The Trinity definition

[justbyfaith]

Your scripture you quoted here is sound and I do understood these verses completely. Although I believe you have overlooked or quickly skipped over a critical thought that makes this scripture suited for a new understanding and theory, not found in scripture.

Here is my understanding, explained by using an analogy, a knowledge that most can understand, who use electric power at home.

First though, let's define the the two key variables addressed in this scripture.

Let the spirit (lower case) be defined as a type of subordinate power, and the Spirit (Upper case) as the source of all power.

So similarly, the voltage, current and frequency of 100 - 230 volts, 10-300A @ 50/60Hz in the US, at your home, arriving via a step-down transformer, is sourced from the power grid.

And we know that we do not have the entire power grid at our home. We just have a portion of it, fed to us!

So likewise, we have ONLY the spirit of Yahshua within us, and the source of it emanates from the Spirit of YHWH. Yahshua is dependent on YHWH for life.

Yes, Yahshua is in YHWH and YHWH is in Yahshua per scripture, as our home power is in/part of the source power and in turn the source power is connected to that portion of power in our home. This is quite obvious. We are dependent on the power grid to serve our needs of electricity at home.

YHWH alone then, provides the spirit of Christ to us, into our 'home' into our heart.

Similarly, YHWH also provided the spirit of Elijah, as another type of power, different from Christ, to John the Baptist.

YHWH is the source, and the Father of all spirits per scripture, and can give any spirit he wished to any creature...


Bless you,

APAK

My point from John 4:23-24 and John 14:7-11 being that the Spirit of Jesus is the Father...even His human spirit/Spirit is YHWH. For there are not two S/spirits in Christ (Ephesians 4:4).

 

[101G]

101G said: ↑
now Mattathias, the scripture states that the "First" is WITH the "Last", correct... so is this two separate and distinct person... "the First", and the "Last?" Yes or No.... your answer please, and then we'll get to the next part of your post.
Mattathias said, No.

I'm glad you said that which is TRUE,

The speaker in Isaiah 41:4 is one person, not two separate persons.

Great, glad you said that too.

now in John 1:1 you said the Word is "WITH" God, is the SAME one person, is this correct? yes or no.

after your answer I have one more question. I'm just making sure.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[APAK]

My point from John 4:23-24 and John 14:7-11 being that the Spirit of Jesus is the Father...even His human spirit/Spirit is YHWH. For there are not two S/spirits in Christ (Ephesians 4:4).

I guess I did not make that clear then..I raced as usual....there are TWO spirits residing within Christ....there is the spirit of himself, his own human spirit, along with the source, his Father's spirit. This analogy I gave was not complete then...

The analogy and power once received to your home can be used independently for any use, although completely subjected to and dependent on the source...it/ he has limitations...Christ is not YHWH, he has limitations and subordinate to YHWH

We also have our human spirit and the spirit of Christ... TWO spirits....and we have even more severe and glaring limitations than Christ...we are DEPENDENT ON HIM, Christ, for our life and existence, for eternal life.

Using that same electric power analogy, let me extend to include all believers....believers are the devices attached to the outlets for life or energy...Christ is the source of power in these outlets, for us, for power in our homes and hearts...rushed a bit although I believe I made my point...

Done!

Blessings,

APAK

 

[101G]

there are TWO spirits residing within Christ....there is the spirit of of himself, his own human spirit, along with the source, his Father's spirit.

ok, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
now where did his NATURE, that is Equal with God, the Form of God come from?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

A brief teaching for those who do not understand or believe in the Deity of Christ and the Trinity

I did mention that during the baptism of Jesus, all three were present. Of course this in itself does not mean Jesus is God or the Holy Spirit is, but it is where we all start to understand. It is where it was first directly presented to us.
Scripture supports scripture and so we need to do a full study on Jesus deity and a good book to start with would be John - the the whole Bible supports His deity! Then we can do a full study on all scriptures pertaining to the Holy Spirit. I've done this and will share with you a brief meaningful summary of my findings.
Obviously if you don't believe Jesus is God, then the Trinity is meaningless.

