Saved, which means what?

[Waiting on him]

Do children ever disobey their natural fathers?

Yes naturally.

Do natural fathers ever chastise their natural children?

Yes naturally.

Who is our father, spiritually?

There’s only one Spiritual Father. ________.

And God... who are His sons?

Those He has given birth too. And it isn’t natural.

Are none of His sons ever cut off?

No.

 

[Waiting on him]

But hell is not what is referenced by 'everlasting habitations.' Christ wouldn't have commanded us to make friends by means of the unrighteous mammon so as to be condemned (Luke 16:9). By the word friends, I understand to mean those works of charity that can 'speak' favorably on our behalf on the day of judgement and number us with the sheep (Matthew 25:34-36).

Yes, friendship with the world is enmity. We understand this.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

But hell is not what is referenced by 'everlasting habitations.' Christ wouldn't have commanded us to make friends by means of the unrighteous mammon so as to be condemned (Luke 16:9). By the word friends, I understand to mean those works of charity that can 'speak' favorably on our behalf on the day of judgement and number us with the sheep (Matthew 25:34-36).

I don’t know. Will have to put this one aside for a while and maybe revisit later. You did help with everlasting habitations.

 

[Tong2020]

You used the word "ability" which is certainly wrong, whereas I would use the word, "choice"...

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

Yes I did. And it isn't at all wrong. For what I was pointing out is that salvation does not rest on man's ability. And with regards your take, while man's choice is involved in God salvation work, scriptures does not teach that salvation rest in man's choice.

As I said in my other post, with regards the salvation of mankind, as scriptures have it, it is God who saves, and it is God who have chosen. And as scriptures have it, man, by their own will and of themselves, have been shown to ever and always fall short of the glory of God. Scripture speaks of mankind, that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. God even said of man as follows :"the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth". God is Him who can save and indeed saves mankind, not because of anything else, but because that is His will, purpose, pleasure and glory, out of His love for mankind and who alone accomplishes it according to His wisdom.

God has never been a respecter of persons nor has God ever changed... Is Jesus not also here speaking of a choice in what we may or may not believe and the results of our choice?

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36

From among all peoples, scriptures tells us that God had chosen a people to be His people. It follows that the rest were not chosen by God.

As for John 3:36, such is one among the many statements of truth that John spoke of in that part of scriptures. And as to who are those who believes in the name of Jesus Christ, John identifies and describes them to us in John 1:13. They are those who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Tong
R1047

 

[amadeus]

Yes I did. And it isn't at all wrong. For what I was pointing out is that salvation does not rest on man's ability. And with regards your take, while man's choice is involved in God salvation work, scriptures does not teach that salvation rest in man's choice.

As I said in my other post, with regards the salvation of mankind, as scriptures have it, it is God who saves, and it is God who have chosen. And as scriptures have it, man, by their own will and of themselves, have been shown to ever and always fall short of the glory of God. Scripture speaks of mankind, that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. God even said of man as follows :"the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth". God is Him who can save and indeed saves mankind, not because of anything else, but because that is His will, purpose, pleasure and glory, out of His love for mankind and who alone accomplishes it according to His wisdom.



From among all peoples, scriptures tells us that God had chosen a people to be His people. It follows that the rest were not chosen by God.

As for John 3:36, such is one among the many statements of truth that John spoke of in that part of scriptures. And as to who are those who believes in the name of Jesus Christ, John identifies and describes them to us in John 1:13. They are those who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Tong
R1047

Well I guess we are finished here then. We leave it in God's capable hands. Only He give increases. Walk with Him!

 

[Tong2020]

To the rich (the manager as well as the son who stayed), God gave charity as a path to salvation and to the prodigal the path of repentance. The two are not in opposition. They are the appropriate medicine that God provided as a remedy to whatever spiritual sickness might afflict us: greed, envy, prodigality...

