All the fulness of Deity dwells in Him Bodily !

[Taken]

Continued 3

Background is necessary to understand... nothing has changed. Men will either learn Gods "ORDER and WAY," or they will choose Not to., and Rather Devise and follow after "their own ORDER and WAY".

You really wanted the Quick answer, of being provided An Understanding of Proof, about God, and already prepared by your questions, that IF I responded to your questions, either answer would leave you in the same dilemma, and make me appear unknowing.

Background is paramount. About Gods Creation AND MAKING. Your own experience is paramount, of what you first Trusted and Why, as a child, as you grew. And Gods Teaching of foreshadowing (which is the case With Adam, One man, woman forth out of man, seemingly TWO individual's, but God called by ONE name, joined them as ONE in marriage...called by later, Adam and Eve, two names. It's a Foreshadow of God, the Father, and God the Son, coming Forth out from God)
(John 16:27).
Understanding, what comes forth out from you, is still in you.
If you put on Lion garb, tell a child you are a Lion...the intent is a means to Teach a Child, rather than to Lie and Deceive him.
• You thus can call things that ARE NOT, as though they ARE, and the understanding thereof, reveals the INTENT expectation is for understanding NOT deception.
(Rom 4:17)

God Prepared a Body FOR His Word For When His Word wouls be Sent to Eart, For men TO SEE. (Heb 10:5)
God SENT His Word To Earth, in the LIKENESS, as an Earthly Man. (Precisely For and So men Could SEE).
He was revealed in the Same FASHION, human men are Revealed (Law of Nature) 9 months in the Womb, delivered forth / born out is a woman's womb, called by Mary's and Joseph's Genealogically, line of lawful ancestors, father, g-fathers etc.

What he was Called was "Son of Man".
What was born of Mary was "Son of Man".

Mary was called His mother, and He her son.
Legally that is True. Women birth sons, and are called the mother.

Mary was Also told...what was in her Womb was a "Holy Thing"... (Luke 1:35)
What Scripture reveals is "that Holy Thing" in Mary's womb, was in her womb, By the Power of God, NOT by the Power, desires, flesh or blood of man. (John 1:13)
Further Mary was told, that child WOULD BE Called "the Son of God") (Luke 1:35)

• ORDER and WAY ...is Keeping in perspective...of WHAT is Foretold...is what it IS, when it Comes to pass. (As God reveals)

*** It is like having Foreknowledge...knowing it has NOT YET come to pass...but yet speaking From your BELIEF (trusting IT WILL come to pass).

Similar to a Jewish Betrothal (engagement), a promise to MARRY. Even though the bride and groom may never have SEEN one another. The Contract of Word, Promise TO marry, was to thereafter "TREATED" AS IF they were already married, (even though the Wedding had NOT Occurred) and TO Break off an engagement, would Require A Divorce Agreement.

So therein is the Basis for what men Say and Claim.
God SENT His Word (Holy Thing) To Earth in the LIKENESS (Body God Prepared), as A man, (particular man- Jewish, from the Direct line of Faithful Abraham descending to Faithful king David, to Joseph and Mary, ONE Flesh, of the House of David.

You Are an Adult. You have your own hearing and knowledge and experiences that has left you with more questions than answers or understanding.

My suggestion would be...Dont hang in confusion, or Hope another man can Understand For you....that does not work.
• Start over...as a child.
Read The Past...of the Fortelling of the future that Would come to pass. (Isa 55:11)
• whose Word is Said.
• whose Word can you Verify has come to pass.
• whose Word can you Learn to Trust.
• whose Word will you diligently search, verify, trust?
• SEE what AND called by whom God SENT to Earth.
• Bit by bit follow the ORDER.
• Discover... WHY men Speak of the Son of man...being Discovered IS called the Son of God, when/why...Same with when, WHY, BY WHOM is Jesus called the Christ, Christ called the Power of God, yet men can not See God, and God is the Whole Essence of His ONE Self- Spirit, Power, Word, All-Knowing, All-Present, All-powerful etc.
• WHY God creates, then MAKES a man's body Alive, kills that Body...yet Offers a Man, Opportunity, to Be Born Again, receive Gods SEE, reBith the man's spirit, from corrupt to uncorrupt, and Gain Forever Spiritual Life.
(That all ^ saving of the soul, rebirth of a man's spirit, raising of a body in glory... is All about God Making "unto" Himself, His OWN, Very Good and HOLY Family. )
• We get practice...by having children, and dealing with unknowns and known corruptions of this world, and use Gods examples and PRECEPTS, to teach our own children For the hope of outcome, they Become MADE very good, honest, forthright, / Holy.