Let's begin with Jesus and some basic facts.
He died for our sins _ all of our sins _ for all mankind _ for all times _ past, present and future. To do this one has to be God. Why? To know the sins of mankind for all time, you have to be omniscient. To erase all sins, you must be omnipotent and omnipresent. A mere man could not contain any more sin then his own and maybe sins of his family past down to him. We are talking about trillions of sins and becoming sin, then dying and resurrecting yourself. The spiritual aspect of His death and resurrection transcends the physical realm. So if Jesus was just a man like anyone else, He could not save anyone. Might as well turn to your own power to forgive yourself - which would be futile. This is why we refer to Jesus as the God/Man.
None of the prophets drew attention to themselves as if they were someone to believe in, have faith in, seek to be saved or know as their Messiah. Angels do not draw attention to themselves, they do not receive worship. Jesus received worship when he was born, received it during His ministry and throughout history as well. When the Pharisees pondered about who Jesus was, He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM" John 8:58. Jesus said He existed before Abraham but also made a reference to Exodus 3:14 where God told Moses, "Tell them "I Am" sent you." This was God's introduction, (the pre-incarnate Jesus), of Who He was and that He, the Savior would appear at a later time and fully reveal Himself. Moreover, God said to Moses, "The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you, ... " Ex. 3:15
To complete the "I Am" mystery years later, during Jesus ministry, He claimed:
"... I am the Bread which came down from heaven." John 6:41
"... I am the Light of the World ..." John 8:12
"... I am from above ..." John 8:23
" I am the Door ..." John 10"9
"I am the Good Shepherd ..." John 10:11
"... I am the Resurrection and the Life ...: John 11:25
"...I am the Way, the Truth and the Life ... John 14:6
"I am the Vine; you are the branches ..." John 15:5
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" Rev. 1:8 John identifies Jesus as the Alpha and Omega in Rev. 1:13-15
He claimed to the Jews, that "I am He", meaning the one all through your history, your Messiah, your Savior, that scripture spoke of. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those who sent you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" Luke 13:34
These are all obvious references to God. No mere man could claim any of these truths - Only God can.

Phil. 2:5-7 claims His deity.
"having this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond -servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

Isaiah 43:3 claims His deity.
"For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy one of Israel, they Savior ..."

He reiterates this here and that He alone is the Savior:
"I, even I, am the Lord: and beside me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:11

"I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King." Isaiah 43:15 Sound familiar? Was Jesus referred to as our King, the Lord?

What about being the Creator?
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Col. 1:15, 16 He is the Creator! In Him all things "consist", meaning are "held together". That means every atom in the universe is held together by His power.

Finally, prior to Jesus ascension into Heaven, He said, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." Matt. 28:18 Think about it, you have to be God to handle that, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

The Holy Spirit is God.
There are too many scriptures to cut and paste but I will give you a partial list of who He is and what He does:
He teaches, guides, counsels, leads, gives truth, hears, speaks, is all powerful (omniscient), searches all truth which means He has all knowledge (omniscient), is omnipresent - since billions are comforted by Him, bears witness to Christ and glorifies Him, is wise, gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, loves us, fellowships with us, sanctifies us, justifies us, convicts us of sin, edifies us, lives in us and we are sealed by Him.
Jesus said, "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." John 14:16
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." John 14:26
"He," (ekeinos), the emphatic pronoun, points to a person. Personification is not used here or anywhere else concerning the HS.
The Spirit of God, is God. These two verse equate the Holy Spirit and God.
"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 1 Cor. 6:19
"What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people." 2 Cor. 6:16

In the following verses, more support is given. The Holy Spirit dwells in us, the Father dwells in us and Jesus dwells in us.
"in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. Eph. 2:22
"so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,"
Eph. 3:17
"Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him." John 14:23

Jesus claimed the Father was in Him as He is in the Father, Who will be in us as well.

Here are more verses that equate Jesus living in us, equating Him to God and the Holy Spirit:
Rom. 8:10; Gal.1:15-16, 2:20, 4:19; Eph. 3:17; Col. 1:27; 1 Thes. 1:10

"elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 1:2 NKJV >>> Three persons, ONE GOD!

"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," Matt. 28:19

Capisce?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This is the prerequisite or required qualification for salvation ...

