Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us

[BarneyFife]

Now do you teach sinless perfection

How many do you think are acceptable?

 

[BarneyFife]

Only those of whom the Father has given to Christ . . .

John 6:37 KJV - "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Now, if we would do our part and begin spreading the good Word instead of arguing with each other, here . . . well, that would be wise.

Which good word should we spread? Shouldn't be too hard. There are only about 750,000 in an English Bible.

 

[mailmandan]

Now you're just imagining stuff. Why not respond directly?

i’m busy at work right now and don’t have time to give detailed explanations at the moment. Here is a link to an article that may help clear up your confusion about the sabbath.

The Sabbath & Sunday

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Look brother, if you don't respect me as a brother, then respect me as a fellow human being. I don't mind it when people find errors in my judgment, but your answer is both offensive and lazy. Defend your statement or I will consider you an enemy.

Sad, isn't it? This level of hatred at a Christian website is just wrong. We are supposed to Love one another with Love that comes from Christ.

Have we been issued the Love that comes from God? Is it within us? Or, is our father [still] the Devil?

1 Timothy 1:14 NLT - "Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He filled me with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus."

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Which good word should we spread? Shouldn't be too hard. There are only about 750,000 in an English Bible.

Why would you write that? Are you taking this Faith seriously, or is this a game to you?

 

[BarneyFife]

i’m busy at work right now and don’t have time to give detailed explanations at the moment. Here is a link to an article that may help clear up your confusion about the sabbath.

The Sabbath & Sunday

Gee, thanks for the link to exadventist.com. I would never have thought to go there to look for Sabbath-decrying articles.

 

[BarneyFife]

Sad, isn't it? This level of hatred at a Christian website is just wrong. We are supposed to Love one another with Love that comes from Christ.

Have we been issued the Love that comes from God? Is it within us? Or, is our father [still] the Devil?

1 Timothy 1:14 NLT - "Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He filled me with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus."

"This level of hatred?" Oh yeah, I'm just full of hate. That's why I get on here and answer the same mind-numbing questions day after day. Sorry I'm not all marshmallows and fur.

Why would you write that? Are you taking this Faith seriously, or is this a game to you?

I'm totally serious. Who decides what the "Good word" is?

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Let us assume that your two Nations are actually the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan into which we were all born. What you are suggesting is that the laws of God's kingdom that He was introducing into a world steeped in idolatry and rebellion was only for one small favored segment. Were those laws just for them, or were they given to them with the intention they shine a light as to the grace and love of a merciful and just God whose laws are an expression of His character, and are
KJV Romans 7:12
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Yes, The law served more than one purpose as you suggest. In his epistle to the Galatians, Paul wrote that the law served as a tutor and a guardian. From this we learn that the Law is pedagogical. That is, the law contains wisdom, not only teaching us righteousness and goodness, but teaching us holiness also.

Many of the Jewish laws are intended to give expression to righteous sentiments and model righteous values and concepts. Consider for instance, God's law concerning the mixing of cloth. This law illustrates purity, and from this we understand important concepts like "unmixed", "unalloyed", "unadulterated," "clarity", "simplicity", "single-mindedness", "virtue", and related concepts. The law dictates that the Jewish people model those concepts and virtues, employing a religious practice. This practice is a Jewish obligation, not a Gentile obligation. However, just because the Gentiles are not prohibited from mixing two kinds of cloth; they are still obligated to behave in purity, with single-mindedness, and all the other related virtues. Gentiles are obligated to emulate and practice God's moral vision, even though they are not obligated to give expression to that vision with the prescribed Jewish, ritualistic, practices.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If it applies to Paul after the Cross, then what else could it be? Use your head, "Brother."

Paul was speaking as a Jewish person. He was meditating on the commandment against coveting and once he fully understood the commandment, he realized that he was breaking it all the time. And worse yet, he could never obey it.

But this is not proof of your claim that the Ten Commandments are a universal moral imperative. In fact, the commandment concerning the Sabbath Day is unique to the nation of Israel as it says in the book of Exodus and Deuteronomy. Keeping the Sabbath day is a covenant between God and the nation of Israel. Exodus 31:16

 

[CadyandZoe]

Look, "Brother," I come from a time and place where respect must be earned. My answer is both comprehensive and concise. And you may consider me any way you see fit.

