What Keeps Us From Sinning In Heaven?

[Brakelite]

The chaff of each one of us is burned up in the fire. If all we have is chaff then we will be burned up completely. If on the other hand we have some wheat, then that part of us will remain. Any 'liar' part of us will definitely be gone, one way or the other.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt 3:11-12

The fire is God Himself. He is a consuming fire... that is, He consumes everything that is not "good". For that which is good and innocent His fire is a comforting fire like the warm fire in the hearth on a chilly winter's evening or the warmth of our mother's holding us close against the coldness all around us. Daniel 3 shows only the one fire that kills the soldiers who came too close but only burns up the ropes which secured the three Hebrews when they were thrown into the fire.

Gold tried in the fire...when does that take place? When is that gold purified? Now, here on earth, or on heaven? People go to great lengths denying the physical second coming saying God is already amongst us by His Spirit so the prophecy of His coming is fulfilled. For them then now would be the time of coming to perfection I suppose, but you don't hear them suggesting it. God is a consuming fire, and I agree that Christ in us, is the source, and the word the vehicle for the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He wrought in Christ when He raised Him from the dead...
which is related to your question as to why Satan (when presenting himself before the Lord in Job) wasn't destroyed. The only answer I can offer is that the Lord, in that instant (and in the case of Manoah and his wife and other examples, ) was in fact the Son acting as Mediator. The sanctuary in the wilderness showed this whole concept, the holy of holies protected by a series of curtains beyond which light couldn't penetrate. It was only by strict preparation and then only once a year could the high priest enter before the glory. Even then, he had to go through 'mediation'...every article of furniture from the altar, the offering, the priest himself, the door, bread, candle, incense, all representations of Jesus. And even with all that, Josephus tells us that the priests tied a rope to the HP ankle, and if they heard a long absence of tinkling of bells, they assumed he was dead and pulled him out. There is no record of that actually happening however. But I believe the concept is an important one. God totally wants to dwell with us, and when He warns that when we see His face, we die, He is serious. That does not mean that He kills us. It simply means sin cannot abide in His presence. So He protects us. Thus the need of a Mediator.

 

[Brakelite]

You made that up.

No, I didn't. It comes from the text itself. The reason it doesn't harmonize with your perspective is because you have applied a different chronological sequence to the whole subject based on your assumptions concerning the typical futurist belief in the excessive relevance of the nation of Israel in the last days. The middle east/Israel isn't the focus of scripture. It's Christ and His church.

 

[Enoch111]

The middle east/Israel isn't the focus of scripture. It's Christ and His church.

Actually this is not true. BOTH the Church and redeemed and restored Israel are the focus of Scripture. Those who have sought to replace Israel with the Church have ignored a major portion of the Bible.

 

[Tong2020]

No malice intended whatsoever. That is why I was careful to say "They often prove to be traps." So the suspiciousness is on you.

No suspiciousness on me BF. I only asked a simple question.

I do not agree with your answer to the OP, as my position is explained fairly thoroughly in some of my other posts.

Yes, we can agree or disagree. But may I know what in my answer do you disagree with? Was it with Romans 8:29 and 1 John 3:9?

Thank you for participating.

You too.

Tong
R1026

 

[Taken]

Gold tried in the fire...when does that take place? When is that gold purified? Now, here on earth, or on heaven?

Matt 3:
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Baptize- is the one with Authority to Administer A Baptism.

John Was Authorized (as foretold in Prophecy), to Baptize Individuals , WITH Water...
UNTO (which means UP to a point, then stops)
Remission- A Forgiveness
Sin- What is being Forgiven
Past and UPTO - Present Sin forgiven-
Forgiveness STOPS- if more Sin is Committed.
Water Baptism- (up to a point) -Temporary.

Inanutshell...
Forgiveness "For" SIN "and" TRESPASSES had their Origin in Mosaic Laws.
Pure Animal- Offered unto the LORD for a Sin Offering.
Pure Animal- Offered unto the LORD for a Trespass Offering.
Pure Animal - or Money to the Sancturary for Sin Offering or Trespass Offering.
Animal- Money Offering- (up to a point) -Temporary

GOOD NEWS!!
A "SURETY", surpassing of "Temporary" to "Permanent".

