'Death is swallowed up in victory' -When?

[Joseph77]

This thread was derailed on the 8th or 9th page. Since then it has degenerated, so that the object of it's subject heading has been completely obliterated. Why could not each change of subject have been dealt with in a separate thread of it's own, instead of coming to this raggle-taggle insubstantial ending which has achieved nothing.

Well, be blessed and content that the thread lasted as long as you say it did (to the 8th or 9th page).
Most thread start out bad, like people born in the flesh, being flesh, and never get to a point of achieving good... (for most) ..... How often did God say "rare", or "remnant", or "few" in His Word and Plan and Purpose ? as in few are saved..... so don't expect a peaceful joyful gathering in a place where idols are daily set up and worshiped.

 

[Earburner]

This thread was derailed on the 8th or 9th page. Since then it has degenerated, so that the object of it's subject heading has been completely obliterated. Why could not each change of subject have been dealt with in a separate thread of it's own, instead of coming to this insubstantial ending. Each individual subject covered is now lost, having been overcome and superseded by another. It seems such a waste of time and effort.

All doctrines of Christianity pivot and divide on these two concepts:
1. Man was given an eternal soul.
2. Man became a living soul.

Now, lets talk about how total victory over death was accomplished by God's judgment of Eternal Life, through faith in His Son. John 3:18 Romans 8:8-9
Stop.
We have been!

 

[Joseph77]

'Behold, I shew you a mystery;
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

A good mystery !
Who does Jesus say does or did sleep ?

 

[Earburner]

Well, be blessed and content that the thread lasted as long as you say it did (to the 8th or 9th page).
Most thread start out bad, like people born in the flesh, being flesh, and never get to a point of achieving good... (for most) ..... How often did God say "rare", or "remnant", or "few" in His Word and Plan and Purpose ? as in few are saved..... so don't expect a peaceful joyful gathering in a place where idols are daily set up and worshiped.

Pet doctrines can be idols also!!

 

[Joseph77]

Is it related at all to this Scripture >>
Ephesians 5:14-17 NIV - This is why it is said: "Wake up ...
Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5:14-17 - New International Version
This is why it is said: "Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

 

[charity]

'Behold, I shew you a mystery;
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,' (1 Corinthians 15:51)
A good mystery !
Who does Jesus say does or did sleep ?

Is it related at all to this Scripture
Ephesians 5:14-17 NIV - This is why it is said: "Wake up ...
Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5:14-17 - New International Version
This is why it is said: "Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

Hello @Joseph77,

Question 1:- Who does Jesus say does or did sleep? (1 Corinthians 15:51)
Paul is talking in terms of 'we', therefore including himself with those to whom he wrote. The words of Peter in Acts 3:19-21 were awaiting a response from Israel as a nation to repent: had they done so, then the promise of God that He would send Jesus back to the earth, would have been fulfilled and the event of 1 Thessalonians 4:13+ would have taken place. So, Paul and some of those to whom Paul wrote would quite likely have been among those who were, alive and remained (1 Thessalonians 4:17) at His coming: though some would possibly have died in the interval, and were therefore those who were dead in Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:16). It now awaits a future day for it's fulfilment.

Question 2:- Is it related at all to this Scripture - Ephesians 5:14-17?
It is therefore not related to Ephesians 5:14-17.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

All doctrines of Christianity pivot and divide on these two concepts:
1. Man was given an eternal soul.
2. Man became a living soul.

Now, lets talk about how total victory over death was accomplished by God's judgment of Eternal Life, through faith in His Son. John 3:18 Romans 8:8-9
Stop.
We have been!

Hello @Earburner

This is not a serious request is it? You are merely making a point I think.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Earburner]

Hello @Earburner

This is not a serious request is it? You are merely making a point I think.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I could make a point about it, and have done so in the past, but the church is so extremely divided over it, the discussion never gets beyond the arguing, so that a formal and healthy discussion can be had.

