The Rapture Lie

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HammerStone

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Okay, I'm going back to Brother Mike's initial posting. I specifically kept out of this thread because I think the studies I've done on the subject have been pretty clear. If you don't agree with them so be it, but I see too many Holy Spirit claims to validate the words. Let me remind you that none of us have to walk around proclaiming that the Spirit speaks through us, because folks will know it when they see it.

John in Rev chapter 4 was caught up in spirit to heaven. The throne room to be exact. This describes a transition from Earth to Heaven. His physical body was not there, but a body is just a body.

I already see issues with this statement.

John 6:46
not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

The ESV does a poorer job of this, but basically it's saying no man has seen the Father. Just like I Corinthians 15 illustrates, our bodies cannot handle God. We couldn't see God in all his glory, period. I really don't know how John being in the spirit means anything because if a moment is taken to examine what being in the spirit means in the Bible, then there's simply no way to connect this to a Rapture. The term harpazō is not used here.

This makes sense, as we are then able to make sense of time lines.......................................... If the Church is with the Lord at this time, then everything else falls in place.

What timeline, there's no logic to follow?

What shows you have no clue what you're talking about is your citation of Revelation 15:2 totally out of context. Look at Revelation 14 - which I will remind you that the Bible is often arbitrarily marked into verses purely for reference purposes - which talks about the 144,000, etc. If you agree with the rapture then clearly that takes place after the supposed rapture otherwise there's no adhering to the book of Revelation. You're citing a verse that is clearly out of context as proof.

I know Jerry has remarked that Christians need to study Systematic Theology if they're going to "preach" but I think the same applies to eschatology if you're going to make a case. We can go around all day long with this verse and that verse, but it's the fundamental error repeatedly made by rapture doctrine believers that picking a choosing verses that sound good will build a rapture argument.

This event is clear. People who are alive on earth will be caught up. At this point we shall be with the Lord. This describes a transition much like John did, and Paul did. Jesus does not come to earth though, That is later and he comes with His people.

These are two separate events. One Jesus Gathers his people the other Jesus comes with people to earth.

This event would not make much sense if it is after the tribulation period. We still have to have the event with the Angels taking away tares.

The event of gathering of people the tares and the Wheat must have occurred after Jesus Catches up the Church in the air, because it is not the Lord that does this, but the Angels separate the tares and the wheat. The Tares and the Wheat not being of the Church Body. Jesus Himself comes to get His Church though, and the Wheat must be those that have overcome the tribulation period.

Babel comes to mind here.

These statements totally ignore the obvious. Who is the Lord descending? (Why does the Lord need to descend to Rapture us anyway?)

I did another study on this topic, because there is a very clear timeline, the problem is that it's often ignored.

I think instead of a word-for-word reply, I'll stop here and simply say that so many are obsessed with the notion of physical death during the tribulation. Guess what? Fear not he that can kill the body but fear the one who can kill both soul and body. (To paraphrase.) What people don't understand is that sure physical death is good for Satan in many ways, it's the soul that both he and God are concerned with. Death is spiritual as opposed to physical. Notice that the Lord returns when the two witnesses and killed and then raised. That is the point where Satan oversteps his authority. Why are these lives valued more than others? Simple fact is they are not. It's not about the body, it's about the soul.
 

Brother Mike

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Thank you Hammerstone. A intelligent and thought out post to what I posted.

Looking at Rev 14 is the Lord coming in Clouds, the Angels with sickles........... You suggest that the sea of glass mentioned at start was not mingled with fire until the believers were taken?

I read it as just added information.

I based my study on Jesus and the Church. I could not find the Church mentioned as I stated.

I also looked at the ascending and descending issue...... Jesus coming in the clouds. I used Luke 21:36 because Jesus said Before the snare comes on the Earth. Prior to Rev 14, the gathering up, the saints in the trib where hurt as you said, Satan oversteps his bounds.

As for Jesus coming in the Clouds, one would think that a Rapture, he would not come in the Clouds, but this seemed to be the way he does come and go. Acts 1:11 John 20:17

We are also told we are caught up together in the clouds............ This seems the normal way He comes.

So, my study was based on Jesus and the Church.

