The Trinity definition
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Mattathias
Member
Who do you say “he” is? (Jesus thinks that’s an important question.)
Or, if you prefer Jesus himself to ask the question, “Who do you say I am?”
Thank you for that very considerate response, ...but, my stars Christophany, did you even remotely address my contention? You did the exact same thing that you have always been doing ever since I've read you first post on this subject matter, you have done nothing more but cited from where you get your proof-text. And, of course, I think that your hermeneutics are deplorable.
You have been, as all trinitarians, invariably unable to offer any insight into your conclusion. Most men can elaborate and exposit as to why things must be a certain way according to God's wisdom, and how such an implementation brings glory to Him. But, again, all trinitarian theology does is makes fools out of those who try to exposit such nonsense - they try to explain something to a potential convert, that they can't even understand themselves.
jaybird
Well-Known Member
- Feb 29, 2016
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i agree, "i am" could mean many things. so what is the book of John wanting us to think when they use this phrase? i think the end of John explains it so there would be no confusion:
John 20 30-31
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
the Christ, Son of the Most High, but no mention that Jesus is the Most High.
The exact same thing. The entire expression 'I am that I am' or 'I will be what I will be', is a concept, it is not an inherently divine title, nor a personal pronoun, obviously. Same in Hebrew 'ayeh asher ayeh', absolutely nothing inherently divine in these words, and they have been used by countless Biblical characters, as has ego eimi. There is a clear desperation here, Christophany, you are stretching things beyond what the context warrants.
But, according to you, this is God's wisdom and philosophy, as to why He felt it both incumbent and glorious to send Himself to Die for the sins of Man, in order to alleviate His own wrath. Whether you realize it or not, or are willing to admit it, all exegesis invariably elucidate God's wisdom and glory, ...or defame Him accordingly.
Why will you not proclaim this much in your trinitarian exposition?
Absolutely, ...not to mention the contexts in the multiplicity of areas that it is used, and the variety of characters that have used the expression.
And, even when they try to apply it to Exodus 3:14, grammatically it doesn't work, nor make any sense '...before Abraham was, YHWH...'. Therefore, in order to support their position, Jesus would've had to say '...before Abraham was, I am 'I am that I am'...' or '...before Abraham was, I am 'I am'...'
But, like you said, John summarizes the whole intent and grounds for his Gospel by proclaiming that Jesus is the Messiah, chosen to be the Son of God.
Thanks JB.
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You are jumping to dangerous and unwarranted conclusions. Like I said, Christophany, all that we exegete reflects on how we esteem God. We are philosophizing about God's Wisdom and Biblical attestation whenever we make exegetical conclusions.
You do have a lot of explaining to do, as we all do, whether you're willing to admit it, or not.
Jesus is called the following which can only be said of One who is God. No man has these Attributes period
Creator
Before all created things
In Him all things exist
the angels obey Him and are His to command
all heaven worships Him including the angels
the Alpha and Omega
The First and the Last
The Beginning and the End
The Only Sovereign and Lord
The Lord who is over ALL
There is salvation in no other NAME
King of Kings
Lord of Lords
Emmanuel
To see Him is to see the Father
He is Equal with the Father
All the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him
He is Sinless and Forgives all sin
He is the one and only sacrifice for all sin
All Scripture points to Him and is about Him
He sent the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit only testifies about the Son
Jesus brings remembrance of all things to His Disciples
He is with all who gather in His name
He has all power and authority in heaven and earth
He sustains all things by the word of His power
The Truth concerning the Son prevails for He is God Incarnate, God manifest in the Flesh, Emmanuel - God with us. All the fulness of Deity /Godhead dwells in Him.
hope this helps !!!
Creator
Before all created things
In Him all things exist
the angels obey Him and are His to command
all heaven worships Him including the angels
the Alpha and Omega
The First and the Last
The Beginning and the End
The Only Sovereign and Lord
The Lord who is over ALL
There is salvation in no other NAME
King of Kings
Lord of Lords
Emmanuel
To see Him is to see the Father
He is Equal with the Father
All the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him
He is Sinless and Forgives all sin
He is the one and only sacrifice for all sin
All Scripture points to Him and is about Him
He sent the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit only testifies about the Son
Jesus brings remembrance of all things to His Disciples
He is with all who gather in His name
He has all power and authority in heaven and earth
He sustains all things by the word of His power
The Truth concerning the Son prevails for He is God Incarnate, God manifest in the Flesh, Emmanuel - God with us. All the fulness of Deity /Godhead dwells in Him.
hope this helps !!!
One would question another's exegesis when their conclusion is absurd. This is just elementary reasoning.
You've seen Catholics justify transubstantiation from Scripture, or Reformers substantiate TULIP. It's not always who has more proof-texts that decisively denotes who has exegeted the support passages correctly, it is often the wisdom behind what they are concluding, and how, if possible, it glorifies God, that clarifies truth from error.
