Christian Fiction, Sci fi,make believe...

[amadeus]

@Anthony D'Arienzo

Amadeus said:
I am somewhat familiar from what I have seen and read on this forum. You are the only reasonably good example I have encountered on this forum, one who is at least willing to talk... if not bend... without calling names like too many here too. I really don't expect you to bend because I say so

.

Anthony said:
Calling names does not edify, but is a manifestation of un mortified flesh.
I ENCOURAGE YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE TO MOVE FORWARD AND SERVE THE LORD AS BEST AS YOU CAN, UNTIL YOU KNOW BETTER.

Give God the glory!

Amadeus said:
I have numerous other things taking up my time with regard to the things of God as well as in the secular and I don't even work for a living any more. However, I saved access to the site to look over at a later date. God willing i will find the time to review it. Thank you for being reasonable and kind to someone who disagrees even in part.

Anthony said:
Proverbs 27:17
King James Version
17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
www.sermonaudio.com.
I listen and email the Pastors when I have questions.

Thanks for the link, but while I may listen, whether or not I ask questions will depend on what I hear. I am hoping God sends someone who is willing to be sharpened as I sharpen in the flesh. I had one such who died about 4 months ago. There is now only one left with whom I meet like that, my widowed old pastor, with whom I meet now once weekly for an hour or two to talk about God and the scriptures. There are likely others around who would be willing to share coffee and cross swords, but I don't know them. If this virus thing would settle perhaps I could meet such persons, but settling doesn't seem to be in the immediate future. Masks which were long recommended have since this past Saturday become mandatory in the city limits. Public restaurants and coffee shops are out for the moment. I would not worry about me... but wife is too susceptible.

Being an old fashioned old man with a very vulnerable spouse with a severely compromised immune system, I cannot even look any more. I have never attended 'online' as a place of fellowship and worship with others. I don't think I can do that. But, I am not in charge. God is. I am striving to follow as He leads.

Hopefully you slept better than I usually do...LOL

Anthony said:
We are both entering that portion of life Solomon spoke of;Eccl12
12 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;

2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:

3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,

4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;

5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.

10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.

11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Thank you!

Amadeus said:
Well as I at least inferred on another post to you, your criteria in this whole search thing is different than mine. While I will, as I indicated, eventually visit the site you mentioned, we both know it is unlikely that I will change much... even though I do try to be open in how I look at things, not pre-judging a matter. It is hard at times, because as I have said, others on this forum apparently from same kind of place in the Lord as you have pushed me away with their attitudes. I work not to ever have such an attitude but I also am a fallible human...
Change come from the Spirit of God.
The link I offered is a good tool and was offered to show that the historic orthodox view is cessationism. Most who are critical and in attack mode, have not even considered the millions who have believed and taught these truths. They do not know what they do not know

Again I expect that I will listen to or read their words, and I hope to learn something from it that will add to what God has given me, as I do when I spend my early morning time with Him and the scripture. I do something that no physical
man taught me although I doubt that I am alone in it for I encountered it in what is written here:

"And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them,
When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:7-11

I know I have explained what I learned from it on this forum before but you may not have read it. I wonder if what you see in the parable is what I see.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

amadeus,

What people do or do not understand as heaven or heavens is the problem. Some will say that the three heavens are a physical thing divided similar to the way science might divide the atmosphere of planet Earth between, Ionosphere, Troposphere, Stratosphere, and perhaps include also in outer space where effectively there is no air.
I've seen such a definition provided by others on Christian forums. But what does God say to us? Perhaps that... but is there no more?

One of the go to passages on this is 2 cor12;
12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

What if the three levels of the Ark built by Noah are types or shadows for us of the three heavens of God's reality? And what if the three parts [1) Outer court, 2) Holy Place, 3) Holies of Holies] of the tabernacle in the wilderness built to God's specifications are also as types and shadows of the three heaven's of God's reality?

