Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us

[BarneyFife]

Barney, I respectfully disagree, and understand your concern

As long as we're being respectful, I appreciate this sentiment. But I'm not at all sure you do understand my concern. I'm really not interested in philosophy, and I believe thing's that have been made plain don't need to be sophisticated by man's cerebral wanderings.

More importantly, 31 years ago I joined a movement whose clear mission has always been to warn people of the coming judgments on this earth, resulting from not heeding or knowing of the 3 angels' messages of Revelation 14. I don't presume to have piqued your interest, but if you ever see the issue of the law and specifically the Sabbath become a worldwide concern, you might want to be armed with some facts that you can find many places, but one of the plainest presentations you'll find is at AmazingFacts.org.

And I apologize for my behavior. I've been out of sorts for the past few weeks. I'm normally a little high-strung but I admit I've been in rare form since the Capitol incident. Again, I apologize.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So the law only points out adultery/fornication to the Jew. Got it.

My point is that Paul was speaking as a Jew, from his own perspective. If you don't understand this, you won't understand what he said. Taking verses out of context is the basis for false teaching.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

You didn't seem to address my central objection, which is to say that the Ten Commandments is NOT a moral code. It is a law of the Land for the nation of Israel. No where in the Bible does it say that the Ten Commandments applies to the Gentile as well as the Jew. If you know of such a place, then show it.

I would rather believe the Sabbath according to the Law of Scripture than bow in worship before an idol that never even existed, namely, a standing empty cross. While you talk Law, Law, Law....

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I know it's off topic, but you started it lol... My great grand aunt...Skeerpoort... Pretoria...

tears, tears, tears... magtag. Who of us knew anything? Winkelshoek, my dad's Palala farm ... there's not a tree left in the veld, what wild animals! Lunsklip, Percy Fife's region, NO GRANITE KOPPIE standing --- flattened --- wiped out like with a hydrogen bomb, for kitchens and bathroom luxuries. What a sad land, as our great poet said, "O wye en droewe land ..." or that English lady author, "Cry, the beloved country". IT'S A MAD MAD WORLD, O LORD JESUS COME, COME QUICKLY!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Again, your statement fails to address the post I made. I understand the sloppy ways of people who like to quote a post in order to make an unrelated point. But this is fair warning that I will not respond to you unless you directly address the points that I make.

Please keep your promise.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations,

That Sabbath of YOURS, does not exist in Scripture ANYWHERE EXCEPT with the Pharisees Jesus' main haters and resisters. Side with them, they will welcome you with wicked gleefulness, be assured.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Falsities in YOUR version of Colossians 2:16 -
<<food or drink>>;
<<in respect to a festival>>;
<<a new moon>>;
<<or a Sabbath day>>;
<<things which are>>;
<<a mere shadow>>....
<<but>> the substance belongs to Christ;
all and any combination of the above;
the single overall impression--

INDEED IN WHOLE IT IS NOTHING THAN FALSITY.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

"This level of hatred?" Oh yeah, I'm just full of hate. That's why I get on here and answer the same mind-numbing questions day after day. Sorry I'm not all marshmallows and fur.
I'm totally serious. Who decides what the "Good word" is?

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Okie Doke.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on The Church/the body of Christ/Christians in the New Testament. *Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Even when sabbatarians today set out to "keep" the sabbath day, are they truly "keeping the sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the old covenant law? This would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If sabbath day observances are still required, then what about the burnt offerings which went along with them? (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13) So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath. (Exodus 35:3) Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing. (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19) *These were commanded by God to Israel. (Exodus 35:1)

If the seventh day sabbath is still in affect to keep today, then why don't sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he only keeps part of it? If the sabbath day laws are still in effect today, then according to (Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36), anyone who profaned the sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Is the SDA church going to enforce that? What about Jewish synagogues or the government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the old covenant of law, no sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

God's word makes it clear that sabbath observance was a sign between God and Israel: "The Israelites are to observe the sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested." (Exodus 31:16-17)

In Deuteronomy 5:15, Moses gives the reason the sabbath was given to the nation of Israel: "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the sabbath day."

Your remonstrance can be countered point by point -- for what good? For no good. Do you really think anyone in his senses can hope to make you change your mind-set? It is set in concrete; you will go to your grave with it; your determination is what is written across your every page.

BUT I HAVE THE ANSWER: Jesus Christ the Man of Nazareth, "Secluded Acre" who created for HIMSELF a secluded space IN TIME and blessed it and hallowed it and rested in it, and USED IT "for man" and "honoured the Sabbath" WITH THE GLORY OF HIS RESURRECTION ON IT.