So yes, it might be serious request, but rather it should be more of a truthful investigation, that all should get squared away with, at the beginning of their understanding in Christ.
Why?
As concerning all topical discussions, "There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner.

As a result, if one doesn't have the
"beginning" understood, how in God's Name shall all the rest of His words be understood?

So, in this case, we can know for certainty, that of the two concepts, one is extremely correct, while the other is extremely in error.
Hence, my reasoning in a recent past post, using the analogy of "A circle, in which all are instructed to find "North", from its perfect center" .

 

[BOWnQUIVER]

I have begun a study on resurrection, and began with reading through 1 Corinthians 15, a wonderful chapter on that subject.

The verses above show clearly that it is at the moment of our resurrection from the dead that death for us will be swallowed up in victory. Not at the moment of our death, but at our resurrection from the dead, which is yet to come.

Do you have any comment.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

Death is swallowed up in victory at the 1Cor15 event

ISAIAH’S “IN THAT DAY”

ISAIAH 25 [8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will WIPE AWAY TEARS from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

IN THAT DAY= Death is swallowed up in victory. Just as you find in the 1Cor.15 event

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. [13] And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

IN THAT DAY= Last trumpet {1Cor.15} will be blown and Gods people gathered {in the twinkling of an eye}

ISAIAH 2 [11] The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted IN THAT DAY. [12] For THE DAY OF THE LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

IN THAT DAY= The Day of the Lord

The Day of the Lord and the so called rapture event take place at the same time. “IN THAT DAY”

 

[Earburner]

1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

Death is swallowed up in victory at the 1Cor15 event

ISAIAH’S “IN THAT DAY”

ISAIAH 25 [8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will WIPE AWAY TEARS from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

IN THAT DAY= Death is swallowed up in victory. Just as you find in the 1Cor.15 event

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. [13] And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

IN THAT DAY= Last trumpet {1Cor.15} will be blown and Gods people gathered {in the twinkling of an eye}

ISAIAH 2 [11] The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted IN THAT DAY. [12] For THE DAY OF THE LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

IN THAT DAY= The Day of the Lord

The Day of the Lord and the so called rapture event take place at the same time. “IN THAT DAY”

So also in "that Day", does destruction take place simultaneosly!

But it appears that you are led astray and locked up with the foul doctrine of
"peace and safety", of which both the world and the churches are trumpeting.
1 Thessalonians 5:3

 

[BOWnQUIVER]

So also in "that Day", does destruction take place simultaneosly!

Yeah. Thats what happens "in that day". Its the "Day of the Lord". The day of His wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (KJV)
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

[Nancy]

Hello @Earburner,

Thank you for replying, I see that you are responding to my second question (reply#611):- 'Regarding the gift of eternal life though: it is ours by promise (1 John 2:25, 1 John 5:11-12); it does not become ours, 'in fact,' until the resurrection, does it?'

* You refer to John 11:26:-

'Jesus saith unto her, "Thy brother shall rise again."
Martha saith unto Him, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life:

he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.
Believest thou this?" ​

She saith unto Him, "Yea, Lord: I believe that Thou art the Christ, the Son of God,

which should come into the world." ​

(John 11:23-27)

* In these words of the Lord, He speaks of those who, 'though they are dead, saying 'yet shall he live', and that 'those who are alive and believeth in Him', 'shall never die'. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, we see that when Christ returns, He, Who is 'The Resurrection, and The Life', will raise those who 'sleep in Jesus' (the believing dead) first: and then those who 'are alive and remain' will be raised to meet those who have been raised to life, without themselves dying, ie., they 'shall never die'

* Martha knew about the resurrection which would take place at the last day: but this was something new; and must have sounded marvellous to her ears. The possibility of that occurring within Martha's lifetime was real: for that is what the believers to whom Paul wrote his early epistles to also looked for in anticipation. However it required the repentance of Israel for Christ to return (Acts 3:19-21) at that time: and so it awaits a yet future day for it's fulfilment.