AW. Pink offers speculation on this in his book gleanings from Genesis.
https://www.holybibleinstitute.com/files/Pink_-_Gleanings_in_Genesis_Commentary.pdf

8. The ark had three stories in it, "with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it" (Gen. 6:16). Why are we told this? What difference does it make to God’s saints living four thousand years afterwards http://www.biblecentre.net/comment/ot/pink/gen/genesis_13.htm (2 of 4) [03/08/2003 08:21:48 a.m.] 13. The Typology of the Ark. how many stories the ark had, whether it had one or a dozen? Every devout student of the Word has learned that everything in the Holy Scriptures has some significance and spiritual value. Necessarily so, for every word of God is pure. When the Holy Spirit "moved" Moses to write the book of Genesis, He knew that a book was being written which should be read by the Lord’s people thousands of years later, therefore, what He caused to be written must have in every instance, something more than a merely local application. "Whatsoever was written aforetime was written for our learning." What then are we to "learn" from the fact that in the ark there were three stories, no less and no more? We have already seen that the ark itself unmistakably foreshadowed the Lord Jesus. Passing through the waters of judgment, being itself submerged by them; grounding on the seventeenth day of the month—as we shall see, the day of our Lord’s Resurrection; and affording a shelter to all who were within it, the ark was a very clear type of Christ. Therefore the inside of the ark must speak to us of what we have in Christ. Is it not clear then that the ark divided into three stories more than hints at our threefold salvation in Christ? The salvation which we have in Christ is a threefold one, and that in a double sense. It is a salvation which embraces each part of our threefold constitution, making provision for the redemption of our spirit, and soul, and body (1 Thess. 5:23); and further, our salvation is a three tense salvation—we have been saved from the penalty of sin, are being saved from the power of sin, we shall yet be saved from the presence of sin

You don't see or understand that? Consider this verse about Jesus:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:12-13

You have the backing the orthodox churches? You don't mean the Catholic Church? Why not? Has it not been here longer that any other physically visible church group?

I was raised in the Roman Catholic church, but when God saved me, I was out of there. I have spoken with many Roman Catholics and priests since God saved me,
It is a false works-based gospel, and must be rejected.
Most RC"s do not know the teaching of their own church, so I hope that God will save many of them despite the false teaching of that group.

As for me having gone to heaven and returned: When I was first "saved", I repented I was at least in 1st heaven but perhaps even 2nd heaven [2nd heaven being where the Holy Ghost could work on killing the beasts that want to sin still]. When I went home not praying without ceasing or rejoicing in the Lord always, probably I remained in 1st heaven until and if I yielded to those old man desires that when followed lead right back to sin [...the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life... as per I John 2:16]... Then following the lead of those beasts, it is away from the the outer court of 1st heaven out into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Not sure what you are suggesting here?
In what way are you suggesting this"As for me having gone to heaven and returned"?

In and out I have gone [who has bypassed this in and out thing?] with longer more frequent periods spent in 2nd heaven [still a beast, but being cleaned more completely as I don't yield or yield less to those lustful and prideful ways] Hopefully, the end result is to kill every single attracting beast. Once having killed those beasts completely then there would be nothing to prevent entrance into the Holiest of Holies, 3rd heaven, where there is not beast nature at all.

Are you trying to describe the Christian life in an ALLEGORICAL FASHION?

You don't like or believe my scenario of God's heavens? Then you explain all of the verses I quoted or alluded to in connection with what you do believe?

We have a heavenly citizenship.phil3:
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Godly persons do this;
col3:
3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Amen! The problem the way I see it that one one side the WOF takes it to far and makes Christianity look real bad with all the shysters and so you have the Calvinist throw out the baby with the bad water coming up with bad theology. There has to be a middle ground instead of either extreme

Or, The 1century church had these gifts being manifested while the Apostles were alive, long enough to establish the scriptures and Nt. churches.
All these other false ministries are taking advantage of the biblical ignorance that exists and create or make-believe all of these supernatural events are a non-stop happening.

 

[amadeus]

@Anthony D'Arienzo

Amadeus asked:
What happens if a person quenches the Spirit instead of letting the Spirit work?[

Anthony answered:
The Holy Spirit is grieved, and perhaps edification is delayed by the disobedient believer. God will most likely chasten that disobedient believer.Heb12;

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Good verses and response. I won't answer further as I am tired and have more to accomplish yet today. May God richly bless you as you walk with Him!

 

[amadeus]

amadeus,


One of the go to passages on this is 2 cor12;
12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.




