John 6:66 - Why did many disciples stop following Jesus?

[Yan]

I think what makes confuse many religious people today are the works of Psychological Warfare, Brainwashing, Mentalism, and Hypnotism. What makes us different from those who were not in Christ ?
They who don't believe in Christ have the same trick and deception to make war to our soul and mind. The use of the "mind altering" are based on direct influence through mainstream media and tv by many agents as propaganda. Many believers have the same deception and interference in their mind, and those who were not knew this psyops in religion thinks that they were being targeted as gang stalking of RNM.
The use of hypnosis are related with the devil works because hypnosis are summoning our mind to control our will to reject our believe in God. I think this method was used the same like Paul was intimidated by the devil from those who reject Christ (2 Corinthians 12:7-8), and also used to lead Solomon to the Molech and Ashtoreth (1 Kings 11:1-13).
Because by this world, Jesus was the forbidden kingdom by the Evil One who ruled the world since the day of Nimrod. I think many believers should consider this phenom and ask their own did they also experience this when they believe in Christ ?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said:
Well, you are contrasting two things concerning election, neither of which Paul said anything about. Faith and works sure were contrasted by Paul, but not in the matter of election.

I already showed you where Paul talks about election/being chosen in terms of being elected to salvation vs. working to earn salvation. Here is where he contrasts being elected through faith vs. works.

Romans 9:11-12
...in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls...

Romans 11:5
...there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works...

Ephesians 2:8-9
...it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...not by works...

In your other post you speak of a "chosen through faith with being chosen through works". Here you differ again and speak of "elected to salvation vs. working to earn salvation". Make up your mind. Then you said here "Here is where he contrasts being elected through faith vs. works." I even don't know now what to really address. My post was addressing your teaching "chosen through faith with being chosen through works" and you respond with this confusion. So I will just comment on the passages you cited which you say is where Paul contrast "being elected through faith vs. works".

<<<Romans 9:11-12...in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls...>>>
What Paul was meaning to point out by that is the matter that God did not elect Jacob over Esau based on their works, and that God's election of Jacob was based on His will and purpose, which in Paul's words is "not of works but of Him who calls". The "Him" there refers to God. And by that Paul make his point that because it was not based on their works, so that the purpose of God in Jacob according to election might stand. There is nothing in there about Jacob there being elected through faith. The passage does not present a contrast about "being elected through faith vs. works". So, that would be a misuse of said scriptures.

<<<Romans 11:5...there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works...>>>
Paul speaks of a remnant of the nation Israel. Paul said that God had chosen by grace a remnant thereof of Israel for salvation. He tells us that among ethnic Israel, a remnant is saved by God by His election of them, an election according to His grace (not election through faith) and not according to works. Again, this passage does not present a contrast about "being elected through faith vs. works". So, this would be another misuse of scriptures.

<<<Ephesians 2:8-9...it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...not by works...>>>
This passage speaks of salvation by grace through faith, a salvation that is not of ourselves and not of works. Again, this passage does not present a contrast about "being elected through faith vs. works". Paul does not even mention nor make reference to election there. So, this would be another misuse of scriptures.

Let's stay on point here. I know you know salvation is by faith, not by works. All Protestants know this. The point we're discussing here is election is received through faith (as opposed to works). The grace of election comes through faith, not works. God saves us through the grace of election received through faith in God. This is in direct opposition to being elected/chosen to salvation through the merit of doing righteous works. Faith is the vehicle through which we receive the grace of election. "grace...through faith"-Ephesians 2:8. It's even right there in front of you in the verse you've been using.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
...God chose you...through belief...

<<<I know you know salvation is by faith, not by works.>>>
To be clear, what I know is this, that salvation is by grace through faith, and that salvation is not of ourselves but is a gift of God, and that salvation is not of works.

<<<The point we're discussing here is election is received through faith (as opposed to works).......>>>
Not to my understanding sir. For election or choosing (with regards to God on the matter of salvation) is not something received. Such is an act of God, of His will. Not something that God gives that it can be received.

<<<It's even right there in front of you in the verse you've been using. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
...God chose you...through belief...>>>
That is because you misuse the verse. Here's what the verse says, ".....chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,". It's not the choosing that is qualified or described by the phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth". Rather it is the salvation that is qualified or described by the phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth".

Tong
R1212

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said:
Consider this, was Jacob elected on the basis of faith?

Yes. Paul explains this in Romans 9:11-12. It's obvious from the life Jacob lived that he certainly wasn't elected on the basis of his works, lol, but instead on the basis of his faith in the promises made to him through Abraham. And that's the point. No reason to complicate the matter beyond that central fact.

Where in scriptures did you get that Jacob was elected on the basis of his faith? You made this up, right?
______________________
Tong2020 said:
And this, was Paul chosen on the basis of faith?

