Tong2020 said:
Well, you are contrasting two things concerning election, neither of which Paul said anything about. Faith and works sure were contrasted by Paul, but not in the matter of election.
I already showed you where Paul talks about election/being chosen in terms of being elected to salvation vs. working to earn salvation. Here is where he contrasts being elected through faith vs. works.
Romans 9:11-12
...in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls...
Romans 11:5
...there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works...
Ephesians 2:8-9
...it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...not by works...
In your other post you speak of a "chosen through faith with being chosen through works". Here you differ again and speak of "elected to salvation vs. working to earn salvation". Make up your mind. Then you said here "Here is where he contrasts being elected through faith vs. works." I even don't know now what to really address. My post was addressing your teaching "chosen through faith with being chosen through works" and you respond with this confusion. So I will just comment on the passages you cited which you say is where Paul contrast "being elected through faith vs. works".
<<<Romans 9:11-12...in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls...>>>
What Paul was meaning to point out by that is the matter that God did not elect Jacob over Esau based on their works, and that God's election of Jacob was based on His will and purpose, which in Paul's words is "not of works but of Him who calls". The "Him" there refers to God. And by that Paul make his point that because it was not based on their works, so that the purpose of God in Jacob according to election might stand. There is nothing in there about Jacob there being elected through faith. The passage does not present a contrast about "being elected through faith vs. works". So, that would be a misuse of said scriptures.
<<<Romans 11:5...there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works...>>>
Paul speaks of a remnant of the nation Israel. Paul said that God had chosen by grace a remnant thereof of Israel for salvation. He tells us that among ethnic Israel, a remnant is saved by God by His election of them, an election according to His grace (not election through faith) and not according to works. Again, this passage does not present a contrast about "being elected through faith vs. works". So, this would be another misuse of scriptures.
<<<Ephesians 2:8-9...it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...not by works...>>>
This passage speaks of salvation by grace through faith, a salvation that is not of ourselves and not of works. Again, this passage does not present a contrast about "being elected through faith vs. works". Paul does not even mention nor make reference to election there. So, this would be another misuse of scriptures.
Let's stay on point here. I know you know salvation is by faith, not by works. All Protestants know this. The point we're discussing here is election is received through faith (as opposed to works). The grace of election comes through faith, not works. God saves us through the grace of election received through faith in God. This is in direct opposition to being elected/chosen to salvation through the merit of doing righteous works. Faith is the vehicle through which we receive the grace of election. "grace...through faith"-Ephesians 2:8. It's even right there in front of you in the verse you've been using.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
...God chose you...through belief...
<<<I know you know salvation is by faith, not by works.>>>
To be clear, what I know is this, that salvation is by grace through faith, and that salvation is not of ourselves but is a gift of God, and that salvation is not of works.
<<<The point we're discussing here is election is received through faith (as opposed to works).......>>>
Not to my understanding sir. For election or choosing (with regards to God on the matter of salvation) is not something received. Such is an act of God, of His will. Not something that God gives that it can be received.
<<<It's even right there in front of you in the verse you've been using. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
...God chose you...
through belief...>>>
That is because you misuse the verse. Here's what the verse says, ".....chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,". It's not the choosing that is qualified or described by the phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth". Rather it is the salvation that is qualified or described by the phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth".
Tong
R1212