* This is the resurrection I believe the Lord was referring to: which explains perfectly what He meant when speaking of those that are alive at His coming; when He said that they, 'shall never die'.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,
What you wrote here makes me think of 1 Corinthians 15:23 where Paul speaks of "But every man in his own order"
This verse makes me think about whether or not our dearly deceased and saved loved ones are now living in eternity or still "...in the grave know nothing."?? And then we have,"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord..."

"* This is the resurrection I believe the Lord was referring to: which explains perfectly what He meant when speaking of those that are alive at His coming; when He said that they, 'shall never die'."

Yes, not physically or spiritually die. Do you wonder if you and I will still be here when He comes into His Kingdom on earth? Some believe He already has but...I sure don't see that! IRl (Bbyrd speak ) it has not happened yet but it has already happened...such an enigma!

God bless you sister

 

[farouk]

Great chapter: 1 Corinthians 15; and verse 57 speaks of the victory!

 

[Earburner]

Yeah. Thats what happens "in that day". Its the "Day of the Lord". The day of His wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (KJV)
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Yes! The so called " Rapture" is the 2nd coming of the Lord in all His Glory, in flaming firem
In your quote of 1 Thes. 5:2-3, notice the words "they shall NOT escape".
That means that there will be NO escapees to re-populate the planet!

 

[Earburner]

^ edit: fire

 

[charity]

Hi Chris,
What you wrote here makes me think of 1 Corinthians 15:23 where Paul speaks of "But every man in his own order"
This verse makes me think about whether or not our dearly deceased and saved loved ones are now living in eternity or still "...in the grave know nothing."?? And then we have,"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord..."

"* This is the resurrection I believe the Lord was referring to: which explains perfectly what He meant when speaking of those that are alive at His coming; when He said that they, 'shall never die'."

Yes, not physically or spiritually die. Do you wonder if you and I will still be here when He comes into His Kingdom on earth? Some believe He already has but...I sure don't see that! IRl (Bbyrd speak ) it has not happened yet but it has already happened...such an enigma!

God bless you sister

'But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's
at His coming.'
(1 Corinthians 15:23)

Hi @Nancy,

I think the words 'at His coming' settles the matter doesn't it? For that tells us when those who belong to Christ are raised to life again: without any doubt. In regard to your reference to 1 Corinthians 5:8, lets take a look at the context in which it comes:-

'For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
.. we have a building of God,
.... an house not made with hands,
...... eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan,
.. earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
.... If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
.. not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
.... that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
.. Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that,
.. whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
.... (For we walk by faith, not by sight )
...... We are confident, I say,
........ and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.
.. For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ;
.... that every one may receive the things done in his body,
...... according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.'
(2 Corinthians 5:1-10)

* Paul speaks of our earthly body as a building, a tabernacle that we are clothed with. He tells us that we have a Body which is of God, which is eternal, and in the heavens. Paul desires to be clothed upon by that heavenly body. He does not want to be found naked, or unclothed (ie., in death). No, he wants mortality to be swallowed up by life. For he knows that this is what God has called us for, having secured this for us by giving us His Holy Spirit.

* While Paul remains in his earthly body he is absent from the Lord, and is willing to be absent from his earthly body in order to be present with the Lord, but that requires a change from mortality to immortality, from corruption to incorruption, which can only take place at the resurrection: when the Lord whose presence he so longs for, will be present, and Paul's earthly body will be changed like unto his Lord's glorious body.