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Thank you Jesus!!

Matt 3:
[11]
he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
* "he" with the Authority is Christ Jesus.
* "you" is any individual receiving the Authorized Baptism OF and BY Christ Jesus
* "With" the Holy Ghost-/
...Spirit of God, Power of God, Light of God
...Seed of God, Wisdom of God

And with Fire!!!
Purified..."BY" the Lord Gods (Tempering) and TO the Lord Gods Acceptable (Refinement) And Forever Lasting....
KEPT purified...BY the Lord Gods Power.
The unpurified previous condition...
UNSEEN - REMEMBERED no more-
Having been OVERCOME BY the Lord Gods
LIGHT.

Wow- Paise The Lord God...
once, asurety, FOREVER!!!
What an Awesome Offering from the Lord God Almighty!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Waiting on him]

i wonder if "their part" is maybe being misunderstood? Not sure i get it myself tbh

John 8:44 KJV
[44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.




Revelation 21:8 KJV
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Tong2020]

There's a lot of statements in your post #467 to which I have an objection. Let me comment on some.

.... the atonement made testifies to every son and daughter of Adam the immutability of God's law. ....

What is God's law that you refer to there? Would that include the laws such as are those which God gave to Moses concerning the priesthood laws?

..... the penalty of man's transgression was borne by a divine Substitute.

The penalty of man's transgression is nothing short of death. If it was borne by Jesus Christ by substitution, are you by that saying, that all man will not be punished with death? Yet, the truth remains, that there are people who will be condemned to death and people who will not be condemned. So that would mean that the transgressions of those who will be condemned were not borne by Jesus by divine substitution, for if that were so, then they too will not be condemned.

The Father Himself suffered with the Son; for "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself."...

God, in the person of Jesus Christ, suffered death, in connection to His work of saving mankind.

Man, with his human, finite judgment, cannot safely question the wisdom of God....

Not only that we cannot SAFELY question, but that, we have no right to question God. Borrowing the words of Paul, "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”. Also, "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! “. And also, the Lord said "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,".

God grants men a probation in this world, that their principles may become firmly established in the right, thus precluding the possibility of sin in the future life, and so assuring the happiness and security of all....

That's not what I see scriptures is saying. Scriptures gives and is testimony to the will and purpose of God, concerning fallen mankind, that is, to save mankind (i.e. the creature kind called man) and not destroy it to extinction, which salvation He works and brings about, in accordance to His righteousness, justice, and wisdom, for His pleasure and glory. How the saved people will be a people who sin not is credited as the work of no other but God, who conform them to the image of Jesus Christ, and creates them anew by rebirth, and dwell in them.

The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy.....

We really know nothing about the angels, those who rebelled and those who did not. But we know that, there is no salvation of the angels who sinned. So, those things which you say there concerning the angels are merely guesswork.

Tong
R1027

 

[BarneyFife]

No suspiciousness on me BF. I only asked a simple question.


Yes, we can agree or disagree. But may I know what in my answer do you disagree with? Was it with Romans 8:29 and 1 John 3:9?

You too.

Tong
R1026

I don't see how mutability or immutability has anything to do with protection from a 2nd rebellion. As far as the 2 bible texts are concerned, Adam and Eve were explicitly made in the image of the Godhead, for Elohim, the Plural One said: "Let us make man in our image," and both were also without sin before their fall into temptation.

 

[BarneyFife]

What is God's law that you refer to there?

The two great commandments and, by extension, the ten.

The penalty of man's transgression is nothing short of death. If it was borne by Jesus Christ by substitution, are you by that saying, that all man will not be punished with death?

No, I am not. However, there is common grace and there is saving grace.

God, in the person of Jesus Christ, suffered death, in connection to His work of saving mankind.

I and my Father are one. (John 10:30)

Not only that we cannot SAFELY question, but that, we have no right to question God.

Although we, ultimately, have no right, for the time being we have been granted a contingent religious liberty to do so. Common grace.

That's not what I see scriptures is saying.

Men are judged (not saved) by their works. The proof of conversion is a changed life.
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Romans 2:13)
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)

We really know nothing about the angels, those who rebelled and those who did not. But we know that, there is no salvation of the angels who sinned. So, those things which you say there concerning the angels are merely guesswork.

