Grace vs Legalism

[CharismaticLady]

I'm with you in principle, but isn't this kind of a sweeping generalization? I've heard this from many good teachers and preachers who didn't believe in cheap grace. After all, even if we never ever sinned after conversion, isn't the grace at work in covering our pre-conversion sin(s) something to shout and sing about? :)

A sweeping generalization? No, it is actually scriptural and was the gospel that was understood in the first century and for a while beyond. But since the Roman and Bizantine Churches began around Constantine, many of the doctrines of the apostles slipped away, but then got completely perverted during the Reformation. It is this 500 years of perversion regarding grace that changed grace from the 1st century definition of the divine power of Jesus to take away sin, 2 Peter 1:2-11 and perverted it to the blood of Jesus covers our sin with unmerited favor while we keep sinning. No power, no righteousness, no holiness. Hebrews 12:14. They believe we will have the sin nature as long as the body is alive, probably because that was what most experienced. But that is a failure to understand the power that the God of the Universe indwelling us can achieve. He is the Creator. And He can create in us a NEW NATURE. So few understood that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is more than a theological doctrine of position, or that it is of the Church and not just the Pentecostal denomination. It is real, and all desire to sin is gone, and few there are that find it. The truth is no longer "Orthodox." The error has become the norm, and even "good" pastors believe what they were taught for centuries. I've even heard a Pentecostal preacher teach the error, it is that wide-spread! That is because Pentecostals only recognize speaking in tongues as the evidence of being baptized in the Spirit, and not the power of the rebirth. It is like the Church has been brain-washed. It is the "falling away" that was prophesied would happen before the Antichrist is revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. And then the return of our Savior and Lord.

This is why I call myself Charismatic or Spirit-filled, as they are not the names of a denomination, anymore than Christian is. But Christian is too wide an umbrella. Charismatic implies the inner residing of the power of God and His gifts.

 

[mjrhealth]

Don't worry, he can't hurt me. Just feel sorry for him and his lack of understanding, and hopefully, he will read a post that will touch him. He constantly uses Romans 4 (a chapter in the middle of Paul's eight chapter teaching on sin and the Law) but doesn't understand the conclusion.

Romans 4: (This is talking about the blood of bulls and goats under the Law).
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Hebrews 9:
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 10:
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Behold believes grace is merely a covering like under the Law, and has no idea of the power of Jesus that He gives to those who come to Him to take away even the desire to sin so that they no longer sin. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death.

Behold - freedom to sin.
Jesus - freedom from sin.

• Any teacher that uses the term "covered" regarding grace believes a false doctrine. They deny the true power of Jesus to take away sin. 1 John 3:5

Both @Behold and @mjrhealth uses this term - "covered."

So you are saying grace doenst do any thing. Grace wasnt cheap our Lord was beaten and put on a cross for it, remember the prodigal son, did His dad beat Him up for doing wrong, no He ran to Him and loved Him anyway.

I would love to see the perfect person like you Im sure God would too.

 

[CharismaticLady]

They are no longer sinners because of Grace, it is grace that covers one sins. Grace doesnt end when one comes to Christ it has only just started. When you stand before Him you will find the only reason why you are there is Grace.And the only reason why He sees no sin is because He has cast them as far as the east is from the west. You may have come out of religion but you stll have religion in you. Grace is by faith that none can boast.

"Covers" was the blood of bulls and goats. Jesus "Takes Away" our whole desire to sin, so that we can stand before Him as His SPOTLESS BRIDE.

Curious, did you read my whole post. You uncovered your doctrine as false.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So you are saying grace doenst do any thing. Grace wasnt cheap our Lord was beaten and put on a cross for it, remember the prodigal son, did His dad beat Him up for doing wrong, no He ran to Him and loved Him anyway.

I would love to see the perfect person like you Im sure God would too.

I didn't say grace doesn't do anything - you did. You deny its POWER. Do you have the power to not sin, or does your definition of grace, allow you to keep sinning, but it is not imputed to you?

 

[CharismaticLady]

So you are saying grace doenst do any thing. Grace wasnt cheap our Lord was beaten and put on a cross for it, remember the prodigal son, did His dad beat Him up for doing wrong, no He ran to Him and loved Him anyway.

I would love to see the perfect person like you Im sure God would too.