Chosen to salvation? Yes. As I've shown, he himself explains how God's grace in election is received through faith, not through works.

Read scriptures about Paul's election. You can start with Acts 9. Then perhaps you can come back and tell me what you learned about that, if not, that he was chosen not because of his faith. In fact, he was a literal enemy of Jesus Christ and the church when he was converted. His election was clearly by God's grace according to God's will and purpose.
___________________
Tong2020 said:
And this, were the 12 disciples chosen on the basis of faith? Did Jacob, Paul, and the 12 disciples get themselves chosen by God based on something or were they chosen by God according to His will and purpose?

Yes, they were chosen on the basis of their faith. The way God planned and intended it to be from the beginning. Paul explains that God's will and purpose is that man be saved by the grace of election received through faith, not by works (Romans 9:11-12). And that it's always been that way. But Protestants make God's will and purpose in election out to be that God decided ahead of time that you will be created to be a believer. They miss the whole point of the faith vs. works argument and wander off into these meaningless, misguided teachings about God choosing who is going to be created a believer and who won't.

<<<Yes, they were chosen on the basis of their faith.>>>
Please show where in scriptures does it say that concerning the election of Jacob, Paul, and the 12 disciples. One just have to read the narratives in scriptures how Jacob was chosen, how Paul was chosen and how the 12 were chosen, and see that such is not the case, but were all chosen by grace according to God's will and purpose.

Tong
R1213

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
It seems this is your doctrine then: (focusing on the how) To get yourself chosen by God, you believe Him.

That is what Paul teaches. Because your works certainly won't get God to choose you. Paul uses the Patriarchs to illustrate this important truth.

Well, that may be your understanding, but to me it's not what scriptures teach. I stated that just so to be clear that it is what you do teach and believe.
_______________________
Tong2020 said:
So, you teach that by having faith in God, you get to be chosen by God.

Yes. Because as I've shown you that is what Paul says. God's will and purpose from creation is that man be saved through the grace of election through faith, not saved by the merit of his righteous works.

And I have shown that it's not. But let's go further and see.
_________________
Tong2020 said:
And having faith in God, means you chose God over false gods, right? That means you choose God, so that God will choose you, right? That means you choose God before God choose you. Is that right?

No, that is not right. Think about it like this. When we elect/choose a President here in the United States he does not choose us, we choose him, and we do that based on the criteria we have set, not him. If he satisfies the criteria we seek we elect/choose him, he does not choose us. In the case of salvation, God has set the criteria upon which he elects/chooses an individual seeking salvation. If you meet that criteria he chooses you, just as he said he would do. That criteria is that you have faith in God's promise, not that you perform righteous works.

First let me comment on your analogy. It is not like that with God. The election or choosing of a president does not even comes close to the election of God, except perhaps that it's called election. The election of God is not a choice of one over another or a choice made by a comparison of one person to another person as in a presidential election. The election of God is an act of God, according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.

<<<That criteria is that you have faith in God's promise, not that you perform righteous works.>>>
If faith is the criteria, then no man will be chosen, for man does not have faith. It is the very reason why man is in a condemned state.

I asked "having faith in God, means you chose God over false gods, right? ". Your answer is "No, that is not right."? Then what does it mean to have faith in God, if you had not chose Him over false gods? Let me try to put it another way then.

Believing God over false gods, is choosing God over false gods. In other words, having faith in God over other false God, is choosing God. According to your doctrine then, since you choose God, that is have faith in Him and not on false gods, you then get yourself chosen by God. That means that you choose God before God gets to choose you. That is your doctrine, right? That is how one gets chosen by God according to your doctrine, right? --- Choose God by having faith in Him and you will get to be chosen by God. You choose God first before God gets to choose you. This is what you teach, right?

Tong
R1214

 

[FollowHim]

So Jesus is going to let his very own disciples who gave up everything to follow him, leave him based on a misunderstanding? A lack of knowledge?

The Jews knew what Jesus meant. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 52. Angry arguments breakout 52. Jesus then give an “ultimatum” after the disciples argued over his teaching? “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.” 53 The disciples then said "this saying is hard, who can accept it?" 60 Then Jesus said, “what if you see the son of man ascend to where he was before?” (62) Contextually, why would Jesus say this? Is ascending to heaven incomprehensible? Yes! So is bread becoming literal flesh. It is of the miraculous, and that is the obvious point Jesus makes in verse 62.

Supernatural faith means to believe beyond scientific understanding or laws of nature; of the miraculous similar to his supernatural birth and the multiplying of bread and fish. Many disciples lacked in supernatural faith and therefore left him and went back to their former ways of living.

The disciples clearly lacked in FAITH in what Jesus was saying. Turning bread into flesh. They denied God who can do anything! And so do you! You are denying God just like the disciples. Hopefully it's of ignorance and not a hardened heart; a hardened heart seeking to be right in your own mind rather than seeking the truth. God Bless!