Not all conclusions can be supported by proof texts. The testimony of Scripture as a whole suggests many such things. Have you no belief that cannot be proven by singular passages? (rhetorical question)

No point of view is without flaw but God's only.

 

[Tong2020]

I don't see how mutability or immutability has anything to do with protection from a 2nd rebellion. As far as the 2 bible texts are concerned, Adam and Eve were explicitly made in the image of the Godhead, for Elohim, the Plural One said: "Let us make man in our image," and both were also without sin before their fall into temptation.

One can't hear nor see what the immutability of God have to do with what Romans 8:29 and 1John 3:9 is saying in connection to the question that is at the title of this thread, if one don't pay attention to and don't realize what scriptures say about the person of Jesus Christ, his humanity in this regard.

With regards Romans 8:29 and 1John 3:9, while you remember that Adam and Eve were made in the image of God, you seem to forget that they have corrupted such image when they sinned. Thus, after their fall, no longer are they in the image of God, but are in the corrupted image of God. The very reason why there is need for God to predestine those saved to be conformed to the image of His Son, Jesus Christ, who is the image of God. Now, as I have said in my other post, while the two were created in the image of God, unlike those who are saved, Adam and Eve were not born of God. And also, unlike those who are being saved, Adam and Eve did not have God dwelling IN them.

Thus, being born of God and God's indwelling the saved, such as are not so with the unfallen Adam and Eve, apparently are that which will keep the saved from sinning in heaven.

Tong
R1028

 

[BarneyFife]

One can't hear nor see what the immutability of God have to do with what Romans 8:29 and 1John 3:9 is saying in connection to the question that is at the title of this thread, if one don't pay attention to and don't realize what scriptures say about the person of Jesus Christ, his humanity in this regard.

With regards Romans 8:29 and 1John 3:9, while you remember that Adam and Eve were made in the image of God, you seem to forget that they have corrupted such image when they sinned. Thus, after their fall, no longer are they in the image of God, but are in the corrupted image of God. The very reason why there is need for God to predestine those saved to be conformed to the image of His Son, Jesus Christ, who is the image of God. Now, as I have said in my other post, while the two were created in the image of God, unlike those who are saved, Adam and Eve were not born of God. And also, unlike those who are being saved, Adam and Eve did not have God dwelling IN them.

Thus, being born of God and God's indwelling the saved, such as are not so with the unfallen Adam and Eve, apparently are that which will keep the saved from sinning in heaven.

Tong
R1028

I've already addressed the main concerns you've raised here in other posts. After over 500 of them, I'm tired of repeating myself to hit-and-runners. And I will not discuss the various permutations of Calvinism under any circumstances within this thread. No offense intended. I can, however, repeat the concise view:

Any scenario that grants the redeemed a built-in advantage over the Edenic pair and even Lucifer himself indicates a fixed game, and is not of God. The blood of Christ is the eternal antidote of sin. He was slain from the foundation of the world and has thus kept the unfallen angels safe.

 

[Enoch111]

Any scenario that grants the redeemed a built-in advantage over the Edenic pair and even Lucifer himself indicates a fixed game, and is not of God.

This is TOTAL NONSENSE and you should have divested yourself of this rubbish by now.

The Edenic pair had absolutely no reason to disobey God, but they went ahead IN SPITE OF THE WARNING.

Lucifer had absolutely no reason to rebel against God, yet he went ahead IN SPITE OF BEING THE CHIEF ANGEL, and also dragged a third of the angels with him into perdition.

What you are doing here is simply blaspheming God. You are accusing God of being unfair because these miserable creatures disobeyed Him, even though they had absolutely no reasons for doing so. And I told you to be careful to not go off the rails. But you did.

 

[BarneyFife]

The Edenic pair had absolutely no reason to disobey God, but they went ahead IN SPITE OF THE WARNING.

Lucifer had absolutely no reason to rebel against God, yet he went ahead IN SPITE OF BEING THE CHIEF ANGEL, and also dragged a third of the angels with him into perdition.

Absolutely Agreed

What you are doing here is simply blaspheming God. You are accusing God of being unfair because these miserable creatures disobeyed Him, even though they had absolutely no reasons for doing so.