One can not have a meaningful Relationship with an Other without Knowing and Trusting the other.

If you doubt God, or KNOW not How He communicates with mankind, or Which of mankind He does and Does NOT communicate with...you are already Lost...and need to Start over as a child, (NOT as and Adult with notions of requiring Understanding Before Simply Listening ).

Do not confuse...foreshadowing, prophetic fore-telling, and Come to pass. Keep the ORDER.

• The Son of man...Came to Earth, was born of a woman, hung on the Cross, Died, Rose up to Life, Returned to Heaven, Shall Return To Earth (with Power).

•He was Revealed (BY WORD), the Son, of God, the Christ (awaited Messiah), God in the Flesh, Holy, Without Sin...etc.

• Men according to "their personal Beliefs", and great measures of Faith-FULLNESS (they have received From God, (for their willingness to Continue Hearing/reading/ committing TO God) ...."call Him "those things"...
• Yet they HAVE NEVER, Seen God, Gods Shape, not heard his audible Voice....
(John 5:37)
• BUT HAVE experienced "Gods Faithfulness"...IN Blessings, Answers, Understanding, comfort, etc. (despite a World full of deceptive men).
• men CALL Jesus God, Christ, Etc...Because that IS what they Believe, yet have Only Seen the Son of man.

Put yourself in proper Order.
Word Search- "Son of man"...SEE What and Who THAT is....and WHO Returns...that Every eye CAN SEE Him...(it is the Same That God SENT Before...in a Fashion and Likeness that men Before could SEE.)
The Word of God (returning With Power), in the Likeness as an Earthly man.

Phil 2:
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Matt 16:
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory (power) of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
[28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I do not know you, or your standing, in Belief or Doubt.
Do not Trust me...as my intent is to impress, For you to examine yourself over the course of your own life, and the seek the Word of God according to His ORDER and WAY, bit by bit.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[ChristisGod]

I wasn't trying to define what binds Jesus and the Father .. though that is an interesting idea. I was stating how the Trinity defines what binds Jesus to the Father.

How those who live Jesus do not accept the Trinity ?? accept what ? what should folks accept .. the vast and overwhelming majority do not know what the Trinity is/means - including yourself... otherwise you would have better understand my post which answers the question you pose.



I address your specific question in my previous post ?!

A) "Of the same substance" - Homoousios
B) 3 different substances 3 Hypostasis

The Trinity states that there are 3 different substances - but all are of the same substance.

Well initially it was just Jesus and God that were of the same substance in 325 AD -- the HS came in later as did the 3 different Personages - which is a natural progression but important distinction.

So .. the 3 are connected - but each have distinct personalities - are compartmentalized from each other - one knows things the other doesn't - but they all share a common base of knowledge as well.

In Greek Religious Philosophy - cosmology - there are only two kinds of substances 1) that which God is made of 2) that which everything else is made of. If you don't understand this .. you can not understand the Trinity - Full Stop. .. and how many people do .. did you ? .NO - the only reason anyone here knows this is because I told them.. get it .. got it.. good.

What the Trinity then describes is a unified source - a unified substance - the stuff God is made of .. Gia -- the source of all ability to control matter through force of will -

This is the Godhead. Within this Godhead - there are 3 different substances .. like protons - neutrons and electrons inside of an atom but in a different way than this simplistic description .

So out of this one substance - you have 3 different minds - .. or at least 2 different minds operating out of the same God stuff .. The substance has separated itself into 3 different manifestations - 3 different incarnations - 3 different emanations -

So that is what the Trinity States ... you then ask the question .. what is the nature of each ... "The Father" "Son" "Spirit"

With the Father/Son .. you had the whole procession debate -- does the Son proceed from the Father? and so on.

BUT - what does scripture tell us .. ? Scripture suggests that God is one - and that the Son is Subordinate to the Father .. proceeded from the father ..

So when this thing - this substance split into 3 - the Father came out first - and has different capabilities - than the Son. but even if you would claim they all existed like this for eternity - each one has different capabilities according to Scripture.

the gnostic speaks again you have no idea about the Trinity.

there is no splitting or emanations in the Trinity.