So you would agree that the prerequisite lies in God's hands for the individual, within His plan for that person?
Each person requires God's guidance towards the Word, along with lessons in life, seeds planted by others, invitations, events, all are orchestrated by God and therefore would be different for each individual. Some may take a lifetime and some are saved early on. Let's say a person believes in Jesus, everything he said, yet cannot conceive that He is God, misses some crucial truths or maybe He believes He was a created being or didn't really rise from the dead. God works with that person. As he grows to understand many other doctrines in the Bible, he is drawn to them, they interest him and give him hope. He applies these principles to his life, yet is still adamant about His deity. So God continues to cuddle him along until an appointed time when more enlightenment occurs - if He is one of His sheep. All along, this person may not show fruit, his apparently witness to others or attempts in evangelism go out empty, but God moves him along. Apparently this person is stubborn and is not ready yet.
Just prior to his death, when he is weak, no longer the ruler of his destiny, no longer in control, but knows his days are numbered, God finally gets his attention and saves him. So even with the most offensive and sinful deeds committed, even believing distortions and lies about Jesus, this person is still redeemable because it is the Grace of God and His power to do so. We therefore cannot invalidate anyone's belief - God is not done with them until they are dead! But to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, is the unpardonable sin. And this of course is to say that He is Satan. The Pharisees accused Jesus of healing by Satan's power. That was it for them -- bye, bye. I always wondered if by saying that the Holy Spirit is not a person, but just a force and not God, would be crossing that line???

 

[101G]

the Deity of Christ is not in question of me, but the understanding of his Deity

Jesus claimed the Father was in Him as He is in the Father, Who will be in us as well.

that is true, as to what APAK said, "there are TWO spirits residing within Christ" now, I'm after the understanding of these statements. because, Philippians 2:6 states, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

being is a present tense designation, and the "Form" of God is his NATURE. now @Ronald David Bruno, and @APAK can either of you explain how our Lord Jesus NATURE that is "equal" with God's Nature/whom one say is the source, and yet is a separate person, or as APAK say two Spirit within Christ.

but to both, please note, God, who is Spirit have no equal, please remember that.

I'll be looking for both of your asnwers.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Jane_Doe22]

A brief teaching for those who do not understand or believe in the Deity of Christ and the Trinity

For the record: one disagreeing with the Trinity doesn't equate to not understanding it. I myself have made a very thorough study of the Athanasian Trinity. I still disagree with it, as previously detailed, but that's not due to lack of studying.

 

[101G]

I quess the question asked in post #429 is to complicated?
well, lets make it simple. "how can a spirit be "equal" with it's source, when the source has no EQUAL".

and if the spirit is "Equal" with the Source how can it be separate and distinct, when the source has no equal ?

maybe that can help to make things simpler.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[justbyfaith]

For the record: one disagreeing with the Trinity doesn't equate to not understanding it. I myself have made a very thorough study of the Athanasian Trinity. I still disagree with it, as previously detailed, but that's not due to lack of studying.

It's due to what is spoken of here:

1Co 2:13, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Mattathias]

now in John 1:1 you said the Word is "WITH" God, is the SAME one person, is this correct? yes or no.

Yes. The person John is writing about in John 1:1 (the Father) is the same person (the Father) who is speaking in Isaiah 41:4.

 

[justbyfaith]

We also have our human spirit and the spirit of Christ... TWO spirits....

Nope (see 1 Corinthians 6:17).

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

the Deity of Christ is not in question of me, but the understanding of his Deity

that is true, as to what APAK said, "there are TWO spirits residing within Christ" now, I'm after the understanding of these statements. because, Philippians 2:6 states, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

being is a present tense designation, and the "Form" of God is his NATURE. now @Ronald David Bruno, and @APAK can either of you explain how our Lord Jesus NATURE that is "equal" with God's Nature/whom one say is the source, and yet is a separate person, or as APAK say two Spirit within Christ.

but to both, please note, God, who is Spirit have no equal, please remember that.

I'll be looking for both of your asnwers.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I use about seven different versions of the Bible, but one that I use most is the NASB
"who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped," Phil. 2:6 means that Jesus knew that man would not grasp this concept of being equal with God. I believe it but still don't entirely grasp it. *** I explain this in my study I offered. As for APAK's claim of two spirits residing in Christ, I would have to say that this is not full grasp of the concept either.

We know in part, but not fully.

 

[101G]

Yes. The person John is writing about in John 1:1 (the Father) is the same person (the Father) who is speaking in Isaiah 41:4.

Good, thank you, now my question, since you said the Word is the same one person, the Father, the Father/Word was made flesh, per John 1:14. now he who was made flesh was G2758 κενόω kenoo while in that flesh. so explain how the Father was G2758 κενόω kenoo and the world still was upheld.

will be looking for your answer.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[101G]

I use about seven different versions of the Bible, but one that I use most is the NASB
"who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped," Phil. 2:6 means that Jesus knew that man would not grasp this concept of being equal with God. I believe it but still don't entirely grasp it. *** I explain this in my study I offered. As for APAK's claim of two spirits residing in Christ, I would have to say that this is not full grasp of the concept either.