AW. Pink offers speculation on this in his book gleanings from Genesis.
https://www.holybibleinstitute.com/files/Pink_-_Gleanings_in_Genesis_Commentary.pdf

8. The ark had three stories in it, "with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it" (Gen. 6:16). Why are we told this? What difference does it make to God’s saints living four thousand years afterwards http://www.biblecentre.net/comment/ot/pink/gen/genesis_13.htm (2 of 4) [03/08/2003 08:21:48 a.m.] 13. The Typology of the Ark. how many stories the ark had, whether it had one or a dozen? Every devout student of the Word has learned that everything in the Holy Scriptures has some significance and spiritual value. Necessarily so, for every word of God is pure. When the Holy Spirit "moved" Moses to write the book of Genesis, He knew that a book was being written which should be read by the Lord’s people thousands of years later, therefore, what He caused to be written must have in every instance, something more than a merely local application. "Whatsoever was written aforetime was written for our learning." What then are we to "learn" from the fact that in the ark there were three stories, no less and no more? We have already seen that the ark itself unmistakably foreshadowed the Lord Jesus. Passing through the waters of judgment, being itself submerged by them; grounding on the seventeenth day of the month—as we shall see, the day of our Lord’s Resurrection; and affording a shelter to all who were within it, the ark was a very clear type of Christ. Therefore the inside of the ark must speak to us of what we have in Christ. Is it not clear then that the ark divided into three stories more than hints at our threefold salvation in Christ? The salvation which we have in Christ is a threefold one, and that in a double sense. It is a salvation which embraces each part of our threefold constitution, making provision for the redemption of our spirit, and soul, and body (1 Thess. 5:23); and further, our salvation is a three tense salvation—we have been saved from the penalty of sin, are being saved from the power of sin, we shall yet be saved from the presence of sin

You don't see or understand that? Consider this verse about Jesus:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:12-13


I was raised in the Roman Catholic church, but when God saved me, I was out of there. I have spoken with many Roman Catholics and priests since God saved me,
It is a false works-based gospel, and must be rejected.
Most RC"s do not know the teaching of their own church, so I hope that God will save many of them despite the false teaching of that group.



Not sure what you are suggesting here?
In what way are you suggesting this"As for me having gone to heaven and returned"?


Are you trying to describe the Christian life in an ALLEGORICAL FASHION?


We have a heavenly citizenship.phil3:
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Godly persons do this;
col3:
3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

If you don't understand what I was saying that is OK. I won't go into it further. I believe this is where God has led me. I did appreciate the excerpt from AW Pink. That title caught my attention. Checking I see where a number of years ago I obtained portions of a book by him entitled "Gleanings from Exodus". I copied those portions to my computer in 2009, but have no real recollection of the circumstances or the content. I will have read some of it see if any of the details bring anything back to me. My memory on a few things is sharp, but on others I am useless. God help me!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Found this today as it addressed a recently viewed video; Pastor Josh Buice
Why You Should Reject the Message of Dana Coverstone

Anytime we have someone claiming to hear messages directly from God, it should cause us to be very skeptical. Consider the words of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. In chapter 1 and paragraph 6 we find these words:

The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men.

Although we have a sufficient guide to life and worship in the pages of Scripture, it’s a common thing to hear people claiming to talk with God on their back porch or to have revelatory and prophetic dreams where God audibly talks directly with them.

In fact, sadly is the case that evangelicals have birthed a new genre of literature in recent years known as “Heavenly Tourism” whereby people claim to have traveled to heaven for a brief encounter only to return after a near death experience to write down their story in a book. These books sell like hotcakes and eventually become movies. The success of these heavenly tourism books points to a deeper issue within evangelicalism. It reveals a lack of confidence in the sufficiency of Scripture. Is God’s Word not enough for us?

 

[Giuliano]

Anytime we have someone claiming to hear messages directly from God, it should cause us to be very skeptical. Consider the words of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. In chapter 1 and paragraph 6 we find these words:

The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men.

Who said so? The men who wrote the London Baptist Confession of Faith? By what authority did they compose that tradition? What Scriptures say that? How odd for them to invent their own tradition and then say nothing should be added by way of new revelation or traditions.