A thought occurs to me, what is your supernatural faith?
All I have met who claim supernatural faith have been delusional, living in dreams and visions of going to other places, heavenlies.
LSD creates similar impressions, but they are just overpowering the mind and imagination, and letting things rip.

A great healer came to London, to proclaim healing for the people, that they might see miracles and come to Christ.
After weeks of preaching and sharing, not one miracle could be medically testified to.

One man claimed he had the Holy Spirit and authority to such a degree to oppose him was to oppose God. And obviously in his eyes I was opposing God because I did not believe this man could command things into existence and his words carried authority. His faith was this authority was the basis of the gospel, and demonstrating how he was the oracle was going to change everything as he was in Gods will. Problem was he was wrong, delusionary wrong.

Another man claimed angels spoke to him, Gabriel to be precise, and the mission was to spread wealth and blessing to those who held faith, whatever that meant. His idea was people in the meeting would be electrified, like an ointment, just be in God, it would overflow, almost outside faith, behaviour or knowledge, because you were there. Turns out though he could create a drunken stupor in himself, no healing, no great event, but boy his affair with one of the women in his team was just great.

If one is looking for an emotional high, feeling great, the world is full of situations that can create this, but they do not define truth, just a subjective high. And they are important in life, to know when things are going well and things are falling apart, but they do not define authority or reality. So I wonder in the context of the above, what do you actually have?

 

[Waiting on him]

25"I did tell you and you don't believe," Jesus answered them. "The works that I do in My Father's name testify about Me.
so, not saying that you dont have a point also, maybe, but seems to me this endless, never finished, never agreed upon debate of "faith v works" is like somehow a chimera, it has a life of its own, been hearing it for 45 years now lol, been on both sides, condemned both sides even, and the solution seems pretty clear now i guess.
so much for work to make your calling and election sure huh?
y'all might at least contemplate the possibility that your current definition of "saved" is off somehow, ok? Well i mean i dont know about mine either lol, dont get me wrong, but i would ask you both what does "saved" mean to you, practically speaking?
"Going up to heaven to become an immortal after i have died?"
or something along those lines if you dont mind, like a sentence or less ok

Rescued from the delusional self image.


“I love me some me”

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<That criteria is that you have faith in God's promise, not that you perform righteous works.>>>
If faith is the criteria, then no man will be chosen, for man does not have faith. It is the very reason why man is in a condemned state.

The faith we need to meet God's criteria to be saved is given to us by God. That's what makes salvation a gracious gift.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Read scriptures about Paul's election. You can start with Acts 9. Then perhaps you can come back and tell me what you learned about that, if not, that he was chosen not because of his faith. In fact, he was a literal enemy of Jesus Christ and the church when he was converted. His election was clearly by God's grace according to God's will and purpose.

Don't confuse his call to ministry with the call to salvation. Both are happening in the account. And don't confuse God's call with God's election/choosing of a person. God called him and he responded in faith and so was elected/chosen to salvation. If he had not responded in faith to God's call he would not have been elected. Many are called but few are chosen.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The election of God is not a choice of one over another or a choice made by a comparison of one person to another person as in a presidential election. The election of God is an act of God, according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.

You have this bloated connotation of election that makes it so you can't see that it simply means to be picked. To be chosen. It's not necessarily your fault. The reformers developed these doctrinally bloated concepts about election and have caused the church to lose sight of the fact that it simply means to be chosen and set apart for salvation. And that happens through our faith (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 9:11, Romans 11:5-6), as opposed to through our works.

 

[Tong2020]

The faith we need to meet God's criteria to be saved is given to us by God. That's what makes salvation a gracious gift.

Yes, faith is given by God. You just confirmed by that what I just told you, that man does not have faith. As to whom gets to have faith belongs to God. So, how do you get to meet the faith criteria to be chosen by God for salvation in that case?

Tong
R1215

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yes, faith is given by God. You just confirmed by that what I just told you, that man does not have faith. As to whom gets to have faith belongs to God. So, how do you get to meet the faith criteria to be chosen by God for salvation in that case?

Tong
R1215

You accept it.

 

[Tong2020]

Don't confuse his call to ministry with the call to salvation. Both are happening in the account. And don't confuse God's call with God's election/choosing of a person. God called him and he responded in faith and so was elected/chosen to salvation. If he had not responded in faith to God's call he would not have been elected. Many are called but few are chosen.

No sir, I do not confuse anything there. The account is clear. Paul was an enemy of Jesus and the church. He does not believe in Jesus Christ. Now when did Jesus Christ choose him to be His vessel to bear His name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel? Was it not while he was yet a sinner and without faith in Jesus Christ? And with that election of him (Paul) to be an apostle of Jesus, does that not amount to his election for salvation? Yes it does. Since, for him to be an apostle of Jesus Christ, he must be converted unto salvation.