God is Immutable and the Trinity have the exact same Divine attributes - no difference between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

This will be the last time explaining this to you. Every Trinitarian will agree with my post, every Trinitarian Theologian will agree with this post.

From Dr John Piper- Theologian, Scholar

One God, Three Persons
The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.

Christianity.Com

We believe in one living and true God who is the Creator of heaven and earth; who is eternal, almighty, unchangeable, infinitely powerful, wise, just and holy.

We believe that the one God eternally exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and that these three are one God, co-equal and co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes, and worthy of precisely the same worship, confidence, and obedience.

Exactly what I have been saying all along in numerous posts.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Truther]

Why are you obsessed with saying Jesus wasn't good? Is that all you can think about? Only Satan's children say Jesus wasn't good!

I am not obsessed with it.

I put the verse of Jesus' saying that only God is good to see if someone can explain it.

I see that nobody can, so it is becoming clear that Jesus was saying that he is NOT God in the verse.

He is saying someone else is God aside from himself.

 

[Truther]

Ok, you're denying that Jesus was God. You're a heretic.

Oh, you see that Jesus was saying he was not God in the verse too?

Interesting, because I thought I was the only one that saw it.

 

[DaChaser]

I did a study on this passage yesterday and I wanted to share it with the group.

Colossians 2:9
King James Bible
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

Now read the Greek below on the present ongoing meaning of DWELLS . The bodily dwelling of Deity is permanent not temporary. The Incarnation was PERMANENT.

κατοικεῖ (katoikei)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2730: To dwell in, settle in, be established in (permanently), inhabit. From kata and oikeo; to house permanently, i.e. Reside.


8.2 σωματικός, ή, όν; σωματικῶςa: (derivatives of σῶμαa ‘body,’ 8.1) pertaining to a physical body—‘bodily, physical, bodily form.’[1] Louw Nida


Expositor's Greek Testament
Colossians 2:9. in Him and in Him alone.—κατοικεῖ: “permanently dwells”. The reference is to the Exalted State, not only on account of the present, but of the context and Paul’s Christology generally.—πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος: “all the fulness of the Godhead”. πᾶν is emphatic, the whole fulness dwells in Christ.

Body
sōmatikṓs (an adverb, derived from 4984 /sōmatikós which is an adjective derived from 4983 /sṓma, "body") – bodily(used only in Col 2:9)Loew & Nida Greek Lexicon

Never once in the NT is soma ever used of something nonphysical or immaterial .

Paul is talking in Col chapters 2-3 about the glorified resurrected Christ now seated at the right hand of God not the earthly Christ pre resurrection. This is a slam dunk that He is in a human glorified resurrection body and that He continues to have all the fullness of Deity dwelling bodily in the present.

Bodily (σωματικῶς) In bodily fashion or bodily-wise. The verse contains two distinct assertions: 1. That the fullness of the Godhead eternally dwells in Christ. The present tense κατοικεῖ dwelleth, is used like ἐστιν is (the image), Colossians 1:15, to denote an eternal and essential characteristic of Christ's being. The indwelling of the divine fullness in Him is characteristic of Him as Christ, from all ages and to all ages. Hence the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him before His incarnation, when He was "in the form of God" (Philippians 2:6). The Word in the beginning, was with God and was God (John 1:1). It dwelt in Him during His incarnation. It was the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth, and His glory which was beheld was the glory as of the Only begotten of the Father (John 1:14; compare 1 John 1:1-3). The fullness of the Godhead dwells in His glorified humanity in heaven.

2. The fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him in a bodily way, clothed the body. This means that it dwells in Him as one having a human body. This could not be true of His preincarnate state, when He was "in the form of God," for the human body was taken on by Him in the fullness of time, when "He became in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2:7), when the Word became flesh. The fullness of the Godhead dwelt in His person from His birth to His ascension. He carried His human body with Him into heaven, and in His glorified body now and ever dwells the fullness of the Godhead. Vincent Greek Word Studies


(2:9) Commenting on the contents of this verse, Lightfoot says; “The apostle justifies the foregoing charge that the doctrine was not according to Christ: ‘In Christ dwells the whole plērōma (πληρωμα) (fulness, plenitude), the entire fulness of the Godhead, whereas they represent it to you as dispersed among several spiritual agencies. Christ is the fountain-head of all spiritual life, whereas they teach you to seek it in communion with inferior creatures.’ ”


“Dwelleth” is katoikei (κατοικει). Oikeō (Ὀικεω) means “to be at home.” Kata (Κατα), prefixed, means “down,” thus showing permanence. The compound verb was used of the permanent residents of a town as compared with the transient community. The verb is in the present tense, showing durative action. The translation reads: “Because in Him there is continuously and permanently at home all the fulness of the Godhead in bodily fashion.”

hope this helps !!!