* You see, it is not a matter of 'dying' and being present with the Lord, but of being changed into His likeness by being clothed upon by life, eternal life, at the appearing of the Lord. Thus bypassing death (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:35-49). This is a difficult concept, and is made harder by those who use it to suggest that at death we are present with the Lord.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Nancy]

'But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's
at His coming.'
(1 Corinthians 15:23)

Hi @Nancy,

I think the words 'at His coming' settles the matter doesn't it, for that tells us when those who belong to Christ are raised to life again: without any doubt. In regard to your reference to 1 Corinthians 5:8, lets take a look at the context in which it comes:-

'For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
.. we have a building of God,
.... an house not made with hands,
...... eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan,
.. earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
.... If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
.. not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
.... that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
.. Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that,
.. whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
.... (For we walk by faith, not by sight )
...... We are confident, I say,
........ and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.
.. For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ;
.... that every one may receive the things done in his body,
...... according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.'
(2 Corinthians 5:1-10)

* Paul speaks of our earthly body as a building, a tabernacle that we are clothed with. He tells us that we have a Body which is of God, which is eternal, and in the heavens. Paul desires to be clothed upon by that heavenly body. He does not want to be found naked, or unclothed (ie., in death). No, he wants mortality to be swallowed up by life. For he knows that this is what God has called us for, having secured this for us by giving us His Holy Spirit.

* While Paul remains in his earthly body he is absent from the Lord, and is willing to absent from his earthly body in order to be present with the Lord, but that requires a change from mortality to immortality, from corruption to incorruption, which can only take place at the resurrection: when the Lord whose presence he so longs for, will be present, and Paul's earthly body will be changed like unto his Lord's glorious body.

* You see, it is not a matter of 'dying' and being present with the Lord, but of being changed into His likeness by being clothed upon by life, eternal life, at the appearing of the Lord. Thus bypassing death (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:35-49). This is a difficult concept, and is made harder by those who use it to suggest that at death we are present with the Lord.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Okay, and yes it does settle the matter, thank you You explained it well. I need to pay much better attention to the wherefores, therefores and now's...I read too fast and if it is one thing we don't want to read fast...it's His Word
Thanks again Chris,
In Him,
Nancy

 

[Earburner]

* While Paul remains in his earthly body he is absent from the Lord, and is willing to absent from his earthly body in order to be present with the Lord, but that requires a change from mortality to immortality, from corruption to incorruption, which can only take place at the resurrection: when the Lord whose presence he so longs for, will be present, and Paul's earthly body will be changed like unto his Lord's glorious body.

* You see, it is not a matter of 'dying' and being present with the Lord, but of being changed into His likeness by being clothed upon by life, eternal life, at the appearing of the Lord. Thus bypassing death (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:35-49). This is a difficult concept, and is made harder by those who use it to suggest that at death we are present with the Lord.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,
Yes, I agree, it is a difficult process to comprehend, mainly because our finite minds do not know what to expect in our literal death of the flesh of our bodies.
However, the Lord said this in John 11[26] And whosoever liveth AND believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

So here again, as I had previously posted, is the age old dilemma of our thinking:
"All doctrines of Christianity pivot and divide on these two concepts:
1. Man was given an eternal soul.
2. Man became a living soul."

So, let me whet eveyone's interest with the following quote and references:
KJV- Gen. 7[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
See also Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 6:17.

So then, the challenge is:
Which school of thought are you?
Is it item #1 or item #2?

Lets discuss, and prove out that which is the only truth that can be known, and learn HOW it is that we "shall never die".

 

[Joseph77]

Yes, I agree, it is a difficult process to comprehend, mainly because our finite minds do not know what to expect in our literal death of the flesh of our bodies.
However, the Lord said this in John 11[26] And whosoever liveth AND believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

AMEN!

 

[Joseph77]

"All doctrines of Christianity

.... to be clarified later , maybe,.... if God Permits...
I believe most doctrines (today, present, preached about, posted about) originate from demons or men, and are not of God nor from Scripture true and pure. Likewise they are associated with many other practices, dogmas, teachings, and false ideas.

However, if "doctrines of Christianity" is to refer to ONLY the true doctrines as God Originated, perfectly in total harmony with all Scripture,
GOOD,
although I'm not seeing that they "pivot" on (1) and (2) you listed.