I am not wrong on this indispensable point.
On the contrary, God will hold both of us accountable for all our beliefs and professions while on earth, on Judgment Day. You will have one heck of a time explaining your god-man theory then - you won't even try.
Someone has defined Trinity and someone has defined Christian and then someone has concluded for God a negative final result for anyone else who has not effectively joined their club. Is their 'club' truly then the Body of Christ where Jesus is the Head? What does God expect from us? What does God require of us? Has some man also come up with the answers to these questions and decided that anyone who misses the mark as he has drawn it has missed God?
Fortunately for all of us seeing still through a glass darkly, but seeing, God is the One who draws any mark that ultimately matters and He is the One who renders any final judgment that matters in accord with His Word. Should we be shooting darts at each other or should we be striving to follow as the Holy Spirit leads us?
People can say that I am not, or that you are not, a Christian because we do not embrace all of their beliefs as our own, but what is that to me? What is that to you?
"Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me." John 21:21-22
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Indeed, he most certainly does separate in this way, as seen on this thread and many others. And they accuse me of denying my Christ, my Lord and Saviour as they speak on the other side of their same mouths saying my Saviour is also the Father and YHWH and his Spirit. Blasphemy I say! It is the devil work of confusion...and it is purposed to serve and separate the goats from the sheep indeed.
So truly, who possesses the anti-Christ spirit? Those that deny the Christ was born on earth as the Son of Man, who had and has today one human nature, whilst possessing access to the full divine nature of his Father.
My Christ is the chosen one from eternity past, chosen by his and our Father, YHWH our true, one and unequaled God. The same and only YHWH, the creator of the universe who then created his human Son at the appropriate time as his anointed one, his emissary and sacrificial lamb for all of us lost. He is the 2nd and last Adam destined and became our perfect sacrifice for our fallen state in sin.
These then are the anti-Christ spirited humans who brazenly dare to make my Christ a 3-headed monster, a heathen god for idol worship...judgment is coming indeed..Amen
APAK
Why did so many disciples turn away from Jesus and stop following Him ?
Why did Jesus say unless you believe I Am you will die in your sins ?
Why did Jesus say many who call Him Lord Lord that He will say to them I never knew you ?
Why did Jesus ask His disciples who do people say that I Am ?
What does is mean that Jesus is Lord and to count the cost before following Him ?
Why did Jesus and the Apostles warn us about false christs and teachers ?
Can a false christ or god save anyone from sin ?
Its sounds like many believe that a person can believe anything they want about Jesus and do anything they want to and still be saved.
Have you then really addressed what I have written?
"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." John 6:68-69
"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." John 17:15-16
If we cannot answer all of the questions you ask or that I ask are we lost without hope?
What is in our hearts? Is that not what God looks at rather than the answers to a multitude of questions? Are all, who are following the Christ studied theologians? If a person can never understand or embrace some kind of a Trintarian doctrine is he definitely lost then?
Is a person who reads only English lost because he does not understand the meanings in Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew? Is a person who had never read the original written texts also lost? [Considering that from what I have heard and read, we are all then in trouble since none of them still exist.]
Could it not be that they were too rich in themselves and in what they had learned in their own studies and in their formal educations?
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Matt 19:24
"But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first." Matt 19:30
"The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." John 20:25
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1
"And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:" Mark 12:41-43
"And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" Matt 14:28-31
Why did he begin to sink?
If our eyes are blind, what can we see?
"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25
Was the blind man lost in between touches?
One thought is that they were thinking that he spoke of cannibalism, but that is a carnal thought. Did not Peter without really seeing all of the details answer Jesus correctly?
"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." John 6:68-69
Why did he say or pray the following to his Father?
"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." John 17:15-16
If we cannot answer all of the questions you ask or that I ask are we lost without hope?
What is in our hearts? Is that not what God looks at rather than the answers to a multitude of questions? Are all, who are following the Christ studied theologians? If a person can never understand or embrace some kind of a Trintarian doctrine is he definitely lost then?
Is a person who reads only English lost because he does not understand the meanings in Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew? Is a person who had never read the original written texts also lost? [Considering that from what I have heard and read, we are all then in trouble since none of them still exist.]
Too busy with their studies, [yes, even Bible studies] to spend time with God?
Could it not be that they were too rich in themselves and in what they had learned in their own studies and in their formal educations?
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Matt 19:24
"But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first." Matt 19:30
What was Thomas' problem here?
"The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." John 20:25
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1
"And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:" Mark 12:41-43
Where should our eyes be?
"And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" Matt 14:28-31
Why did he begin to sink?
If our eyes are blind, what can we see?
"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25
Was the blind man lost in between touches?
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