Have your Sabbath Day-less 'Christianity' for yourself; it's not Christian Faith, it's not for me; it's not for anyone whom the LORD of hosts brought through the Red Sea and over the Jordan River for to be saved from the grave of the dead by Yahweh Elohim, "For the LORD fought mightily; He is a Man-of-War, HE TRIUMPHED GLORIOUSLY!

 

[BarneyFife]

My point is that Paul was speaking as a Jew, from his own perspective. If you don't understand this, you won't understand what he said. Taking verses out of context is the basis for false teaching.

There is nothing in the context that suggests anything other than moral instruction. If you don't understand this, you won't understand what he said.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Why don't you start a "Resurrection On Sabbath" thread? It's off-topic here.

The Resurrection of Christ on the Sabbath the day after the Preparation the third day of Divine Prophesy the day before the First Day of the week is ALL I HAVE TO SAY, but it is the great divide between Truth and error which the SDA LIKE YOU like a steeks donkey REFUSE TO CROSS.

 

[BarneyFife]

The Resurrection of Christ on the Sabbath the day after the Preparation the third day of Divine Prophesy the day before the First Day of the week is ALL I HAVE TO SAY, but it is the great divide between Truth and error which the SDA LIKE YOU like a steeks donkey REFUSE TO CROSS.

It's so weird that you believe you know what I think. Adventists are not robots anymore. Many of us actually think for ourselves. Why don't you outline your beefs and beliefs to me in a PM. But, please, please, keep it intelligible and as dispassionate as you can manage. If I can't understand it, it won't do either of us any good.

 

[BarneyFife]

Like I already said, sin is not acceptable, yet we are not sinless 100% of the time either. (1 John 1:8-10)

Actually, in and of ourselves, we're never 100% sinless. Selfish motives pollute even our "good" deeds. Not to mention sins of omission.

 

[Randy Kluth]

As long as we're being respectful, I appreciate this sentiment. But I'm not at all sure you do understand my concern. I'm really not interested in philosophy, and I believe thing's that have been made plain don't need to be sophisticated by man's cerebral wanderings.

More importantly, 31 years ago I joined a movement whose clear mission has always been to warn people of the coming judgments on this earth, resulting from not heeding or knowing of the 3 angels' messages of Revelation 14. I don't presume to have piqued your interest, but if you ever see the issue of the law and specifically the Sabbath become a worldwide concern, you might want to be armed with some facts that you can find many places, but one of the plainest presentations you'll find is at Amazing Facts.org.

And I apologize for my behavior. I've been out of sorts for the past few weeks. I'm normally a little high-strung but I admit I've been in rare form since the Capitol incident. Again, I apologize.

As long as we're being respectful, I appreciate this sentiment. But I'm not at all sure you do understand my concern. I'm really not interested in philosophy, and I believe thing's that have been made plain don't need to be sophisticated by man's cerebral wanderings.

More importantly, 31 years ago I joined a movement whose clear mission has always been to warn people of the coming judgments on this earth, resulting from not heeding or knowing of the 3 angels' messages of Revelation 14. I don't presume to have piqued your interest, but if you ever see the issue of the law and specifically the Sabbath become a worldwide concern, you might want to be armed with some facts that you can find many places, but one of the plainest presentations you'll find is at Amazing Facts.org.

And I apologize for my behavior. I've been out of sorts for the past few weeks. I'm normally a little high-strung but I admit I've been in rare form since the Capitol incident. Again, I apologize.

Not to worry, Barney. I make a habit of never dealing with things out of my own insecurities. We all have our own concerns--yours are as important as mine.

My own interest in the theology of the Law stems from my background in Lutheranism. I was raised a Lutheran from birth, and attended 2 years of Lutheran catechism. I understand Reformation theology, and it is very disinterested in anything that smells like legalism.

Trying to follow the Law in any form is, in my view, Legalism. It is requiring of others something that they have no need to do. This includes Sabbath observance, Water Baptism, and even Communion. We don't have to do any of these things to be Saved and part of Christ's Kingdom.

It's an entirely different question about whether these things should be encouraged or not. Obviously, Water Baptism and Communion are desirable, inasmuch as Christ recommended them. They serve a purpose within Salvation, though not being necessary to "get Saved."

