiss it. And even if you disagree with you Pastor on some things, any Pastor worth his salt is happy to discuss such things, thus you have a teaching, growing, iron sharpening iron moment. It's hard to have those when you're by yourself. True, the Spirit whispers, but the NT clearly encourages us to be in fellowship, so I believe that is better. No judgement though, I know for some people it just isn't feasible.

 

[Naomi25]

Correct...and l gave Jesus' perspective on the matter.

Again:
Matt 18:
[3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye beconverted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Point being:
Anyone can Follow and call themselves a Christian....and can QUIT Following and QUIT calling Themselves a Christian.
Except
A man who IS "Converted" can NEVER QUIT and Become "Unconverted". And they Also are called Christians.

So one is a Christian...who can QUIT.
And one is a Christian...who can NOT QUIT.
Strange to me to Use the same "Term", that can
mean ABLE to QUIT and UNABLE to QUIT.
Jesus Established the Term: Converted for those Who can NOT QUIT.

I believe Context matters for specific Terms.

And back in the day there were Jews walking around calling themselves Jews, safe in their circumcision, when Paul up and tells them that there circumcision meant nothing unless their hearts were also circumcised. So Jews weren't Jews and non-Jews WERE Jews.

My point being...PAUL'S point being: it doesn't really matter what WE call ourselves or others, it only matters what the state of our hearts are, and that we cannot hide from God. He knows what we are, and that's all that matters.

As far as calling ourselves "converted"...I question that. The NT lists that term 3 times, as far as I can tell and twice, its actually the Greek for "firstfruits" and the other time its "novice".
A far better term might be "Saints", which the NT references at least 61 times.

To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: -
Romans 1:7a

To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: -1 Corinthians 1:2

To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, - Ephesians 3:8

But the bible gives us permission to call ourselves Christians as well, and to not be ashamed of that label.

and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians. - Acts 11:26

Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. - 1 Peter 4:16

So basically....it doesn't matter if people are fickle and foolish. And they will be. It is sad that they mar the name of Christ, but we need not fear that he will not be vindicated in the end. The simple fact is this: God knows the heart of all, and the bible clearly doesn't reject the label of 'Christian'. If you want to, you stand against scripture, and you just make it plain confusing.

May be The Converted or Not.
Don't you recall Jesus' own Disciples; at times doubting Him, denying Him...Even when they were "following" Him?
It was their "Confession" and "Conversion" that ENDED their Ability to Ever Again "doubt, deny, NOT Trust Him."

Their conversion didn't make them perfect. Paul had to call Peter out to his face...and in front of others, no less, for something Christ had given him a direct vision about....that there is neither Jew nor Greek. Peter placed his fear of the 'circumcision party' above what Christ had shown him, and made a mistake in how he treated fellow Christians. He was, in effect, calling 'dirty' what God had called 'clean'.
And you might want to be careful with that line of reasoning. It is not wrong for Christians...truly converted, born again, fully in love with Christ believers, to have seasons of doubt and worry. What marks their truth faith is that they come through that dark valley with stronger faith.

I have Already stated:
* During the Tribulation men ARE coming into Belief in Christ Jesus. Primarily: Faithful to God Tribes of Israel.

Please show me ONE verse of anyone "Converted" IN Christ Before the Tribulation Begins...that is in Revelations Tribulation period.

Are you serious?

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. - Revelation 5:8

I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. - Revelation 7:14

Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, - Revelation 13:7

If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. - Revelation 13:10

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. - Revelation 14:12

And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly. - Revelation 17:6

And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, - Revelation 20:9

Here we see prayers from Saints on earth during this time. We see martyred Saints coming OUT OF the tribulation, we have Saints being warred against, taken captive, slain with the sword. A calling for a perseverance of Saints during this time. Babylon the Greats persecution of the Saints, and the last, great push of Satan against the Saints.

The great question here, of course, is, 'do "Saints" refer to Christians. And considering you dismiss the term "Christian" anyway, and also considering how OFTEN the NT uses the term "Saint" in everyday usage for those who follow Christ, there is NOTHING to determine that the usage in Revelation is anything other than what it appears.
Where the onus therefore lies, is for people to prove that one batch of "Saints" gets Raptured out of here before the 'next lot' have to suffer through what Revelation pictures. That one lot of 'Saints' is of a lesser rank, and doesn't measure up to the promises of God that the first lot get to claim.
I don't think those claims CAN be backed up.

 

[Naomi25]

Pretty funny. @Naomi25 said "7 years" in reference to the duration of the Tribulation, and YOU swallowed the lie.

"... you swallowed the lie..."
Just for reference: I don't believe in a literal 7 year period. I use it as framework when speaking to Dispensationalists or Premill's as that is what they recognize and makes the conversation easier if you start at a point they know.
So, I was not "lying". I don't even think most who believe in it are, really. I think they are mistaken. And starting a conversation off by accusing someone of lying doesn't make you too many friends.

 

[Keraz]

Which 1 Cor 15 tells us is AT Christ's second coming. He 'hands over the kingdom to the Father' AFTER defeating the last enemy; death. Death is defeated at the Rapture, which again, is at his return. And we know, from Rev 20, that when death is defeated, it is cast into the lake of fire, which is after the 1000 years.

This statement is very confused.
Rapture? Where is any prophecy that says the Lord will rapture His people to heaven?

Death was defeated at the Cross, but it will not be no more until after the Millennium, Rev 21:4
1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy for after the GWT, no one receives immortality before then.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... accusing someone of lying doesn't make you too many friends.

If I were here to "make friends", I'd have to nod my head with all your misinformation/disinformation, so that won't happen. I'm here to tell the TRUTH about Scripture, including Prophetic topics, -- kinda like how when Peter had his "view" of what Jesus should do, Jesus rebuked him and called him "satan".

Bobby Jo

 

[Timtofly]

The great question here, of course, is, 'do "Saints" refer to Christians. And considering you dismiss the term "Christian" anyway, and also considering how OFTEN the NT uses the term "Saint" in everyday usage for those who follow Christ, there is NOTHING to determine that the usage in Revelation is anything other than what it appears.

The church is the body of Christ. A saint is one who follows this body of Christ while alive. Some call for the "living church". I doubt that is a thing. We are not perfect, until we die in Christ and present with the Lord. A saint would be the church alive on earth, thus we use saint and not "living church". Any follower of Jesus during the judgments are literally accepting the Lamb. It is clearly stated that Jesus as the Lamb will be directly involved in the harvest of humanity. It will be on earth, just as Jesus was gathering the OT saints who would die, before the day on the Cross. After the Cross saints were the NT church. Understanding that in the 6th seal, the Lamb will come in person, is the key here.

The seal was not just opened to scare people. As for it being the very day of wrath, is not a given. No one dies at all in the text of the 6th seal. The death and harvest of the seals was done in the 4th seal. We are not given any time frames, because the 6th seal is the surprise "thief in the night". No more surprises after that. There are millions of written opinions on all that happens from then on. The only surprises will be on those, whose opinions, were wrong.

 

[Timtofly]

If I were here to "make friends", I'd have to nod my head with all your misinformation/disinformation, so that won't happen. I'm here to tell the TRUTH about Scripture, including Prophetic topics, -- kinda like how when Peter had his "view" of what Jesus should do, Jesus rebuked him and called him "satan".

Bobby Jo

You are definitely not Jesus. Peter is claimed to have spoken both truth and lies. Sounds familiar.