Revelation states that God will come down to us and tabernacle with us as the Light, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[Heyzeus]

God is not a god a man ".

Right .. so it was not God hanging on the Cross ..as that was a man hanging there - and God is not a man.

 

[Heyzeus]

! Go ahead, blasphemer!

You claim Jesus was talking to Himself and not to his Father. That's not a matter of <different perspective>, it is making God a liar. YOU, <<denied the Trinity>> with YOUR blasphemous <Doctrine> - YOUR blasphemous <<assumption of the story that it was God - "The Father" hanging on the cross>> You did not miss the part of the story that is was GOD THE SON, JESUS, WHO HANG ON THE CROSS AND SPOKE TO HIS FATHER CO-SUFFERING WITH HIM ON THE CROSS.

So this is your LYING BLASPHEMY <<it IS .. "The Father" hanging there>>.

Shame on you and stop trying to DECEIVE true believers that you are a Christian, because on strength of what you say here, you are a LIAR and blasphemer of the only true God Father Son and Holy Spirit.

You are the blasphemer here -one who desperately trying to deceive - and are projecting your failings onto others.

I did not claim that Jesus was talking to himself and not to his father.
Even if I had made such a claim - how would this make God a liar ?

Trinity doctrine states that it was "The Father" hanging on the Cross - So what then - you think the Trinity Doctrine is Blasphamy ?

Very confused you are.

I

 

[Heyzeus]

the gnostic speaks again you have no idea about the Trinity.

there is no splitting or emanations in the Trinity.

God is Immutable and the Trinity have the exact same Divine attributes - no difference between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

This will be the last time explaining this to you. Every Trinitarian will agree with my post, every Trinitarian Theologian will agree with this post.

From Dr John Piper- Theologian, Scholar

One God, Three Persons
The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.

More false accusations because you can not come up with a coherent argument - and so you default to falsehood and mumbling gibberish - projecting your issues onto others.

Trinity Doctrine and Scripture claims that there are differences between the Father, Son, and Spirit - so why are you shooting the messenger?

Don't blame me for your lack of understanding of your professed beliefs.

 

[ChristisGod]

More false accusations because you can not come up with a coherent argument - and so you default to falsehood and mumbling gibberish - projecting your issues onto others.

Trinity Doctrine and Scripture claims that there are differences between the Father, Son, and Spirit - so why are you shooting the messenger?

Don't blame me for your lack of understanding of your professed beliefs.

Look I gave you sources that agree with me and oppose you on the Trinity. This site agrees with me 100%. Look it up.

I do n ot need outside sources to defend or explain the Trinity. I can do it from Scripture ALONE.

you are incapable of it and use hearsay from unreliable sources.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Heyzeus]

In Scripture it is called a mystery.
In this world it is called a conundrum.

Scripture is Knowledge.
Understanding the knowledge, has Two facets;
• Understanding according To: men, philosophies, guessing, projections, interpretations, leadership teaching, etc.
• Understanding according according To God.

Of the Two facets:
• Any man can mindfully, make Logical Conclusions, that makes Sense. Believe their conclusion, Teach it, Preach that.
• Scripture itself teaches, Understanding according to God, comes from God.

You as well as I know the Facts.
Nothing IS Understood- in any facet, simply because an Introduction has been made.
A young child is introduced to hundreds of things. Say for example a light switch. They may learn if someone touches a switch, a light appears. Then learns the switch must be move, then light appears. But yet will be without understanding (if a bulb is burned out, a wire is loose, (the light does not appear) or how an electrical current works.

God is Unseen, Unheard By every Naturally Born man. <--- The Hearing did not Apply to Adam, who was Created, Not Naturally Born.
(And in saying Adam- Gods Creation - Adam from Dust OF the Earth, Called a man, and Female out of Adam, God called them Both by the Name Adam, and called them Both- Created AND Made.) Gen 5:1-2

Adam created out OF Dust OF the Earth- (NOT Alive, nor Dead) and Comprised of Elements OF the Earth (man's intended Habitat. Man's intended Habitat that sustains the life of this man. ---> in regards to the minerals and nutrients IN the Earth, is in a Body, and the Body requires to sustain its own Life, (which is its Blood).