We know in part, but not fully.

I must disagree with that meaning you gave of Phil 2:6, for the term "Form" is NATURE and we can grasp it, according to Romans 1:19 & 20 so I cannot buy the excuse we cannot "grasp" his equality with God, the answer is right there in Phil 2:6 itself.

just root out the defeinition of G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n. and one will get their answer as to how our Lord Jesus nature is "EQUAL" with God nature.

that term "with" is hot both here and in John 1:1. if one get the understanding of "with", it'll solve all the Godhead questions.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[DNB]

John is unique in doing this precise, succinct portability in the use of words and phrases that he repeats to convey more than one meaning. You have brought up a key point here that many, and many scholars, just pass by or omit...excellent

...agreed, very characteristic of John!
Thanks!

 

[Mattathias]

Good, thank you, now my question, since you said the Word is the same one person, the Father, the Father/Word was made flesh, per John 1:14. now he who was made flesh was G2758 κενόω kenoo while in that flesh. so explain how the Father was G2758 κενόω kenoo and the world still was upheld.

will be looking for your answer.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

The human person (Jesus of Nazareth) who pre-existed notionally in the Father’s logos became flesh.

John 1:1 - God is one person, the Father.

John 1:14 - The human person (Jesus of Nazareth) who existed only in God’s logos is brought into existence.

John is writing in his prologue about the creative word of the Father. He first points his readers back to the old creation, then points his readers to the new creation.

 

[APAK]

ok, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
now where did his NATURE, that is Equal with God, the Form of God come from?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I believe I discussed this with you over a year ago now. and this query in particular in my last posts...

First off, there are two or three competing versions of this particular verse you have presented. The one you presented maybe surprising to you, is not the most popular verse, regarding Phil 2:6b.

Here's another Phil 2:6 version.

NIV....Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage

and another, the most popular....who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

This is the most popular version and I believe is more precise...that Christ existed..never even thought of considering himself equal with his Father...He never did because he knew he was not equal at all....it clearly contradicts the version you presented...

Anyway for the discussion to continue let me use 'your' form of Phil 2:6 then for your benefit.

It can take much text to arrive at the following points..

In short then, the 'form of YHWH' means the external mosaic character of YHWH imprinted on his Son, Yahshua. His Spiritual impact and influence on Yahshua is only in the external sense. Yahshua was not born as one human spirit to be somehow later and incredibly consumed or permanently altered to become the Father, as the Spirit it/himself.

Using that power electric analogy I just used, it would be like saying that the power grid extended a part of its potential power to form an independent power source and then upon its completion/ activation (conception and birth) this extended portion of power BECAME THE POWER GRID ITSELF, the entire Spirit, and consumed all the available power. As if Christ and his Father changed roles or became the same thing. Makes no sense at all.

Yashua took on the personality or traits of his Father, as with voice, sayings and words, mannerisms and actions..he was the physical and MENTAL expression of his Father, not actually being his Father. It sounds silly I have to add that in...

And so having this unique human personality, he felt as though he could say or even believe he was equal with his Father as he completely represented him in many ways - not in ALL ways. He though never did say he was his equal. A fine and all important point to mention here.

As a prince has the authority, direction, authority and characteristics of his King, the prince believes that he speaks as the King, in his stead with his power and authority. He can also believe he is the King whilst the Father is not present (physically). We know otherwise with the Spirit, it is always present.

The key point is that the prince is not truly the King and Christ is not the Father of all, of all spirits in the Kingdom or in creation. Christ and his Father are two different spirits where the lesser one was Created by the King and he is Spirit we call the Father. Yes, the lesser spirit definitely has traits as the Spirit although we cannot leap to the conclusion and say they are exactly the same (S)spirit. Believing this, will surely place confusion and place one in a corner, regarding scripture study and interpretation from that point forward...and a skewed picture of both YHWH and Yahshua will surely ensue.,,and does, committed by many today.

We cannot say we are Christ because we are becoming like him and even act somewhat like him in our everyday life because we possess his spirit. We partake of the divine only because Christ partakes of the divine FIRST, of the divine Spirit himself, the source of all life and power...Amen

APAK

 

[DNB]

so we can take this as you cannot answer the question, nor reprove what we asked. thought so...

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

No, we take this to mean that you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. Can you not even tell the difference?

 

[101G]

The human person (Jesus of Nazareth) who pre-existed notionally in the Father’s logos became flesh.

pre-existed in the Father?, is not his word him? is not of God is God? yes or no.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"