And it seems you've forgotten, faith is given by God. Paul was given faith by God that he believed in Jesus. That Paul believed Jesus despite his strong belief that Jesus is not the Messiah and is the enemy of Judaism, and despite his strong zeal to destroy those who belong to the Way, breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, is testimony that he received faith from the Lord. Without a doubt, God had worked in the heart of Paul that resulted to his conversion. Don't you see, the giving of faith by God to a person is testimony that such person was chosen by God for salvation. Don't you see, such person was chosen by God for salvation not because he have faith. It's not 'election through faith', as you contend and teach.

Tong
R1216

 

[Tong2020]

You have this bloated connotation of election that makes it so you can't see that it simply means to be picked. To be chosen. It's not necessarily your fault. The reformers developed these doctrinally bloated concepts about election and have caused the church to lose sight of the fact that it simply means to be chosen and set apart for salvation. And that happens through our faith (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 9:11, Romans 11:5-6), as opposed to through our works.

So, you don't believe that God works all things according to the counsel of His will? If you do, then you would believe that His election of people for His purpose such as for salvation, is according to the counsel of His will.

Tong
R1217

 

[Tong2020]

You accept it.

Well you could only accept it and will have it if you were among those, by grace, God had chosen for salvation in the first place.

See also my post #232.

Tong
R1218

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Well you could only accept it and will have it if you were among those, by grace, God had chosen for salvation in the first place.

See also my post #232.

Tong
R1218

No, you have it available to you by virtue of God's calling. Many are called but few are chosen.......because many reject the faith that comes by hearing the word of God.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So, you don't believe that God works all things according to the counsel of His will? If you do, then you would believe that His election of people for His purpose such as for salvation, is according to the counsel of His will.

Tong
R1217

Of course it's God's will that people be saved through the grace of election through faith, not through works. God works all things to this end.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No sir, I do not confuse anything there. The account is clear. Paul was an enemy of Jesus and the church. He does not believe in Jesus Christ. Now when did Jesus Christ choose him to be His vessel to bear His name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel? Was it not while he was yet a sinner and without faith in Jesus Christ? And with that election of him (Paul) to be an apostle of Jesus, does that not amount to his election for salvation? Yes it does. Since, for him to be an apostle of Jesus Christ, he must be converted unto salvation.

Him being chosen to be an apostle is in addition to him being chosen to be saved. Being chosen to fulfill an office doesn't depend on whether or not he has faith in God. It will always be that he was chosen to fulfill that duty whether he gets saved or not. But that's not true of him being chosen for salvation. That depends on him having faith in God. He can't be chosen for salvation until he has faith in God. But he can surely be chosen for a ministry before he has faith. That's what the account says. But obviously he can't operate in that ministry until he gets saved. But him being chosen for it remains a fact whether he responds to the call or not. Not true for salvation. You have to respond in faith to be chosen for salvation.

That's why it was important to distinguish the calling to an office of ministry and the calling to salvation itself in the conversaion I was having with @JohnDB in another thread which I think you participated in too. The topic of that particular thread was being called and chosen to eternal life, not being called to an office of ministry.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Don't you see, the giving of faith by God to a person is testimony that such person was chosen by God for salvation.

No, it's the receiving of faith, not rejecting it, that testifies to a person having been chosen to salvation. Lot's of people are given the faith to believe in Christ but they choose not to do anything with it and reject it and they go back to the world of their unbelief and are lost.

It's not 'election through faith', as you contend and teach.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
...God chose you...to be saved...through belief in the truth.

Now tell me how it's not through belief in the truth that one is chosen to be saved.

 

[farouk]

yeah I’m also. He said He would put His Spirit in them(and walk in them): not the spirit the world gives, a spirit of fear again unto bondage.

But His Spirit He gives: the Spirit of power, love, and of a sound mind. Was trying to point out does God not have foreknowledge in declaring the former things and ‘New things I declare before they spring forth’, telling the end from the beginning. does God not have foreknowledge the mind of man tossed to and fro by the waves can not believe but will evidently sink, not able to stand ‘bearing all things, hope all things, believe all things, endure all things’ ...does God not have foreknowledge of ‘the Mind of Christ’?? Which He gives? Not as the world gives but God?

@VictoryinJesus Oh I don't think it means He did not have foreknowledge; not at all; this would mean He is not omniscient, which clearly is not the case. Rather, it would seem that He was testing His professed followers' faith.

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

Can you not answer those questions yourself? Do you have your Bible? Is the Bible not adequate enough to answer my simple questions?

Well, if not, then I have no other recourse then but to seek answers elsewhere.

Tong
R1211

Yes my friend however I have a job and I'm super busy. If you go to www.catholic.com they will direct you to all those verses. I've already answer many of your questions with verses, yet you have not followed up on. God Bless