This is total nonsense. I have done no such thing. I have declared exactly the opposite: that He would never do such a thing. Furthermore, there was nothing miserable about Lucifer or Adam and Eve before they sinned (which originates in the heart, not the words or deeds). It is you who suggests that God created misery!!!

And I told you to be careful to not go off the rails. But you did.

Your pontifical ravings are misguided and misplaced. Thank you for participating.

 

[amadeus]

Gold tried in the fire...when does that take place? When is that gold purified? Now, here on earth, or on heaven? People go to great lengths denying the physical second coming saying God is already amongst us by His Spirit so the prophecy of His coming is fulfilled. For them then now would be the time of coming to perfection I suppose, but you don't hear them suggesting it. God is a consuming fire, and I agree that Christ in us, is the source, and the word the vehicle for the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He wrought in Christ when He raised Him from the dead...

Without getting into any details of a 2nd coming, consider that we are the gold in need of purifying or cleansing. Perhaps the born again [from above] baby still covered with fluids as it exited the mother needed to be cleansed. We can simply wash the new born natural child with warm water. The removal of dross from natural gold is accomplished by heat, by fire that is.

which is related to your question as to why Satan (when presenting himself before the Lord in Job) wasn't destroyed. The only answer I can offer is that the Lord, in that instant (and in the case of Manoah and his wife and other examples, ) was in fact the Son acting as Mediator.

Or... if that man, that 'old' man, that 'corrupted' man, were Satan, he did die, to God he died and the connection was severed. God is good and Satan is anything but "good". I won't get into that question deeper than that here...

The sanctuary in the wilderness showed this whole concept, the holy of holies protected by a series of curtains beyond which light couldn't penetrate. It was only by strict preparation and then only once a year could the high priest enter before the glory. Even then, he had to go through 'mediation'...every article of furniture from the altar, the offering, the priest himself, the door, bread, candle, incense, all representations of Jesus. And even with all that, Josephus tells us that the priests tied a rope to the HP ankle, and if they heard a long absence of tinkling of bells, they assumed he was dead and pulled him out. There is no record of that actually happening however. But I believe the concept is an important one. God totally wants to dwell with us, and when He warns that when we see His face, we die, He is serious. That does not mean that He kills us. It simply means sin cannot abide in His presence. So He protects us. Thus the need of a Mediator.

Man killed himself when he disobeyed God. That was Adam and Eve. All dead until the Way to Life was reopened. But the purification needed in us after being born again [from above or of God] include killing the beasts [the old man] for if we don't we may be led again right back into sin. Consider that our beast or beastly ways include many of those habits developed throughout our lives without God. Those habits, [such as visiting the boys at the local bar for a few drinks] when continued may lead us indeed back to where we were before or even a worse place [Matt 12:45].

The one who can kill those beasts is the Word of God in us. It is the New Man that is to kill anything left of the old man, the beast of us. We as per James 4:1 have a war going on within us. God always wins any battle in which He participates, which is why Paul warns us Not to quench the Spirit. To do so, even for one battle, puts us for the moment on our own. On our own, we will lose. In doing so the part of us habitable by God in us decreases instead of increasing. Yes, God wants to dwell totally with us and in us. The New Man can see. The Old man is blind!

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe that if anyone does sin in heaven, that their sins are covered by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ; and the only sin that would merit being cast out of heaven would be the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Nevertheless, we will have glorified bodies there and the presence of sin will be utterly gone from every equation.

 

[john t]

Honestly, what will our edge over Lucifer, and Adam and Eve be?

UPDATE: I can't understand why Christian people are so ready to tell people (even other Christians) whom they don't even know that they "don't understand the Gospel?" I'm not asking for informational purposes, and it's not meant to be a quiz or imply that I have knowledge unavailable to other Christians or even other people, in general. For many people, the Gospel is as simple as "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8) and for them, the rest is just window-dressing. More power to them, I say. I like to dig a little deeper, myself. My purpose here is simply to provoke thought and stimulate discussion. That's all. I'm not looking to "school" anybody. Honestly. I have a theory, but I'm not sure I'm anxious to put a bullseye on it right away. I don't believe that helps to encourage participation in a positive way. Whenever a line in the sand is drawn in a thread by the OP the conversation will (9 times out of 10) descend into a partisan debate, which is when the barbs really start to come out flying.