I want you to grow into perfection, and that you should never again stumble. 2 Peter 1:2-11

 

[mjrhealth]

I want you to grow into perfection, and that you should never again stumble. 2 Peter 1:2-11

That day will come for all those who are His,

In teh twinkling of an eye we will all be changed.

But no one is perfect while in this flesh.

 

[mjrhealth]

I didn't say grace doesn't do anything - you did. You deny its POWER. Do you have the power to not sin, or does your definition of grace, allow you to keep sinning, but it is not imputed to you?

I am saved, done deal, its Gods good pleasure to save those who believe His son. Do we have the power to not sin, maybe so, but I have never yet met any one who doesnt get angry with His brother. You must live in a very sheltered world.

I have no righteousness of my own, its all His,

 

[mjrhealth]

"Covers" was the blood of bulls and goats. Jesus "Takes Away" our whole desire to sin, so that we can stand before Him as His SPOTLESS BRIDE.

Curious, did you read my whole post. You uncovered your doctrine as false.

We stand before Him, God, spotless because of the righteousness of Christ not because of what you do or dont do. We are al naked before God, nothing hidden,

 

[BarneyFife]

A sweeping generalization? No, it is actually scriptural and was the gospel that was understood in the first century and for a while beyond. But since the Roman and Bizantine Churches began around Constantine, many of the doctrines of the apostles slipped away, but then got completely perverted during the Reformation. It is this 500 years of perversion regarding grace that changed grace from the 1st century definition of the divine power of Jesus to take away sin, 2 Peter 1:2-11 and perverted it to the blood of Jesus covers our sin with unmerited favor while we keep sinning. No power, no righteousness, no holiness. Hebrews 12:14. They believe we will have the sin nature as long as the body is alive, probably because that was what most experienced. But that is a failure to understand the power that the God of the Universe indwelling us can achieve. He is the Creator. And He can create in us a NEW NATURE. So few understood that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is more than a theological doctrine of position, or that it is of the Church and not just the Pentecostal denomination. It is real, and all desire to sin is gone, and few there are that find it. The truth is no longer "Orthodox." The error has become the norm, and even "good" pastors believe what they were taught for centuries. I've even heard a Pentecostal preacher teach the error, it is that wide-spread! That is because Pentecostals only recognize speaking in tongues as the evidence of being baptized in the Spirit, and not the power of the rebirth. It is like the Church has been brain-washed. It is the "falling away" that was prophesied would happen before the Antichrist is revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. And then the return of our Savior and Lord.

This is why I call myself Charismatic or Spirit-filled, as they are not the names of a denomination, anymore than Christian is. But Christian is too wide an umbrella. Charismatic implies the inner residing of the power of God and His gifts.

Alrighty, then.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That day will come for all those who are His,

In teh twinkling of an eye we will all be changed.

But no one is perfect while in this flesh.

There you go with the that doctrine of heresy. You DO NOT BELIEVE never stumbling can happen to you while you are alive.

May I ask what denomination you are a part of?

 

[CharismaticLady]

I am saved, done deal, its Gods good pleasure to save those who believe His son. Do we have the power to not sin, maybe so, but I have never yet met any one who doesnt get angry with His brother. You must live in a very sheltered world.

I have no righteousness of my own, its all His,

Paul says to BE ANGRY, but sin not. Therefore getting angry is not a sin, anymore than Jesus sinned when He got angry and turned over the table of the money changers.

If you knew my past, you would know that I came from a very unsheltered world. But I have escaped.

 

[CharismaticLady]

We stand before Him, God, spotless because of the righteousness of Christ not because of what you do or dont do. We are al naked before God, nothing hidden,

How can your sins be "covered" and they not be hidden? I thought that is what you depended on.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Alrighty, then.

Hmmmm. Do I detect skepticism?

You even believe in "covered." See how popular this false doctrine is?

 

[marks]

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

If you believe the flesh is our body, what then does not in our body mean to you?

That answer wouldn't mean anything to you until you understand the way the Bible uses the terms, I think.

Not in flesh is shown oppositionally to sin the Spirit, that you are one or the other. Interestingly, either way, we are still here in this world.

Look at how this chapter uses "in the flesh" and "in the Spirit", the one refers to the unregenerate, the other to the regenerate. Once you've seen this, then we can move to the answer of what it means to be "in the flesh" and "in the Spirit".

That the flesh and the body are one and the same will be established when you look at all the uses.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Not in flesh is shown oppositionally to sin the Spirit, that you are one or the other. Interestingly, either way, we are still here in this world.