The Creation is One part-
The Making is another part.
A man created of Dust, can do Nothing, until it is MADE ALIVE.
God IS LIFE. And A man who receives Life FROM God, Becomes MADE Alive.
And that is Where the SOUL, is entered into a man.
(All souls belong TO God. Ezek 18:4).
Men Name men. (As Adam named Eve) souls IN a man, are called Also by the man's name.)
Once a man IS Born- having received A Soul (Life from God).
It's Life, the Body's LIFE IS Blood.
The Souls Life, is Still Gods.
The Body...is designed with organs- to process The elements of the Earth (minerals / nutrients).
Also, nerves to give warnings to the Body, by touch, ears, to hear, voice to speak, eyes to see, emotions, etc. and a mind to think, figure, make Choices..."Between... this and that"...according TO...the Extent of the Knowledge he has learned, by hearing/seeing/trying/noting results.
• And there IS also the very Life central component to the Man, His HEART.
Functionally, the Heart is the source/pump, that Moves the LIFE (Blood of a man). Without the Heart pumping, Blood does not move. Blood that does not move, does not therefore sustain the LiFE of the Whole Body, (feeding it the necessary nutrients, minerals, ogygen).
• The Heart, is the Very source of Keeping a Bodys Life (Blood) Alive.
• A mystery is: while the Mind operates on Logical, make sense Guesswork...
The Heart has Thoughts as Well. I can not Explain that, but know my own experience, of Feeling, knowing something IS True according to my Hearts Thoughts, aside from my Minds Thoughts.
• Scripturally- the thoughts of the Heart- is Called "the spirit of man".
• why the complex two different thoughts of a man?
• To the best of my understanding-
IS a Mind can KNOW The Truth AND a Lie...
And "ACT" (speak) upon the the Basis of A Lie, which is INTENDED TO Deceive.
But the Hearts (spirits thoughts), is Truth, and Rejects, ACTING, upon a Deception.
(Some people's Minds may consider ACTING, on a Deception...but the Thoughts of their Heart...supersede...and they Choose to forego the Deception, AND its consequences, and Listen to the "spirit of their Heart thoughts OVER their Minds thoughts".)

CONTINUED-

I get what you are saying but - you don't really address the Trinity doctrine with other than "its beyond human comprehension".

The Trinity doctrine was not created by God - it was created by men.
You talk about building ones foundation on Sand .. pinning all one's hopes on man made doctrine is building one's foundation on sand.

Let us step back a bit and just look at right and wrong - good and evil - since you seem not to want to discuss the actual nuts and bolts of this contradictory doctrine.

Introducing this doctrine resulted in huge division within the Church - When the Church God power it started rounding up Christians and killing them - calling any who did not accept this new man made doctrine heretics. 400 years of killing Christians since this doctrine was introduced and it finally became the sole doctrine.

When the Church consolidated power things got even worse -- the 1000 years of horror then ensued.

I don't need to go through the plethora of abominations that came out of this time period - who has not seen the torture chamber - the most horrific the mind can imagine - which were kept in the basements of Churches.

Is this what Jesus desired - that places of worship devoted to God be turned into torture chambers ? Whats worse is when Christians today try to apologize for this horror - as if God is somehow to blame for this atrocity - that it was all part of God's grand plan.

The actions of the Church were "anti" the teachings of Jesus .. anti - Christ. These people were so deceived and things got so bad .. that the Pope started to go after not just Christians but animals .. the Pope declaring that Cats were demonic which resulted in mass killing of torture of cats in horrific ways.

I refuse to believe that this was part of God's grand plan.

 

[Heyzeus]

Look I gave you sources that agree with me and oppose you on the Trinity. This site agrees with me 100%. Look it up.

I do n ot need outside sources to defend or explain the Trinity. I can do it from Scripture ALONE.

you are incapable of it and use hearsay from unreliable sources.

hope this helps !!!

Your sources agree with me - your post agreed with me. You are the one that lacks understanding.

Both the Trinity Doctrine and Scripture state that there are differences between the 3 personages of the Trinity - and you stated yourself there were differences.

Clearly you are lost and have no idea what you are saying - contradicting yourself and contradicting doctrine.

