John 6:66 - Why did many disciples stop following Jesus?

[Truthcampaign.org]

Of course you'll say that without even attempting to tell us your or your Church's interpretation.

It seems pretty clear that you just want for us to believe whatever you or your Church say is right to be what is right, and whatever you or your Church say is wrong to be what is wrong with regards the understanding of scriptures. In effect, that would be telling us that your Church tells the people that if their reading of scriptures does not fall in line with what they teach, their understanding is wrong. That is exactly what the Scribes and Pharisees say to the people of Israel. Are you not in the know of what resulted from this, that there was the necessity that the former covenant of God with Israel be replaced by a new covenant where it says among others, "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them."? And so the many "Woes" in Mt. 23 to Scribes and the Pharisees who sit in Moses’ seat.

<<<Many seek to be right, and as a result, they fail to seek the truth.>>>
Your favorite line I have noticed. Perhaps you should clarify who are these "many" you are referring to. Else such statement really do not make much sense. What is the truth they fail to seek?

And again your answer to my request is yet another link. Another article that again will be shown to be flawed, which seek to tell the Catholics how they should answer such question pertaining to Mt.23:9, when what they ought to do is explain why they should call all the priests as "father". What the article really does there is to promote the "Catholic Church" as the only one who have and knows the truth, and is the only one who can teach the truth, and that then, one can only learn and understand the words of God in scriptures through them, as if their word is infallible, which to my knowledge is what is claimed.

The article said and I quote:

"If a Catholic is wrong in calling his priest “father,” then everyone who refers to his own natural father as “father” is also in the wrong. Both usages would be prohibited by a literal interpretation of Jesus’ words."

The article clearly is coming from a misuse of the scriptures in Mt. 23:9, taking the passage out of context. The argument is really no argument at all and if ever, a very weak one at that. The article puts forth such weak argument, one that is easily refuted.

So, there is the error again. The context is with regards the Scribes and Pharisees, who sit in Moses’ seat. The context clearly is with regards the office of the Levitical priesthood, that involves the teaching of God's words found in the Jewish Bible, of which the Scribes and Pharisees, in those days were occupied with. It's definitely not about our own natural fathers and ancestors. That's why, regarding the reference verses you gave, James 2:21 and Acts 7:2, I said that they are not in the same sense and context as that in Matthew 23:9. 1 Cor 4:15, on the other hand is also not in the same sense and context as that in Matthew 23:9, for Paul there was speaking as an apostle of Jesus Christ. While the sense in which Paul speaks of "father" in that passage is not with regards to natural relation or to natural ancestry, but with regards spiritual relationship, if I may so call it, the context there is about the gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is not the same as in Mt. 23:9. Paul, in that sense of "father" said that the Christians do not have many fathers, or in the version you quoted "you still have no more than one father".

So, why do you have so many fathers (all Catholic priests numbering to thousands upon thousands). Tell us, how are they all your "fathers"? Why do you call them all "father". I am sure you know the reason why you do, for I believe you don't do it blindly but with knowledge, so you don't need anyone else in a link to do that for you.

As I pointed out in my post #511, even while Paul in 1 Cor. 4:15 speaks of himself as a father in a sense to the Christians in Corinth, nowhere in that scriptures does it say and effectively say that they are to call Paul, "father". I know not one passage where the apostles were called "father". Is Peter, John, James, and all the other apostles, fathers to the church in Corinth? Were they all called father by the church during their time - father Paul, father Peter, father John, etc...? Where then is this idea of calling all your priests "father" coming from? Apparently, it's not coming from scriptures.

Tong
R1298

You make no sense at all.

Call no man father on the earth. Either hyperbole or not? You claim we need to take it literal here, but not literal there.

I provided a link that clearly describes the Churches interpretation using logic, facts and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. My sister in-law is "bible only" as well. She doesn't believe your stance on this but does believe you on the Eucharist. She claims the Holy Spirit is guiding her too. Someone is clearly not being guided by God. Answer this for me: Who is guided by the Holy Spirit; is it you, is it her or the 1.3 billion Catholics that have ONE set of doctrinal beliefs? Hmmm...

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I believe I have indeed witnessed Acts 2.42 practised:

"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

Was it like this?

1 Corinthians 14:26
When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

It's amazing how God actually moves in his people when the pastor leads a discussion of the scriptures where everyone can participate instead of him rattling off a boring, irrelevant sermon and walking everyone through the procedures of your denomination's cold, dead, empty liturgy.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The thing is these dead church services (dead because the Holy Spirit is not allowed to operate) may not FEEL dead or cold to people who have an emotional attachment to the traditional practices of a regimented church service. But I think these services would begin to feel dead to these people once they have experienced the life of the Spirit truly moving in a church service.

That's why I say I will NEVER go back to the regimented liturgy of a mainline church. NEVER.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

or the 1.3 billion Catholics that have ONE set of doctrinal beliefs?

You mean the 1.3 billion Catholics who completely ignore 1 Corinthians 14:26 but who claim they are the only correct, enlightened believers that exist?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

You mean the 1.3 billion Catholics who completely ignore 1 Corinthians 14:26 but who claim they are the only correct, enlightened believers that exist?