I am going to study this more............. your points are good, but something about the Church not being moved out of the way does not sit right with me. It does not "Seem" right. Truly in my circles I could not even propose that their is no Rapture......Would not go over well. My hope is to get everything together and put everything in simple to follow order. I hope not to leave out things that prove my conclusions wrong. Everything must match.

I am having a issue with the anointed Church being here, and Satan able to do squat.........

This topic is now interesting to me, I have to thank you for that, though it gets some stired up..

Be Blessed.

Jesus Is Lord.
 

Martin W.

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Everybody ask themselves these questions:

1. Are there going to be dead Christians when Jesus comes back ? By dead , I mean departed Christians in the grave who have passed away already.

2. Will these deceased Christians be resurrected some day ?

3. Are there going to be living Christians when Jesus comes back ?

4. What happens to them ?
 

Brother Mike

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Everybody ask themselves these questions:

1. Are there going to be dead Christians when Jesus comes back ? By dead , I mean departed Christians in the grave who have passed away already. Yes.

2. Will these deceased Christians be resurrected some day ? Yes

3. Are there going to be living Christians when Jesus comes back ? Yes

4. What happens to them ? Caught up, to be forever with the Lord.

Now, HammerStone presented a Time line, around Rev 14................... I see one before. You see Martin that it will happen.

I am going to get it sorted. The best timeline chart I found does not support What I have found so far........Still a well done timeline though.
 

jerryjohnson

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Everybody ask themselves these questions:

1. Are there going to be dead Christians when Jesus comes back ? By dead , I mean departed Christians in the grave who have passed away already.

2. Will these deceased Christians be resurrected some day ?

3. Are there going to be living Christians when Jesus comes back ?

4. What happens to them ?

Those questions have been answered a number of times, have you read the answers yet?
 

Martin W.

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Read carefully Thessalonians.

As you do so , you will realize the issue is that the departed (deceased) Christians will miss out on the day of the Lord. At least that is what the (living) Christians were worried about at the time.

The author of Thessalonians clearly pointed out that the (deceased) Christians would not miss out on anything. Indeed they would be resurrected FIRST and then the living believers ARE THEN TRANSLATED to meet the Lord in the air in the twinkling of an eye.

While answering the question , the author of Thessalonians has given us a glimpse of what happens at the time for the living Christian as he (she) looks forward to the coming of their Savior. It sounds like a glorious occasion. It does not sound like tribulation. The great tribulation is for the non Christian.
 

Martin W.

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Approaching this whole subject requires systematic theology which is a fancy word for laying out every scrap of evidence for or against the different positions regarding the timing of the translation of living Christians.

And indeed they are just scraps of evidence scattered throughout scripture. Nothing is definitive , and no absolute answer can be determined.

The most we can do is make a best guess and nothing more. The best guess by competent scholars is that (somehow) Jesus preserves , protects , or removes his people during his time of wrath. He has a history of doing so. He always preserves "his people" , he never destroys them when he destroys the enemy.


It has already been stated that he will translate the living Christians. Do you have a problem with him doing it before he pours out his wrath on the unbelieving world. If so , Why ?
 

Brother Mike

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It sounds like a glorious occasion. It does not sound like tribulation. The great tribulation is for the non Christian.

That sounds correct Martin.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,


Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

If we are left here, I don't see much room to preach anything. Those not already written in the Book, will take the Mark. This is a time that we can not even concieve. My study was focused on Jesus and the Church...... His Church will not be here for any of it. Jesus is a faithful high priest.

While praying in Tongues I had two visions............ they where short. The Lord said behold, then time of the End.

The first one I was standing in a city at day time. Lots of the city was burning in places, and there were a few people running around in mass hysteria. A lot of the concrete structures were cracked, and I noticed a chain link fence that had actually melted in places. I wondered what happened. Then the vision ended.

The next Vision I was walking in a city. Downtown as I was where the sky scrapers were at. It was dark, and smoke was coming from several places all over the city. The sky was dark, and filled with smoke. I noticed the buildings had black soot on them, and some still smoldering. What struck me as real strange is that the city was empty. The vision ended.

Both these, the Lord gave me a glimps of what is to come. Whole cities had been burned or something. I did not sense that it was nuclear, but I was just trying to figure it out. What I did get was that whatever happened, it was wide spreading and not pretty.

There will not be a safe place. We do escape the wrath to come.