Some feel that worshiping once a week is equally important, and I would agree. Whether it's Saturday or Sunday doesn't matter to me. To find it as obligated under the Law of Moses is errant theology, in my view. I'm not interested in feuding with anybody about it--this is just my own heart-felt belief. And I've spent about 50 years studying this kind of thing. I'm no novice.

If your Church likes to meet on Saturday, great--just don't judge those who like to meet on Sunday or Wednesday nights. That does cause division among Christians.

As for prophecy, this is my favorite subject. I have no problem with 7th Day Adventists wanting to warn the world about what's coming. I don't know what the general beliefs are within that Church. Perhaps I'll look it up, and find out.

Thanks for engaging me in a little of this. Again, it's just what I believe, and not about how I think of you or your Church. Thanks for the peaceable words! That's true Christianity.

 

[Brakelite]

Sad, isn't it? This level of hatred at a Christian website is just wrong. We are supposed to Love one another with Love that comes from Christ.

Have we been issued the Love that comes from God? Is it within us? Or, is our father [still] the Devil?

1 Timothy 1:14 NLT - "Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He filled me with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus."

Oh please. You sound like a Democrat espousing tolerance and at the same time throwing a rope around a statue.
Promoting love and at the same time accusing others of hate without any evidence is like mixing oil and water. Stop inventing stuff to give you grounds for complaint. For your own benefit, just address the issues.

 

[BarneyFife]

Oh please. You sound like a Democrat espousing tolerance and at the same time throwing a rope around a statue.
Promoting love and at the same time accusing others of hate without any evidence is like mixing oil and water. Stop inventing stuff to give you grounds for complaint. For your own benefit, just address the issues.

It's the rule of the day: Opposition = HATE

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, The law served more than one purpose as you suggest. In his epistle to the Galatians, Paul wrote that the law served as a tutor and a guardian. From this we learn that the Law is pedagogical. That is, the law contains wisdom, not only teaching us righteousness and goodness, but teaching us holiness also.

Many of the Jewish laws are intended to give expression to righteous sentiments and model righteous values and concepts. Consider for instance, God's law concerning the mixing of cloth. This law illustrates purity, and from this we understand important concepts like "unmixed", "unalloyed", "unadulterated," "clarity", "simplicity", "single-mindedness", "virtue", and related concepts. The law dictates that the Jewish people model those concepts and virtues, employing a religious practice. This practice is a Jewish obligation, not a Gentile obligation. However, just because the Gentiles are not prohibited from mixing two kinds of cloth; they are still obligated to behave in purity, with single-mindedness, and all the other related virtues. Gentiles are obligated to emulate and practice God's moral vision, even though they are not obligated to give expression to that vision with the prescribed Jewish, ritualistic, practices.

About the cloth part, I agree, however we are still obligated not to mix the holy with the profane. Specific NT instructions exemplify this, for example with unequal marriages. The introduction of so called Sunday sacredness is another example that through tradition has become in some churches a doctrine that denies a specific Commandment directly related to worship.
"In vain do they worship Me etc etc etc."

 

[Brakelite]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you clarify your objection?

Sure. Why didn't it "occur to you' that the scripture you quoted,
KJV Romans 8:3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Specifically details why the law cannot save... Could not save, anyone. Because the flesh of sinful man cannot obey the law.
However, the last part of that verse and the next verse gives God's solution to that problem, and it didn't involve removing the law or making it void, but rather placing that very same law in renewed hearts and minds. The fault therefore was never with the law... It's with us.

 

[Brakelite]

tears, tears, tears... magtag. Who of us knew anything? Winkelshoek, my dad's Palala farm ... there's not a tree left in the veld, what wild animals! Lunsklip, Percy Fife's region, NO GRANITE KOPPIE standing --- flattened --- wiped out like with a hydrogen bomb, for kitchens and bathroom luxuries. What a sad land, as our great poet said, "O wye en droewe land ..." or that English lady author, "Cry, the beloved country". IT'S A MAD MAD WORLD, O LORD JESUS COME, COME QUICKLY!

Indeed brother. So looking forward to the new earth.

 

[Brakelite]

tears, tears, tears... magtag. Who of us knew anything? Winkelshoek, my dad's Palala farm ... there's not a tree left in the veld, what wild animals! Lunsklip, Percy Fife's region, NO GRANITE KOPPIE standing --- flattened --- wiped out like with a hydrogen bomb, for kitchens and bathroom luxuries. What a sad land, as our great poet said, "O wye en droewe land ..." or that English lady author, "Cry, the beloved country". IT'S A MAD MAD WORLD, O LORD JESUS COME, COME QUICKLY!