It also contradicts the Bible:

Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

That was true in the time of Moses before most of the Bible was written. It was still true when Jesus quoted it before any of the New Testament was written.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Not by "every word written in your Bible" but by "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

And God said, "Let there be light." Hmmm. For some, there was still no light.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Who said so? The men who wrote the London Baptist Confession of Faith? By what authority did they compose that tradition? What Scriptures say that? How odd for them to invent their own tradition and then say nothing should be added by way of new revelation or traditions.

It also contradicts the Bible:

Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

That was true in the time of Moses before most of the Bible was written. It was still true when Jesus quoted it before any of the New Testament was written.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Not by "every word written in your Bible" but by "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

And God said, "Let there be light." Hmmm. For some, there was still no light.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

When you read any of the confessions of faith,They give a list of verses that the derived the teaching from.
Every Confession that is biblical puts scripture first.

 

[Giuliano]

When you read any of the confessions of faith,They give a list of verses that the derived the teaching from.
Every Confession that is biblical puts scripture first.

Well, I never read anything like that in my Bible. Maybe they thought they did, but I can't remember reading it. My Bible says man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God -- and that was true in Moses' day. It does not say man shall live by reading every word in the Bible.

 

[Nancy]

Amen! The problem the way I see it that one one side the WOF takes it to far and makes Christianity look real bad with all the shysters and so you have the Calvinist throw out the baby with the bad water coming up with bad theology. There has to be a middle ground instead of either extreme

Seems us moderates get drown out by both of the extremes

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Well, I never read anything like that in my Bible. Maybe they thought they did, but I can't remember reading it. My Bible says man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God -- and that was true in Moses' day. It does not say man shall live by reading every word in the Bible.

2tim 3:16-17
Says all scripture is God breathed. It is the word of God...written.
How do you not know this???

 

[Josho]

2tim 3:16-17
Says all scripture is God breathed. It is the word of God...written.
How do you not know this???

Not all people's interpretations of scripture though.

 

[Josho]

@Anthony D'Arienzo I don't think there is one human on this earth today who has a total perfect understanding of scripture.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Not all people's interpretations of scripture though.

What the scripture is, and how it is interpreted are two different issues.
Scripture in its original autograph is the word of God written.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

No one said there is,in fact

@Anthony D'Arienzo I don't think there is one human on this earth today who has a total perfect understanding of scripture.

God has not designed that way.

 

[Giuliano]

2tim 3:16-17
Says all scripture is God breathed. It is the word of God...written.
How do you not know this???

Yes, God's Spirit is what breathed it when God spoke to the prophets. Your Bible doesn't breath. Bibles don't appear when God breaths.

 

[historyb]

Or, The 1century church had these gifts being manifested while the Apostles were alive, long enough to establish the scriptures and Nt. churches.
All these other false ministries are taking advantage of the biblical ignorance that exists and create or make-believe all of these supernatural events are a non-stop happening.

The gifts never disappeared. What did wane was faith and I do believe those false ministries are just doing what all protestant evangelicals do which is sola scriptura, maybe if they stopped relying on themselves using their own minds and saying "we use sola scriptura" things would not be so bad. Though they probably be good at selling used cars

 

[historyb]

Seems us moderates get drown out by both of the extremes

True. My problem is I can become extreme easyily and I am trying to work on not doing that. Gives me a good idea for a thread, thank you

 

[Josho]

@Anthony D'Arienzo

The fact miracles, signs, wonders, gifts from God are still for today should be very obvious. God did not stop working after Apostle John died. God has always been working through believers.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

@Anthony D'Arienzo

The fact miracles, signs, wonders, gifts from God are still for today should be very obvious. God did not stop working after Apostle John died. God has always been working through believers.

The problem with your statement is that is not the testimony of scripture or history.
I gave a few references yesterday from Acts.4:33 5:12,14:3.....
Thousands of Christians are saved....it says God granted signs and wonders to be done by the Apostles...
If all believers can do the same as them ,there would be no need to make any distinction., but scripture does make a distinction.
It does not say anywhere that thousands of Christians were doing signs and wonders.
Even the signs of the Apostles were waining back then
2tim.4:20....Trophimus I left in Miletus,Sick..