Jesus Is Lord.
 

jerryjohnson

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Approaching this whole subject requires systematic theology which is a fancy word for laying out every scrap of evidence for or against the different positions regarding the timing of the translation of living Christians.

And indeed they are just scraps of evidence scattered throughout scripture. Nothing is definitive , and no absolute answer can be determined.

The most we can do is make a best guess and nothing more. The best guess by competent scholars is that (somehow) Jesus preserves , protects , or removes his people during his time of wrath. He has a history of doing so. He always preserves "his people" , he never destroys them when he destroys the enemy.


It has already been stated that he will translate the living Christians. Do you have a problem with him doing it before he pours out his wrath on the unbelieving world. If so , Why ?



Let's see, did God take Daniel out of the lions den? no. Did God take the three Hebrew Children out of that fire? no! Is God mad at His chosen people? Do you think He could burn everything around them without even one hair being touched? Opps, no He has to fly them out of there, they gotta escape into the clouds. <_< :rolleyes:
 

Martin W.

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An exhaustive study of the bible from beginning to end , while pondering the question about what happens to the living Christian is an enormous amount of work. One or two evenings with a concordance and a King James Bible is not going to give you a proper answer.

Two years of systematic theology will not give a precise answer either.

For that reason I stand by my original comment that anyone who tries to claim to know the timing of the rapture is not telling the truth.

I am also referring to the people who claim to know WHEN IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

They are misguided and are not in a position to claim truth on this subject.
 

Brother Mike

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JerryJohnson:

Opps, no He has to fly them out of there, they gotta escape into the clouds.

bout time you came around......................Yes I agree, we fly up to the clouds...................

Now help me prove this to the others :)

Jesus Is Lord.
 

jerryjohnson

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An exhaustive study of the bible from beginning to end , while pondering the question about what happens to the living Christian is an enormous amount of work. One or two evenings with a concordance and a King James Bible is not going to give you a proper answer.

Two years of systematic theology will not give a precise answer either.

For that reason I stand by my original comment that anyone who tries to claim to know the timing of the rapture is not telling the truth.

I am also referring to the people who claim to know WHEN IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

They are misguided and are not in a position to claim truth on this subject.


No, your OP said nothing about rapture:

It is scriptural fact that one day there will be a translation of living Christians to meet The Lord in the air .

The exact timing of this event is not precisely clear.

Anyone claiming to know the timing of this event is not telling the truth.

I would not be able to answer that because there isn't a rapture. A Scripture student CAN discover the end. Come study with our group (see shoutbox for instruction)
 

HammerStone

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1. Are there going to be dead Christians when Jesus comes back ? By dead , I mean departed Christians in the grave who have passed away already.

I Thessalonians 4:15

2. Will these deceased Christians be resurrected some day ?

Sure, at the last trump. I Corinthians 15:51-52

3. Are there going to be living Christians when Jesus comes back ?

See I Thessalonians 4:15 and I Thessalonians 4:17

4. What happens to them ?

I Corinthians 15:52

As you do so , you will realize the issue is that the departed (deceased) Christians will miss out on the day of the Lord. At least that is what the (living) Christians were worried about at the time.

That's neglecting the given timeline of the seven trumpet blasts. We know from Revelation that there are seven of them and the Lord comes back at the 7th. Otherwise, this trumpet blast becomes some floating vacuum blast that is not explained elsewhere. That is entirely my point to my systematic eschatology comment. The aspect of it being difficult to work out is not a reason not to get a unified and well-studied view of the subject. It's pick this verse and that passage while ignoring the ambivalent ones. It's an easy cop-out to say "we don't know for sure." Christ said in Mark 13, "I've told you everything" so someone is missing something.

My ultimate goal is to have everyone read and know the Scriptures on the subject, but at the same time I will defend what I absolutely believe in the Bible. I don't put it out there in a study if I don't stand behind it. I don't make these posts after a night or two of study and I don't claim dreams and visions to validate what I say. Go check me out. If you believe me wrong, so be it. The Spirit identifies itself.

I am also referring to the people who claim to know WHEN IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

With all due respect, you seem to confuse time and timing. Matthew 24:36 is pretty clear on that. If it is read as no man knows the general timing, then why did Jesus waste his time giving us signs?

It's yet another form of "you don't have to really know this stuff" no matter how you couch it. I really, really abhor that notion because we don't tell folks "You really don't have to know what Jesus meant when he said believe on him."