The only path to salvation that scriptures teach is Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Tong
R1048

 

[icxn]

The only path to salvation that scriptures teach is Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Yes, it is through Him that we can be charitable, temperate and all the other virtues that constitute the way. I do not see any contradiction. Same with finding salvation through love for God and neighbor (Luke 10:25-28).

 

[Waiting on him]

Yes, it is through Him that we can be charitable, temperate and all the other virtues that constitute the way. I do not see any contradiction. Same with finding salvation through love for God and neighbor (Luke 10:25-28).

I do believe this would be the only way one could be contrary to Him. There are many cultural laws placed on people especially through the churches, though this doesn’t mean that all are sin. @farouk posts many threads on the forum where in my opinion he try’s to imply the liberty that we have in Christ, but many find these threads offensive. This I don’t understand when Jesus Himself say take offense in nothing.

there will always be pious attitudes. Upon a close look at the gospels we see that Christ orchestrated His own crusifiction, should this be offensive? After all the “law states do not commit murder”.

 

[marksman]

It's really not that the Christians are saved on the condition that he hold fast the gospel preached to them, for we know that when they first believed and through which they were saved, such condition was not there. How then would after their believing through which they were saved, be now a condition to be saved?

If one will read carefully the passage, the part which says "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." is not a condition for salvation, but rather, a condition that tells whether or not their believing the gospel preached to them at the beginning, is sincere and true, or not.

So, to the question "If you DON'T hold fast, are you then in danger of losing your salvation?", my answer will be a NO. For if one don't hold fast, it only shows that his believing in the beginning was not really sincere and true, for then it could be said that there was no faith in the beginning, as such is a believing in vain. Thus, there is no salvation to lose.

Tong
R1044

Don't agree as your arguments are not logical and you are reading into the scripture which is not there.

 

[Brakelite]

And the new birth is irreversible. Can you find one instance where a born again believer becomes unborn in Scripture ?

Scripture says all liars will be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed. I would think that if a born again Christian doesn't repent of his lies, his birth again status won't save him. It gives him more opportunity sure, but with that comes more responsibility. I won't be unborn, he'll be dead.

 

[Tong2020]

Yes, it is through Him that we can be charitable, temperate and all the other virtues that constitute the way. I do not see any contradiction. Same with finding salvation through love for God and neighbor (Luke 10:25-28).

I agree that it is through Him that we can be charitable, temperate and all the other virtues. But we should make no mistake. That does not mean that our being charitable, temperate and all is the way through which one is saved. The Christian must be careful not to be misled into thinking that such as is charity for example is that which saves us or is the way to salvation. The good change that happens in the Christian is not something that he or she had caused in and of himself/herself, but is the work of God in them. The Christian should always remember that they are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, and that it is God who works in the Christian both to will and to do for His good pleasure. And rightfully so then, the glory in all of that is God's.

Tong
R1049

 

[Tong2020]

Birth may be irreversible, but suicide or murder actually do exist in the physical. In the spiritual? Did not Adam and Eve in effect commit spiritual suicide?

No, they did not. Eve was deceived. Adam heeded the voice of his wife Eve over that of God's, and ate of the fruit of the forbidden tree, in disobedience to Him who created them, that is, God. Besides, that has nothing to do at all with the truth that birth is irreversible.

Tong
R1050

 

[Tong2020]

To God everyone of us was dead until and if we received the Life brought by Jesus.

I agree that to God, every one of the kind of Adam were dead, that is, without life. Obviously, life there refers not to what man commonly know it is, which I will here refer to as "physical life".

