Okay, I'm going back to Brother Mike's initial posting. I specifically kept out of this thread because I think the studies I've done on the subject have been pretty clear. If you don't agree with them so be it, but I see too many Holy Spirit claims to validate the words. Let me remind you that none of us have to walk around proclaiming that the Spirit speaks through us, because folks will know it when they see it.
I already see issues with this statement.
The ESV does a poorer job of this, but basically it's saying no man has seen the Father. Just like I Corinthians 15 illustrates, our bodies cannot handle God. We couldn't see God in all his glory, period. I really don't know how John being in the spirit means anything because if a moment is taken to examine what being in the spirit means in the Bible, then there's simply no way to connect this to a Rapture. The term harpazō is not used here.
What timeline, there's no logic to follow?
What shows you have no clue what you're talking about is your citation of Revelation 15:2 totally out of context. Look at Revelation 14 - which I will remind you that the Bible is often arbitrarily marked into verses purely for reference purposes - which talks about the 144,000, etc. If you agree with the rapture then clearly that takes place after the supposed rapture otherwise there's no adhering to the book of Revelation. You're citing a verse that is clearly out of context as proof.
I know Jerry has remarked that Christians need to study Systematic Theology if they're going to "preach" but I think the same applies to eschatology if you're going to make a case. We can go around all day long with this verse and that verse, but it's the fundamental error repeatedly made by rapture doctrine believers that picking a choosing verses that sound good will build a rapture argument.
Babel comes to mind here.
These statements totally ignore the obvious. Who is the Lord descending? (Why does the Lord need to descend to Rapture us anyway?)
I did another study on this topic, because there is a very clear timeline, the problem is that it's often ignored.
I think instead of a word-for-word reply, I'll stop here and simply say that so many are obsessed with the notion of physical death during the tribulation. Guess what? Fear not he that can kill the body but fear the one who can kill both soul and body. (To paraphrase.) What people don't understand is that sure physical death is good for Satan in many ways, it's the soul that both he and God are concerned with. Death is spiritual as opposed to physical. Notice that the Lord returns when the two witnesses and killed and then raised. That is the point where Satan oversteps his authority. Why are these lives valued more than others? Simple fact is they are not. It's not about the body, it's about the soul.
John in Rev chapter 4 was caught up in spirit to heaven. The throne room to be exact. This describes a transition from Earth to Heaven. His physical body was not there, but a body is just a body.
I already see issues with this statement.
John 6:46
not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.
The ESV does a poorer job of this, but basically it's saying no man has seen the Father. Just like I Corinthians 15 illustrates, our bodies cannot handle God. We couldn't see God in all his glory, period. I really don't know how John being in the spirit means anything because if a moment is taken to examine what being in the spirit means in the Bible, then there's simply no way to connect this to a Rapture. The term harpazō is not used here.
This makes sense, as we are then able to make sense of time lines.......................................... If the Church is with the Lord at this time, then everything else falls in place.
What timeline, there's no logic to follow?
What shows you have no clue what you're talking about is your citation of Revelation 15:2 totally out of context. Look at Revelation 14 - which I will remind you that the Bible is often arbitrarily marked into verses purely for reference purposes - which talks about the 144,000, etc. If you agree with the rapture then clearly that takes place after the supposed rapture otherwise there's no adhering to the book of Revelation. You're citing a verse that is clearly out of context as proof.
I know Jerry has remarked that Christians need to study Systematic Theology if they're going to "preach" but I think the same applies to eschatology if you're going to make a case. We can go around all day long with this verse and that verse, but it's the fundamental error repeatedly made by rapture doctrine believers that picking a choosing verses that sound good will build a rapture argument.
This event is clear. People who are alive on earth will be caught up. At this point we shall be with the Lord. This describes a transition much like John did, and Paul did. Jesus does not come to earth though, That is later and he comes with His people.
These are two separate events. One Jesus Gathers his people the other Jesus comes with people to earth.
This event would not make much sense if it is after the tribulation period. We still have to have the event with the Angels taking away tares.
The event of gathering of people the tares and the Wheat must have occurred after Jesus Catches up the Church in the air, because it is not the Lord that does this, but the Angels separate the tares and the wheat. The Tares and the Wheat not being of the Church Body. Jesus Himself comes to get His Church though, and the Wheat must be those that have overcome the tribulation period.
Babel comes to mind here.
These statements totally ignore the obvious. Who is the Lord descending? (Why does the Lord need to descend to Rapture us anyway?)
I did another study on this topic, because there is a very clear timeline, the problem is that it's often ignored.
I think instead of a word-for-word reply, I'll stop here and simply say that so many are obsessed with the notion of physical death during the tribulation. Guess what? Fear not he that can kill the body but fear the one who can kill both soul and body. (To paraphrase.) What people don't understand is that sure physical death is good for Satan in many ways, it's the soul that both he and God are concerned with. Death is spiritual as opposed to physical. Notice that the Lord returns when the two witnesses and killed and then raised. That is the point where Satan oversteps his authority. Why are these lives valued more than others? Simple fact is they are not. It's not about the body, it's about the soul.