I'm not trying to pick on you Martin or anyone in this thread, but I think this subject is all too neglected. Think about it this way. In that book we call the Bible, there is more written about the end than the beginning. There is far more written about prophecy than the gospels. I think this aspect is neglected on many occasions.

I can't speak for others, but I don't worry about a tribulation. I worry about Christians who've sat on the pews, done the "good work" and remained totally ignorant of Christ's promise to return as well as his instruction. I don't find it funny, and I don't really joke about it much. Again, there is a line for things and it just seems to create a tendency to rub it in the faces of others. Martin this really doesn't apply to you, but look at the conduct in the shoutbox tonight. Regardless of who started what and said what, it really speaks volumes when insults are met with more insults. It seems to me that some are as dense on the gospels as they are on Revelation. That's not something to be proud of. We all have our moments and I am not condemning anyone, but nothing hides malice, not even humor and sarcasm.

I'll close with this thought. IF we are not to be aware of the end time schedule, then why is Christ so intent upon warning us? The first words in reply out of Christ's mouth to the disciples were "Don't let anyone deceive you!" (Matthew 24:4). Seems a bit strange if it were all done and written in the books eh, or does Christ just say this for theatrics? Paul follows this up with the same urging in II Thessalonians 2:3. (Which he said, by the way, right after he declared "...by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, ..." - II Thessalonians 2:1) There is one return and one gathering when the prophetic verses are examined and allowed to speak in unity.
 

Martin W.

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While employing systematic theology studying this topic (the translation of living Christians) a person will keep in mind (many things) including the following:

1. What is the track record of The Creator when he destroys his enemies , and the enemies of "his people" . Does he leave his people in the turmoil ?

2. Pencil out having the living Christian go through the tribulation. How do the pieces fit ?

3. Pencil out having the Christian absent through the tribulation. How do the pieces fit ?

4. Is the end time tribulation focused on The Church vs. the World ..... or on Israel vs. the World ?


I have given a two second glimpse into how systematic theology works. The rapture topic requires a lot more than 2 seconds study before forming doctrine.

It is like a careful detective looking for evidence. A careful detective will accept evidence from both sides. The good investigator will not form an opinion until the available evidence leads him to an opinion. Even then it has to be proven.

The timing of the rapture cannot be proven .

The timing of when the rapture will not happen , cannot be proven.

The very best we can do is lean heavily on systematic theology and make a best guess . Historical best guesses done by scholars tend to allow that living Christians could very well be removed before God deals with his enemies.

God does not consider us as his enemies. Even though we sometimes treat each other as enemies debating this question regarding the translation of living Christians .
 

Martin W.

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Everyone please notice I have not quoted scripture . A lot of people in a weak position resort to quoting scripture to buttress their position. But often what they do not realize is that the scripture (in the bible) is usually addressing a completely different subject than the one the poster is trying to reinforce.

A person should not quote scripture that is used in an entirely different context than the doctrine being debated.

It is a common error that non-scholars make.


A scholar using systematic theology will take a long hard look at the trumpet judgments of Revelation.

The scholar will look long and hard to find the Church during the trumpet judgments.

At one point in the trumpet judgments , EVERY SINGLE PERSON on the face of the earth is accounted for. But the church is absent.

If the Church is absent on earth , it must be somewhere else.

We are the Church.
 

fivesense

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Jiggyfly:



I was going to go there.............. but decided against it. Funny great minds think alike.



ya, that has got to be the ticket....... Hammerstone did not like my so called counter though, but I did not expect him to.

I just wish certain people around here would be more alert though, and not try to get us to believe something that is not even there.

Such as using

except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Falling away is not the Church or body of believers. Someone (Not mentioning names) used this to make up the fact that the AC is reveled before the church is taken, when in fact this scripture is not talking about anyone taken.

Falling away is the same Greek, same term and meaning as used in Hebrews.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Both Greek words have the same meaning almost.

It's hard to wade though blantant beating up of scripture.

Thank you 6string

Jesus Is Lord.