Your attempts to defend the Trinity on the basis of Scripture was a complete failure - you ran and hid from passages that contradict Trinity doctrine - and have done little but name call and make false accusations ever since.

 

[ChristisGod]

More false accusations because you can not come up with a coherent argument - and so you default to falsehood and mumbling gibberish - projecting your issues onto others.

Trinity Doctrine and Scripture claims that there are differences between the Father, Son, and Spirit - so why are you shooting the messenger?

Don't blame me for your lack of understanding of your professed beliefs.

Just in case you doubt me this website- forum(christianityboard) statement of faith agrees with me 100% like I told you.

"The below clearly outlines the core, closed-handed, and Christian orthodox issues that we expect members of Christianity Board to uphold. We accept that this declaration essentially defines Christianity for Christianity Board. Disagreement with the below, we believe, places one outside the realm of reasonable orthodox Christianity.

We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a completely sinless human life and offered himself freely on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all, according to God’s plan revealed from the beginning. After three days, Jesus arose from the dead to demonstrate his power over death. He ascended to heaven to await his future return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-25, John 1:1-5, John 14:10-30, Acts 1:9-11, Romans 1:3-4, I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Timothy 6:14-15, Titus 2:3, Hebrews 4:14-15)

We believe that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son (Jesus). He is present in this world as an intercessor to make men and women aware of their need for Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer from the moment of salvation. He empowers the Christian with strength for living, understanding the truth, witnessing to others, and in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, John 16:7-13, Acts 1:8, I Corinthians 2:12, I Corinthians 3:16, II Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-21) "

end of discussion !

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

Your sources agree with me - your post agreed with me. You are the one that lacks understanding.

Both the Trinity Doctrine and Scripture state that there are differences between the 3 personages of the Trinity - and you stated yourself there were differences.

Clearly you are lost and have no idea what you are saying - contradicting yourself and contradicting doctrine.

Your attempts to defend the Trinity on the basis of Scripture was a complete failure - you ran and hid from passages that contradict Trinity doctrine - and have done little but name call and make false accusations ever since.

you don't even no the meaning of CO- EQUAL.

I've been debating every cult/ism over the past 4 decades on the Trinity and Deity of Christ.

nuff said............................................

 

[Heyzeus]

Just in case you doubt me this website- forum(christianityboard) statement of faith agrees with me 100% like I told you.

"The below clearly outlines the core, closed-handed, and Christian orthodox issues that we expect members of Christianity Board to uphold. We accept that this declaration essentially defines Christianity for Christianity Board. Disagreement with the below, we believe, places one outside the realm of reasonable orthodox Christianity.

We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a completely sinless human life and offered himself freely on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all, according to God’s plan revealed from the beginning. After three days, Jesus arose from the dead to demonstrate his power over death. He ascended to heaven to await his future return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-25, John 1:1-5, John 14:10-30, Acts 1:9-11, Romans 1:3-4, I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Timothy 6:14-15, Titus 2:3, Hebrews 4:14-15)

We believe that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son (Jesus). He is present in this world as an intercessor to make men and women aware of their need for Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer from the moment of salvation. He empowers the Christian with strength for living, understanding the truth, witnessing to others, and in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, John 16:7-13, Acts 1:8, I Corinthians 2:12, I Corinthians 3:16, II Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-21) "

end of discussion !

hope this helps !!!

Notice only one quote from the Jesus of Mark Matt - and that quote does not support the claim that Jesus/God are co-equal.

Matt 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

This passage contradicts the claim that Jesus is co-equal to the Father - someone has been lying to you - Hope this Helps.

 

[ChristisGod]

Notice only one quote from the Jesus of Mark Matt - and that quote does not support the claim that Jesus/God are co-equal.

Matt 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

This passage contradicts the claim that Jesus is co-equal to the Father - someone has been lying to you - Hope this Helps.

Every source I quoted is in agreement with the biblical and orthodox view on the Trinity which also includes the Creeds of Christendom on the Trinity and Deity of Christ. I'm in great company with the OT, NT, Jesus and the Apostles, Creeds and orthodoxy. You on the other hand are in opposition with all the above and MISREPRESENT the Trinity day in and day out and refuse to take correction for your deliberate misrepresentation which I have pointed out to you ad nauseam.

So I'm done explaining it to you since you refuse to listen.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Heyzeus]

you don't even no the meaning of CO- EQUAL.

I've been debating every cult/ism over the past 4 decades on the Trinity and Deity of Christ.

nuff said............................................