Dead as all were, all were without life (not the "physical life"). Now, in John 3, Jesus declared that unless one is born from above (born again), he cannot see the kingdom of God. In other words, the dead me, to see the kingdom of God, must be reborn. However, it is not as it was when I was first born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Regarding this matter, I don't have anything to do with it whatsoever nor even have any bit of knowledge about it, as it was in my first birth. This is not at all difficult to understand in that, we were all dead and so knows nothing and could do nothing, and that, even while we have "physical life". Being born again, that is of God, has everything to do only with God, Him who recreates me by rebirth. And those whom God recreates by rebirth, they are those who are given life, so that they receive the life and thus are made alive. Now regarding the life, it is obviously not referring to "physical life", but the life spoken of by scriptures as that which is in the Word, the Word who became flesh, Jesus Christ, the Lord, who is the life Himself.

Tong
R1051

 

[Tong2020]

So then he who has received this Life must do what in order to avoid the error and punishment of Adam and Eve?

Him who received the life is said to be in Jesus Christ (who is the life). Now, here's what scriptures says relative to this: There is no more condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

Tong
R1052

 

[Tong2020]

What happens if a baby does not eat and drink? What happens if a baby eats and drinks the wrong things?

This baby is a child of God, born of God. If earthly parents makes sure that their baby is fed and fed with the right food, what more will that be of God? So, nothing at all to worry about.

Tong
R1053

 

[Tong2020]

Don't agree as your arguments are not logical and you are reading into the scripture which is not there.

You could disagree, why not. But if only that you find me not being logical (which I am not) and me reading into the text (which I did not), I would have to say that such is a shallow basis for disagreeing. But be that as it may, so be it then with you.

Tong
R1054

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You apparently still don't understand what I have been saying. May God bless you as you walk with Him!

Then help me understand.

you asked a questions and I answered the best I could

 

[Tong2020]

Scripture says all liars will be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed. I would think that if a born again Christian doesn't repent of his lies, his birth again status won't save him. It gives him more opportunity sure, but with that comes more responsibility. I won't be unborn, he'll be dead.

I could not agree to your take there because a born again Christian does repent of his lies. Otherwise, he is not truly born again. For one who is born again is a child of God, one born of God. Scriptures does not speak of one who is born of God who will be cast into the lake of fire.

Tong
R1055

 

[CadyandZoe]

The idea was posted by a friend as we see here:
@bbyrd009

bbyrd009 said: ↑
what does 'saved' even mean?" might be another interesting avenue

Some perhaps already have an idea as to where I am on this in the moment. I may allow a few to post before I get my feet wet...

As an aside:
These days this old body chills easily. I sit here at my computer typing and my fingers sometimes get so cold they hurt. I have to stop and massage them to get the circulation and hopefully the warmth back into them

It is summer here in Oklahoma, even this thus far mild summer, but my wife has to have the AC going so as not to overheat. [opposites attract...LOL]. I, on the other hand, usually have to put on a light jacket or sweater to avoid the chill of that same AC. Help us Lord...

And now back to the OP at hand with regard to "saved"!

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Christian salvation is not only deliverance from the penalty of sin; it is deliverance from the inevitability of sin. The salvation that Christ brings is deliverance from the evil that is present in each individual who follows him. The man or woman who follows him confesses himself or herself to be a sinner, while at the same time, mourning to be set free from sin, confident that whatever he prays according to God's will, God will give him or her whatever they ask.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Christ wouldn't have commanded us to make friends by means of the unrighteous mammon so as to be condemned (Luke 16:9

‘And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of wealth of injustice unrighteousness, so when it fails, ceases and comes to nothing they will receive you into the age long eternal dwellings: tabernacle, abode, mansions, habitations.’

by means of wealth of injustice and unrighteousness...wadr the topic is what is salvation ...Is salvation in what fails ‘wealth of injustice and unrighteousness’ so still not getting the (by means of). Do not (imo) think He was supporting the (by means of injustice and unrighteousness) but instead the ‘when it fails’ (Luke 6:22-24)ceases, dissolves; ‘look up for redemption draws near’ a tabernacle made without hands. 2 Corinthians 6:10-14 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. [11] O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged. [12] Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels. [13] Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged. [14] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

...And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. [15] And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:14-15