Sorry Mike, look again. One is apostasia the other Heb 6, parapipto. Now what? You may do a quick word study with a concordance and interlinear, or ignore the fact that they do not mean the same. I suppose we could just generalize God's word, and say it means the same thing, that way no ones'accountable for what they said. O.K.?
fivesense
 

Christina

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To all Rapture supporters listen to your God are you all deaf

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Do you think you are a good enough christian to receive Gods seal if so why dont you belief him that you are not in danger only those without his seal

DO YOU HEAR DO YOU SEE YOUR GOD HAS PROMISED YOU HIS PROTECTION DO YOU CARE ENOUGH TO HEAR HIM?

Its God alone who protects you from tribulation its his seal that he puts upon your mind and your heart he never says he's going to take you anywhere he is going to seal you and Satan has orders he can not hurt anyone with Gods seal are you all so weak of faith you can not believe that promise to you. Do you realize this sealing is so imporetant God literally sends an angel to yell stop before the first trumpet sounds

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,


Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


this is your protection this is your insurance THE SEAL OF YOUR GOD


HOW DARE YOU ALL BELITTLE IT AND HIM WITH YOUR FAIRY TALES
OF FLY AWAY


Yeah go ahead with the insults now but it can not change Gods promise the only question is do you have enough faith to believe him or do you have to believe in fairy tales of men ....
 
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Brother Mike

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Great post Martin!!!!! Just Awesome...............


FiveSense:

Sorry Mike, look again. One is apostasia the other Heb 6, parapipto. Now what? You may do a quick word study with a concordance and interlinear, or ignore the fact that they do not mean the same. I suppose we could just generalize God's word, and say it means the same thing, that way no ones'accountable for what they said. O.K.?

No, I'll be accountable............

af-is'-tay-mee to fall away, become faithless

par-ap-ip'-to fall aside, 2a) to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander 2b) to error 2c) to fall away (from the true faith): from worship of Jehovah

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah Also used as forsake. Acts 21:21 to be in error according to Acts. defection from truth.


I used the KJV Fivesense, so my thought was the KJV stays very consistant with words like "Later rain" in this case falling away. So, you caught me in a KJV authoritive position.

The Words are different as that Parapipto would be someone that did walk in full truth but turned aside. The other apostaseeah may mean they did not hold the truth, or at least fully embrace it.

So, you are correct they do not mean the same, but both end up the same. defection from truth, which was my point. Falling away is a KJV version that leaves a sense that Paul was speaking of the AntiChrist first revealed then the falling away of the Church. Someone used that to prove a false point, which was my point.

Compare:

2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; KJV

Also note...............That day shall not come was added by the translators. Thanks to the KJV.

So, I was not messing up the scriptures on purpose, but your right, I should not have just generalized two different Greek Words.

Be blessed!!!!!

Christiana:

To all Rapture supporters listen to your God are you all deaf

HOW DARE YOU ALL BELITTLE IT AND HIM WITH YOUR FAIRY TALES
OF FLY AWAY

Sister I would seriously check into getting some medication, or at least go see someone that can help. I hope the best for you.




Jesus Is Lord.
 

6stringedsignseeker

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To all Rapture supporters listen to your God are you all deaf

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Do you think you are a good enough christian to receive Gods seal if so why dont you belief him that you are not in danger only those without his seal

DO YOU HEAR DO YOU SEE YOUR GOD HAS PROMISED YOU HIS PROTECTION DO YOU CARE ENOUGH TO HEAR HIM?

Its God alone who protects you from tribulation its his seal that he puts upon your mind and your heart he never says he's going to take you anywhere he is going to seal you and Satan has orders he can not hurt anyone with Gods seal are you all so weak of faith you can not believe that promise to you.  Do you realize this sealing is so imporetant God literally sends an angel to yell stop before the first trumpet sounds

Rev 7:2   And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,  


Rev 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.  


this is your protection this is your insurance THE SEAL OF YOUR GOD


HOW DARE YOU ALL BELITTLE IT AND HIM WITH YOUR FAIRY TALES
OF FLY AWAY  


Yeah go ahead with the insults now but it can not change Gods promise the only question is do you have enough faith to believe him or do you have to believe in fairy tales of men ....
these verses in no way disprove the rapture... do you think people who weren't saved won't follow Christ during the tribulation when they realize they were wrong in denying Christ? Those are the one that sealed by God. Also... I'd still like you to explain what I asked you about in a previous post if you could. where I asked you to explain your comment about, against God's nature. 
 
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