You keep claiming to have all this experience but, cannot come up with a coherent support for your claims - and then try to project your failings onto others. Perhaps you have been debating for 40 years - but in this time you have not learned the other side of the argument. The only way to be a good debater .. is to know what the best argument is on the other side is - and be able to refute it.

You don't even understand the terms you are using - never mind understand the argument from the other side.

It is you who does not understand the meaning of "co-equal" - and I who explained to you what the meaning was - using concepts you had never before heard of ... sure you may have heard the word "Homoousios" - but you have never known what this word means - in relation to 3 hypostasis of the Trinity.

Socrates stated that the terms hupostasis and ousia were being used as equivalents by Greek philosophers. It has been seen, however, that the terms come to achieve greater specificity in later Neoplatonism. The same thing happens in Christian theology. Origen (third century), while sometimes using the terms as virtual equivalents, does speak of the one God as monad, but also as a trias ("trinity") containing three hupostaseis, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Origen is also probably the first to speak of Christ as homoousios ("of the same substance") with the Father. (The Gnostics had already used this word, but in another context; see Stead, 1977, pp. 190–202.) Thus Origen posits for the Deity a unity of ousia, or "substance," as genus, but a triad of hupostaseis, in the sense of three distinct species (Wolfson, 1970, p. 322). It is this language that becomes standard in Greek trinitarian theology.

It is possible that the second-century Gnostic Valentinus "was the first to think of three hypostaseis and three persons [prōsopa; lit., "faces"], Father, Son and Holy Spirit" (fragment 9), but this statement may reflect a later terminology.

Hypostasis | Encyclopedia.com

So next time you want to go running around crying "Gnostism" - because you hear words like hypostasis or emanation or God head - know that this was also the terminology that the Early Church was using - as these terms came from the same source - Greek Philosophy.

You didn't know what the similarities are between gnostism and trinity doctrine .. or the differences between gnostism and subordinantism.

Time to up your game.

 

[Heyzeus]

Every source I quoted is in agreement with the biblical and orthodox view on the Trinity which also includes the Creeds of Christendom on the Trinity and Deity of Christ. I'm in great company with the OT, NT, Jesus and the Apostles, Creeds and orthodoxy. You on the other hand are in opposition with all the above and MISREPRESENT the Trinity day in and day out and refuse to take correction for your deliberate misrepresentation which I have pointed out to you ad nauseam.

So I'm done explaining it to you since you refuse to listen.

hope this helps !!!

Again you spew falsehoods - in this case one that was proven false in the last post - nothing in the passage from Matt states or infers in anyway that Jesus is co-equal to The Father.

So there is one of your passages that supports your claim ... you gave about 10 . how about giving just one that supports your claim.

Using Genesis is laughable - does not support your claim - rather it refutes your claim - as the "Sons of God" were clearly subordinate to the Father .. Just as the Son of God in the NT is depicted as Subordinate to the Father.

That you call subordinatism "Gnostism" is another example of your lack of understanding of the subject matter.

 

[ChristisGod]

You keep claiming to have all this experience but, cannot come up with a coherent support for your claims - and then try to project your failings onto others. Perhaps you have been debating for 40 years - but in this time you have not learned the other side of the argument. The only way to be a good debater .. is to know what the best argument is on the other side is - and be able to refute it.

You don't even understand the terms you are using - never mind understand the argument from the other side.

It is you who does not understand the meaning of "co-equal" - and I who explained to you what the meaning was - using concepts you had never before heard of ... sure you may have heard the word "Homoousios" - but you have never known what this word means - in relation to 3 hypostasis of the Trinity.



Hypostasis | Encyclopedia.com

So next time you want to go running around crying "Gnostism" - because you hear words like hypostasis or emanation or God head - know that this was also the terminology that the Early Church was using - as these terms came from the same source - Greek Philosophy.

You didn't know what the similarities are between gnostism and trinity doctrine .. or the differences between gnostism and subordinantism.

Time to up your game.

No one cares about your non biblical sources since Scripture is not secular ie of the world. Like I said the Creeds of Christendom. orthodoxy, the church and last but not least the Scriptures is my source for truth and everything else is secondary.

Like I said I defend the Trinity and Deity of Christ from Scripture as my primary source.

And stop kidding yourself as I can argue against the Trinity and Deity of Christ MUCH better than you can lol.