Hmm, I would say that cessationism is the worst thing to come out of the Reformation. I guess the reformers didn't let go of all unscriptural beliefs held by their Catholic predecessors. From what I hear, though, there are Spirit-filled Catholics as well as Spirit-filled Protestants, so there is hope.

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

You mean the 1.3 billion Catholics who completely ignore 1 Corinthians 14:26 but who claim they are the only correct, enlightened believers that exist?

St Paul is writing to the Church in Corinth. Yes the Church! Not to a bunch of bible interpreters because there was no bible until 300 plus years later. Hath an interpretation of what, the Old Testament?! Keep it in context people!!!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

St Paul is writing to the Church in Corinth. Yes the Church! Not to a bunch of bible interpreters because there was no bible until 300 plus years later. Hath an interpretation of what, the Old Testament?! Keep it in context people!!!

Huh? When you say "Church," you mean the Catholic Church. Was Paul writing to the "Catholic Church"???

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

Huh? When you say "Church," you mean the Catholic Church. Was Paul writing to the "Catholic Church"???

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Great answer! Thanks!

Edit: Oh, that's right. You believe that the early church and the Roman Catholic Church are one in the same. But I beg to differ as so many others on this thread and other threads have done.....................

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

Huh? When you say "Church," you mean the Catholic Church. Was Paul writing to the "Catholic Church"???

Catholic means in the Greek, "according to the whole." Then... you put the word church next to it. According to the whole Church. It's name, "according to the whole" church, was given because of people in Corinth for example were not listening. It's either you are with the whole church or you are scattered.

By the way 1cor 14:26, "hath interpretation" meaning from St. Paul is about interpreting people that speak in tongues. Please read in context

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Catholic means in the Greek, "according to the whole." Then... you put the word church next to it. According to the whole Church. It's name, "according to the whole" church, was given because of people in Corinth for example were not listening. It's either you are with the whole church or you are scattered.

By the way 1cor 14:26, "hath interpretation" meaning from St. Paul is about interpreting people that speak in tongues. Please read in context

Yeah, but you're confusing catholic (small "c") with Catholic (capital "c"). Haven't we been through all of this already??

 

[Tong2020]

You make no sense at all.

Perhaps, not to you.

Call no man father on the earth. Either hyperbole or not? You claim we need to take it literal here, but not literal there.

Not hyperbole. There is no exaggeration by Jesus there. Jesus said "Do not call anyone on earth your father...". I don't know why that is hard for you to understand. Jesus even continued to say why he said that. The reason is "for One is your Father, He who is in heaven."

So, don't be shy. Tell us, how are all the Catholic priests your "fathers"? Why do you call them all "father" even while in scriptures we don't read any instance that Peter, John, James, and all the other apostles, were called father by the church during their time - father Paul, father Peter, father John, etc...?

I provided a link that clearly describes the Churches interpretation using logic, facts and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. My sister in-law is "bible only" as well. She doesn't believe your stance on this but does believe you on the Eucharist. She claims the Holy Spirit is guiding her too. Someone is clearly not being guided by God. Answer this for me: Who is guided by the Holy Spirit; is it you, is it her or the 1.3 billion Catholics that have ONE set of doctrinal beliefs? Hmmm...

<<<Who is guided by the Holy Spirit; is it you, is it her or the 1.3 billion Catholics that have ONE set of doctrinal beliefs?>>>
So now you appeal to numbers? Well,....
You seem to suggest that who is guided by the Holy Spirit is settled by how many or by the number of people that have one set of doctrinal beliefs. Muslims are big in number as well and have one set of doctrine as well. Would that mean that they are guided by the Holy Spirit?

But I, and I guess your sister-in-law, believe in what God says in scriptures, and so I go to scriptures for the truth, since the apostles are no more. For it has been told that there will be false brethren, even antiChrists, and false teachers, who even during the days of the apostles were already there in the midst of the church. Paul elsewhere said "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves." Thank God we have the truth written in scriptures. Now, scriptures said this truth, that the Holy Spirit will guide the Christian into all truth, who even dwells in him. Must I rely on Him or on man with regards the truth? The answer is too obvious isn't it?

Tong
R1299

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

Yeah, but you're confusing catholic (small "c") with Catholic (capital "c"). Haven't we been through all of this already??

For entertainment, please explain.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

For entertainment, please explain.

I’d rather watch a good movie. Have you ever seen Flywheel?

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

Not hyperbole. There is no exaggeration by Jesus there. Jesus said "Do not call anyone on earth your father...". I don't know why that is hard for you to understand. Jesus even continued to say why he said that. The reason is "for One is your Father, He who is in heaven."

You use hyperbole to dodge my verses, but no hyperbole for priests.

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

I’d rather watch a good movie. Have you ever seen Flywheel?

I don't blame you! Have not seen. Enjoy

 

[Tong2020]

You use hyperbole to dodge my verses, but no hyperbole for priests.

Dodge your verses? What verses in scriptures are yours?