Not answering this post, just pointing out a comical typo. See if you can find it, friend. LOL

 

[CharismaticLady]

That answer wouldn't mean anything to you until you understand the way the Bible uses the terms, I think.

Not in flesh is shown oppositionally to sin the Spirit, that you are one or the other. Interestingly, either way, we are still here in this world.

Look at how this chapter uses "in the flesh" and "in the Spirit", the one refers to the unregenerate, the other to the regenerate. Once you've seen this, then we can move to the answer of what it means to be "in the flesh" and "in the Spirit".

That the flesh and the body are one and the same will be established when you look at all the uses.

Much love!

When you are born again which puts you in the Spirit, you can stay there. You are not in the old carnal nature any longer, but in the divine nature.

 

[justbyfaith]

Rom 4:1, What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2, For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3, For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4, Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

This passage teaches us that our sins are in fact covered and that the Lord will not impute sin to us as believers. The word "impute" means to credit to one's account. So it means that even though we sin, the Lord does not credit our sin to our account.

And, He justifieth the ungodly. Most assuredly here, He declares the ungodly person to be righteous; so that we have an identity in Christ even when we blow it: we are the righteousness of the Lord in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). Now that you have this unshakable identity, go and live like it...like you are righteous and nothing can take your righteousness away from you....not even if you sin. Go and live like you are truly, unshakably righteous....forgiven of past, present, and future sins.

Because whosoever is forgiven much, loves much (Luke 7:36-50). And this love will not be in word or in tongue only; but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18). It is also the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within you (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

The point being that if a man is forgiven unconditionally and freely, it will result in him living a life that is pleasing to the Lord.

Therefore let us preach the forgiveness of Christ...and the holiness of walk that we desire to see in the ones to whom we preach will follow.

 

[mjrhealth]

How can your sins be "covered" and they not be hidden? I thought that is what you depended on.

They are hidden, what is it you do not understand.

 

[mjrhealth]

There you go with the that doctrine of heresy. You DO NOT BELIEVE never stumbling can happen to you while you are alive.

May I ask what denomination you are a part of?

Why would I belong to a denomination, that is foolishness, and why is it Heresy to believe in Gods grace, and never stumbling, yes so many claim we have yet to see. Havnt being to church in over 15 years and never will step into one ever again. We follow Christ do we not...

 

[marks]

When you are born again which puts you in the Spirit, you can stay there. You are not in the old carnal nature any longer, but in the divine nature.

Scripture describes this as a process which Jesus begins, but spends our entire lives completing.

Measuring ourselves by lists of laws and sins is a mistake in my opinion. Our law is love, and our law is trust, and until we are perfected in love and trust, we're still a work in process. We still fall short of God's love.

Yes, we can stay in the spirit, believing. That's why I think that when we have a walk in Christ where we are continuously walking in the Spirit, day after day, that this is a gift of faith, which God may give as He pleases, and for whatever purpose He wants.

To one, He may give that faith to just get them out of this cycle, knowing that this is simply the best way. I think that in myself, He gave this gift, but only for a time, so that I could understand better, and trust Him more, especially through what would prove to be very difficult times.

We can stay in the Spirit, I think, be it to you according to your faith. It's insidious how the flesh get's it's voice in there! Irritation with others, impatience, posting with those little 'digs', snippy comments, these are from the flesh of course.

Another camouflage is anger, we say, be angry and sin not, and think, anger is OK. Another way to see that verse is, In your anger, do not sin. It also says, The anger of man does not work the righteousness of God. Is our becoming angry from the Holy Spirit? God is angry, but are we supposed to be angry? Maybe sometimes, but wonder just how much anger we're really supposed to feel. Is it righteous indignation, or did our toes feel stepped on?

But again, we should be focused on those lists of sin as we may need to for a starting point in understanding God's will. But there is so much more than that.

I really liked @bbyrd009 's analogy showing the difference between the Law and Love (I forget if that was his thinking, it works for me), keep the law by driving 20 in the school zone, but maybe come to a complete stop when a toddler is toddling around.

It's not about the speed you're driving, it's about whether or not you love that child.

God's desire for His children, is, I think, to be loving and caring and trusting people without exception, and all that is less is sin.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

They are hidden, what is it you do not understand.

You said it yourself. "We are al naked before God, nothing hidden"