The thought question is very simple (however frustrating and elusive it may be to some):

What tangible thing will we have at our disposal that the 3 original sinners did not have that will keep us from falling as they did?

There are implications to this question that will occur to many, such as: fairness to the original 3 (e.g. will our advantage constitute unfairness to them?) For some of us, these implications can't just be summarily dismissed. God's honor must be vindicated. Many feel that full disclosure is very important to Him, à la John 16:12. The original 3 fell to temptation, albeit Lucifer somehow must have tempted himself and apparently did not repent as did the Edenic pair. I do not believe an explanation that involves just any theorized difference between our glorified nature and theirs is satisfactory. I pondered this question for over 40 years before stumbling onto an article that made me think there might actually be a solution.

Your poll questions are inaccurate, and rather condescending because EACH of them fail to take into account the simple fact that heaven is the dwelling place of God. Because He is sovereign so that only the Redeemed of God get into heaven, and because we are all given new natures, it is impossible for us to sin.

For any of the Redeemed to sin while in heaven is the equivalent to pump the contents of the "honey dipper truck" into a person's home; however, in this case, it is God's home, and the defilement of permitting just one of the Redeemed to ever sin nullifies the holiness of God, and makes the Atonement of Jesus Christ of less worth than the contents of that truck.

At one time, the spiritual beings in heaven had a choice. they could remain in heaven, and stay sinless, or they could rebel against God, and be cast out, as 1/3 of the angels, including the beautiful archangel Lucifer had the same fate.

Since Scripture tells us that the Redeemed shall have charge over the sinless angels, how then is it possible that we could sin?

What you need to do is get a higher view of who God is, and understand the total transformation that awaits those who die in Christ.

 

[BarneyFife]

I believe that if anyone does sin in heaven, that their sins are covered by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ; and the only sin that would merit being cast out of heaven would be the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Nevertheless, we will have glorified bodies there and the presence of sin will be utterly gone from every equation.

Adam and Eve had glorified bodies in Eden.

 

[BarneyFife]

Your poll questions are inaccurate, and rather condescending because EACH of them fail to take into account the simple fact that heaven is the dwelling place of God. Because He is sovereign so that only the Redeemed of God get into heaven, and because we are all given new natures, it is impossible for us to sin.

For any of the Redeemed to sin while in heaven is the equivalent to pump the contents of the "honey dipper truck" into a person's home; however, in this case, it is God's home, and the defilement of permitting just one of the Redeemed to ever sin nullifies the holiness of God, and makes the Atonement of Jesus Christ of less worth than the contents of that truck.

At one time, the spiritual beings in heaven had a choice. they could remain in heaven, and stay sinless, or they could rebel against God, and be cast out, as 1/3 of the angels, including the beautiful archangel Lucifer had the same fate.

Since Scripture tells us that the Redeemed shall have charge over the sinless angels, how then is it possible that we could sin?

What you need to do is get a higher view of who God is, and understand the total transformation that awaits those who die in Christ.

Utter nonsense. Nice hit-and-run material.

Thank you for participating.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[john t]

Utter nonsense. Nice hit-and-run material.

Thank you for participating.

Welcome to the forum!

Snarkiness never wins a discussion. EVERYTHING I stated is backed up by Scripture, so If you want me to post them, I will. but you ALSO need to provide something more persuasive than a simple and dismissive "nuh-uh" such as Scripture in its context in order to make a cogent reply.

 

[bbyrd009]

sic em john

For them then now would be the time of coming to perfection I suppose, but you don't hear them suggesting it.

um...been tryin my hardest
others here too i think?
we are plainly told where the kingdom is yeh
there is nowhere to go, it is always either within us or beside us, isnt it?

People go to great lengths denying the physical second coming saying God is already amongst us by His Spirit

fwiw i suggest that anyone holding the pov came to it after a lot of reflection, usually, and only reluctantly came to admit over time based upon Scripture that a literal "returning" is almost surely not what is meant. Who wouldnt want a literal Return? I bet you would poll over 50% of atheists agreeing there?