Well then, you came from a bad time. Your poor upbringing is no excuse.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The scripture tells you when the law is weak... You quoted it... Then you say "it occurs to you etc etc? That it's weak because it's a law? And then in order to justify this "weakness" you invent a straw man that those who observe Sabbath are watching footy all day???
Like I said in a previous post. Inventing arguments to avoid obedience. You post is a classic example. Now I understand why @BarnyFife said "sightly imaginative nonsense".

I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you clarify your objection?

 

[mailmandan]

How many do you think are acceptable?

It’s not about sin being acceptable, yet do you believe that you live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time?

 

[BarneyFife]

Paul was speaking as a Jewish person.

So the law only points out adultery/fornication to the Jew. Got it.

But this is not proof of your claim that the Ten Commandments are a universal moral imperative.

Some people seem to need a lot more proof than others.

In fact, the commandment concerning the Sabbath Day is unique to the nation of Israel as it says in the book of Exodus and Deuteronomy.

Unique, perhaps, but not exclusive.

Well then, you came from a bad time.

Brilliant. The genetic fallacy strikes again.

Your poor upbringing is no excuse.

Insults. To my parents, yet.

 

[BarneyFife]

It’s not about sin being acceptable,

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what it's about.

yet do you believe that you live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time?

Who ever suggested such a thing (the straw man rears its ugly head again)? No one has ever lived a perfectly sinless life, but Christ (except for the cognitive dissonants who actually believe He broke the Sabbath).

So what?

 

[mailmandan]

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what it's about.

The straw man argument continues.

Who ever suggested such a thing

(the straw man rears its ugly head again)? No one has ever lived a perfectly sinless life, but Christ (except for the cognitive dissonants who actually believe He broke the Sabbath).

I have actually heard certain people teach this. What they claim is after their alleged conversion, from that point on have never sinned again. Ridiculous of course. Glad to hear that you agree with me that nobody has lived a sinless, perfect life, except for Jesus that is.

 

[BarneyFife]

The straw man argument continues.

So how much sin is acceptable, then?

 

[mailmandan]

So how much sin is acceptable, then?

Like I already said, sin is not acceptable, yet we are not sinless 100% of the time either. (1 John 1:8-10)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy,
As I was reading this thread the following passage came to my mind,

Romans 8:1-4
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

It occurred to me that one way the Law is "weak" is the very fact that it IS a law. That is, the law is weak in two ways: 1) all it can do is condemn, and 2) it remains outside the soul, outside the inner man. For instance, if I rest every Saturday, but watch football all day, am I really "remembering the Sabbath Day?" This seems to miss the point entirely. Is God really into religious observance or perhaps he cares more about my heart, my mind, my soul? Maybe "keeping the Sabbath Day holy" is more about faith, and internalizing the truth about the Sabbath day, rather than taking time off work to rest. As long as Sabbath observance remains a "Law" rather than an internal commitment to the truth of that glorious day, that particular law remains "weak" and ineffective.

Comments?

p.s. hang in there brother.

Yes, very astute of you. It isn't the performance, as such, but the attitude, I think? How could God need me to not do things on a Saturday? How can He be concerned that I relax in my easy chair all day?

On the other hand, I could see how He is concerned that we maintain the right attitude towards everything I do, to rest when my body needs it, to work when I need to make money, and to be honest in my business.

The Sabbath Day, under the Law, was indeed about attitude, in my view, and not God's concern with work as such. After all, the other 6 days Israel worked and God wasn't bothered by them working.

So it was all about responding to His word at the right times, which in effect is prioritizing God's will in each individual situation. It isn't a code book that we must conform to, any longer, but it's about learning how to conform to the Author who wrote the code book. If the Author doesn't need the code book any longer, he's still concerned that we do things His way!

That's a wonderful verse you quoted, brother, and I've long wanted to understand clearly the basis of our own justification. Jesus did the legal part, which is to fulfill the code book. He fulfilled the legal code perfectly, which perfectly justified his flesh, which was sinless.

The code book required a perfect satisfaction for sin. A sinless man had to show that he was sinless, and forgive all sin committed against him. Then he qualified to forgive us our sins, and to give us his spiritual life. He met the conditions of the code book to give us eternal life, not by our flawed flesh, but by his perfect flesh.

Our part is simply to live by his Spirit, and to regularly dismiss the temptations of the flesh. This is our justification--not perfection, but a simple choice to live in Christ's Spirit. He met the needs of the code book, so that the code book is no longer needed, and no longer in operation.