Anyway, since I am here to share the word of God and not for anything else, and since you can't tell us the reason why you call all your priests "father", I will just have to conclude that you don't know why and that you just do it because it was Catholic Church's tradition and you just follow what you've been taught and told, being a Catholic yourself.

And since you don't seem to acknowledge that none of the apostles were called "father" by the church then in scriptures and can't give your thoughts as to why is that, I will just have to conclude that perhaps you were not taught about it nor have thought about it.

Now, let it be clear that the subject of Catholics calling all Catholic priests "father" really is not to ridicule the Catholic Church, but to point out to them that the scriptures could guide them concerning the truth on that. Christians all still fall into sin as they are not yet perfected, even being still in the body of death. However, they are to diligently seek and know the truth and sin not. In Matthew 23:9 Jesus told His disciples to call no one on earth their father. He said that in the context pertaining to the leaders of the covenant people (Israel) of God, the Scribes and Pharisees, who sit in Moses’ seat. The context clearly is with regards the office of the Levitical priesthood, that involves the teaching of God's words found in the Jewish Bible, of which the Scribes and Pharisees, in those days were occupied with. It's definitely not in the context pertaining to our natural fathers and ancestors nor in the context pertaining to natural relations. Let's have the context:

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

Clearly, Jesus was talking about the Scribes and Pharisees, that they sit in Moses' seat. Regarding them who sit on Moses' seat, Jesus said to the people and to His disciples, "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do." The context then pertains to those who sit in authority, such serious authority as can be seen in what Jesus said there. Jesus went on to tell them about those who sit in authority saying "for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’". In effect, Jesus was telling the people that they ought to look out on what these men in authority tell them to observe and do, and to look out on what these authorities do. One of which that they do, that Jesus in this passage brought forth in focus, is loving being called by men 'Rabbi' or 'teacher'. Jesus strongly objected to that, that He declared that such should not be so, saying "But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.". Again, do not forget the context of that statement of Jesus. He is referring to those who sits in authority as leaders of the people of God. The "you" in His statement does not therefore refer to all of them to whom he speaks, but most likely to His disciples to whom He will give such authority. In addition to that, He told them "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven." He told and commanded them that in the same context. Jesus' commanding them that, only points to the fact that the Scribes and Pharisees of those days have themselves called by men not only "Rabbi" or "teacher", but also "father", which Jesus clearly there says it should not be. That is one of the many sins of those men and leaders of Judaism, which Jesus exposed, others of which can be read in Mt.23.

In the present time, as also was for a long time in the past, in the Catholic Church, the leaders have themselves as the "father" of those who belong to their Church. That Matthew 23:9 is relevant to this is because they are the leaders who sit in authority, an authority such as that of the Scribes and Pharisees in Judaism, in things pertaining to God.

Can we call our natural father and ancestors, "father"? Yes, for the sense and context of that is not the same as that in Matthew 23:9. For the same reason, we can call our teachers in school, "teacher".

I hope this helps.

Tong
R1300

 

[Ferris Bueller]

St Paul is writing to the Church in Corinth. Yes the Church! Not to a bunch of bible interpreters because there was no bible until 300 plus years later. Hath an interpretation of what, the Old Testament?! Keep it in context people!!!

Then why do your leaders not obey what he commanded?

 

[ChristisGod]

That's why I say I will NEVER go back to the regimented liturgy of a mainline church. NEVER.

,
What interesting is that during the dark ages - reformation only the clergy had access to the written word of God therefor the people had go to a building(church,parish,etc) to hear Gods word.

That is no longer the case since the invention of the printing press and the people eventually were able to acquire a copy of the bible but not until the 1800's was it readily available to the population.

Fast forward today- we no longer need the "conventional" church building to read, learn and hear the word of God as most people have several copies and various translations in their homes and online.

Believers met in their homes. 1 Corinthians 16:19, “The churches of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Prisca, together with the church in their house, send you hearty greetings.” Colossians 4:15, “Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.” Philemon 2, “[I write to] Apphia our sister and Archippus our fellow soldier, and the church in your house.”

The early church did not worship God in buildings/temples but in their homes. They did not pay CLERGY salaries, pay for elaborate church buildings and all the other expenses that go along with traditional churches. They gave to help the needy, widows and orphan's and support those in need , not the salary of the clergy. The Apostles worked.

Acts 2:45
They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need

I'm glad for covid, I'm glad we cannot meet in buildings so the church can be the church. We are the church wherever we live, the building is not the church with its hierarchy. Wake up people of God the Spirit of the living God dwells in you, not in buildings made by man.

Acts 7:48
However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands.

Acts 17:24,25
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; …

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

hope this helps !!!

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

Then why do your leaders not obey what he commanded?

The Church doctrine is there and is what the Lord commanded the Church to do. If you are talking about individuals like Popes, Bishop, priest, etc... Some have not and some are and were wicked evil. Jesus even said there will be wolves dress in sheeps clothing. Plenty of Judas's!

If you're the devil and you know the Church helps soul, where are you going to attack? Within!