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

Again you spew falsehoods - in this case one that was proven false in the last post - nothing in the passage from Matt states or infers in anyway that Jesus is co-equal to The Father.

So there is one of your passages that supports your claim ... you gave about 10 . how about giving just one that supports your claim.

Using Genesis is laughable - does not support your claim - rather it refutes your claim - as the "Sons of God" were clearly subordinate to the Father .. Just as the Son of God in the NT is depicted as Subordinate to the Father.

That you call subordinatism "Gnostism" is another example of your lack of understanding of the subject matter.

BTW- subordination is relational and has nothing to do with the Divine Attributes of God or equality- co-equality.

Just as a wife is subordinate to her husband she is no less HUMAN than her spouse.

Just as the body of Christ submits to its leaders doesn't make them any less of a Christian. Both possess the same Spirit just different roles and functions within the church.

You confuse role with equality, subordination with economic(relational). There is no ontological subordination its relational( economic Trinity)

HUGE difference between the two.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Taken]

I get what you are saying but - you don't really address the Trinity doctrine with other than "its beyond human comprehension".

The Trinity doctrine was not created by God - it was created by men.
You talk about building ones foundation on Sand .. pinning all one's hopes on man made doctrine is building one's foundation on sand.

Let us step back a bit and just look at right and wrong - good and evil - since you seem not to want to discuss the actual nuts and bolts of this contradictory doctrine.

Introducing this doctrine resulted in huge division within the Church - When the Church God power it started rounding up Christians and killing them - calling any who did not accept this new man made doctrine heretics. 400 years of killing Christians since this doctrine was introduced and it finally became the sole doctrine.

When the Church consolidated power things got even worse -- the 1000 years of horror then ensued.

I don't need to go through the plethora of abominations that came out of this time period - who has not seen the torture chamber - the most horrific the mind can imagine - which were kept in the basements of Churches.

Is this what Jesus desired - that places of worship devoted to God be turned into torture chambers ? Whats worse is when Christians today try to apologize for this horror - as if God is somehow to blame for this atrocity - that it was all part of God's grand plan.

The actions of the Church were "anti" the teachings of Jesus .. anti - Christ. These people were so deceived and things got so bad .. that the Pope started to go after not just Christians but animals .. the Pope declaring that Cats were demonic which resulted in mass killing of torture of cats in horrific ways.

I refuse to believe that this was part of God's grand plan.

Gods plan to my understanding is:
Tell mankind about Him in increments - as they are capable to receive the knowledge (as we do with children)...and let Man make his own Feewill choices, and man be accountable, for his choices.

Justice Does NOT always prevail ON Earth, and Why we Notice Corruption.
God notices as well, and has His Own Consequences.

I am not familiar with all you precisely speak of. But Known A Church, leader, participants in exacting cruel and unthinkable acts toward people is not Gods Teaching...nor would I point a finger in Blame toward God.

As far as the Trinity. Some seem to infer they have a patent or copyright on that word...and their accompaniment of diagrams are Gospel.

The Prifix tri- as you know simply means 3
And unity- is as a unified bonded 1.

When we get to Revelations we find a whole Title..."Lord God Almighty".

Particularly-
[8] And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Was...since always
Is......presently
Is to come....expectation

Reviewing- baptizing in the Name of:
Father, Son, Holy Spirit...Again 3

Learning throughout Scripture-
God
• Associated with WILL, Desire, Idea, plan, -father, Spirit, Holy, Authority, etc.
Lord
• Associated with Word, Speech, Rabbi, Communication, Teaching, Annointed, Son Holy, Spirit, intercessory, Authority, Wisdom, Seed, Etc.
Holy Spirit
• Associated with Light, Power, Authority, Christ, etc.

In the Beginning of Scripture-
Gen 1:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said...

From the get go...we can comprehend The Wholeness of God in unity, in agreement, to accomplish His Will.

We see Gods Idea...Creation
His Power...Spirit
His Word...He Said

I have no issue, with Understanding One God, and the Wholness of Him to accomplish His Desire.

I believe in a similar fashion man is a Trinity, body, soul, spirit.... and man DOES a pretty common and standard terrible job of getting ones Body, soul, spirit in unison, agreement, and optimum coesiveness....
But BY and through the wholeness of the Lord God Almighty...I believe the whole Big Picture of Gods plane is To Make man in His Likeness, wholly Whole and Holy...Body, soul, spirit.

Not sure if this responds Properly to what you are seeking.

Glory to God,
Taken