What is in operation is our need to satisfy the One who wrote the code book. And that requires that we live by His Spirit.

So both needs are met to provide our justification. The code book is completed by Christ qualifying to give us his spiritual life. And we are able to live by his Spirit, and to void the thing that Christ has successfully voided legally--the flesh. We are not trying to lead a perfect life in the flesh--we are simply trying to avoid living in the flesh.

 

[BarneyFife]

Yes, very astute of you. It isn't the performance, as such, but the attitude, I think? How could God need me to not do things on a Saturday? How can He be concerned that I relax in my easy chair all day?

On the other hand, I could see how He is concerned that we maintain the right attitude towards everything I do, to rest when my body needs it, to work when I need to make money, and to be honest in my business.

The Sabbath Day, under the Law, was indeed about attitude, in my view, and not God's concern with work as such. After all, the other 6 days Israel worked and God wasn't bothered by them working.

So it was all about responding to His word at the right times, which in effect is prioritizing God's will in each individual situation. It isn't a code book that we must conform to, any longer, but it's about learning how to conform to the Author who wrote the code book. If the Author doesn't need the code book any longer, he's still concerned that we do things His way!

That's a wonderful verse you quoted, brother, and I've long wanted to understand clearly the basis of our own justification. Jesus did the legal part, which is to fulfill the code book. He fulfilled the legal code perfectly, which perfectly justified his flesh, which was sinless.

The code book required a perfect satisfaction for sin. A sinless man had to show that he was sinless, and forgive all sin committed against him. Then he qualified to forgive us our sins, and to give us his spiritual life. He met the conditions of the code book to give us eternal life, not by our flawed flesh, but by his perfect flesh.

Our part is simply to live by his Spirit, and to regularly dismiss the temptations of the flesh. This is our justification--not perfection, but a simple choice to live in Christ's Spirit. He met the needs of the code book, so that the code book is no longer needed, and no longer in operation.

What is in operation is our need to satisfy the One who wrote the code book. And that requires that we live by His Spirit.

So both needs are met to provide our justification. The code book is completed by Christ qualifying to give us his spiritual life. And we are able to live by his Spirit, and to void the thing that Christ has successfully voided legally--the flesh. We are not trying to lead a perfect life in the flesh--we are simply trying to avoid living in the flesh.

Magnificent rationalizations for disobedience! Hang in there, Brothers! You'll make sense of something yet!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yeah, never mind that they're commanded. They're just "good ways of doing things." For us to obey God's commands, we should demand good (to us) reasons, right? Good thing God didn't choose a person of this mindset to build the ark, like Noah, or offer his son as a sacrifice, like Abraham.

Barney, I respectfully disagree, and understand your concern. We are told, flat out, to do these things. What you may lack, however, is context and tone.

The tone of these "commands" is not legalistic--they are persuasive --not trying to achieve conformity to a code book or to a set of laws. Rather, they are focused on spiritual integrity, on moral conformity to the *likeness* of Christ.

Christ did not come to conform to the Law himself. If he did so, it was only to set an example for Israel, who was still under the Law, or so as to not be a stumbling block to those who were indeed still under the Law of Moses. He was not a sinner in need of legal atonement!

Christ was perfect before he was born on earth. He therefore required no Law to achieve justification before God. He was God's Son, and by his very nature perfectly pleasing to God without recourse to following any Law. He fulfilled the Law because by nature he does only what God wants. It was never that he needed to be justified by animal sacrifices designed to atone for sins. Jesus had no sin!

So nothing Jesus said focused on the Law alone, since justification comes apart from the Law. He railed against perfunctory obedience that lacked spirituality. That was the very evidence that the Law in itself could not justify! So Jesus' focus was on his spirituality, which is alone the basis of our justification. We cannot meet the standards of the Law perfectly, and would always be disqualified from the Tree of Life.

Water Baptism and Communion were not even in the Law of Moses. And so, Jesus would hardly be focusing on adherence to rituals that were not even required at that time!

Again, his focus was solely on the spirituality that justifies, being that we are disqualified from eternal life when we fail to conform to a code book that requires perfect adherence. He simply used these rituals to establish an external, and perfunctory means, to encourage this spirituality.

Water Baptism encourages us to publicly declare this new spirituality as a rule for life. Communion is a memory device, to encourage this spirituality. The rituals are only significant as props to encourage the spiritual reality.