Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us

[CadyandZoe]

Slightly imaginative nonsense

Look brother, if you don't respect me as a brother, then respect me as a fellow human being. I don't mind it when people find errors in my judgment, but your answer is both offensive and lazy. Defend your statement or I will consider you an enemy.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (Romans 7:7)

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)


Romans 2
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Nothing in your response is proof that the so called Ten Commandments is a moral code that applies to all of humanity.

 

[CadyandZoe]

According to all your other moral codes applicable to all humanity, dear Lord, the Law of Love, obliterate the immoral Sabbath and with it all the immoral believers of the Sabbath Day. Then I'll believe in your Commandments, o Righteous One, and love You only.

You didn't seem to address my central objection, which is to say that the Ten Commandments is NOT a moral code. It is a law of the Land for the nation of Israel. No where in the Bible does it say that the Ten Commandments applies to the Gentile as well as the Jew. If you know of such a place, then show it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

called inconsistency and self-contradictoriness ... EXPECTED OF GOD -- ONLY, ONLY, TO RID ONESELF OF HIS SABBATH DAY! <sadly mistaken>
The right option is to admit one’s guilt of sin and plead the available grace of forgiveness for our transgression (and take heart from the fact of reality that no one is more, or less, guilty than the best – we are all sinners EQUALLY and have access to the Throne of Grace EQUALLY by The Only Way, The Way of Grace and Forgiveness through the Saviour of ALL the saved, Jesus Christ God the Son of God, God the Son of Man.)

[[Or admit jealousy and spitefulness and pray, O Lord, please obliterate all believers of the Jewish sabbath. Then I'll be happy.]]

Again, your statement fails to address the post I made. I understand the sloppy ways of people who like to quote a post in order to make an unrelated point. But this is fair warning that I will not respond to you unless you directly address the points that I make.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[mailmandan]

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on The Church/the body of Christ/Christians in the New Testament. *Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Even when sabbatarians today set out to "keep" the sabbath day, are they truly "keeping the sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the old covenant law? This would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If sabbath day observances are still required, then what about the burnt offerings which went along with them? (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13) So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath. (Exodus 35:3) Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing. (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19) *These were commanded by God to Israel. (Exodus 35:1)

If the seventh day sabbath is still in affect to keep today, then why don't sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he only keeps part of it? If the sabbath day laws are still in effect today, then according to (Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36), anyone who profaned the sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Is the SDA church going to enforce that? What about Jewish synagogues or the government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the old covenant of law, no sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

God's word makes it clear that sabbath observance was a sign between God and Israel: "The Israelites are to observe the sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested." (Exodus 31:16-17)

In Deuteronomy 5:15, Moses gives the reason the sabbath was given to the nation of Israel: "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the sabbath day."

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Again, your statement fails to address the post I made. I understand the sloppy ways of people who like to quote a post in order to make an unrelated point. But this is fair warning that I will not respond to you unless you directly address the points that I make.

Llllllllllllllllllllllll

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on The Church/the body of Christ/Christians in the New Testament. *Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Compare this with the real thing, post #345.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'll consider myself "warned." I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be "warned" about?

The problem is, you divert away from any reasonable argument, and if you're not interested in the actual debate, I'm not interested either.

Col 2.16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Randy,
As I was reading this thread the following passage came to my mind,

Romans 8:1-4
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

It occurred to me that one way the Law is "weak" is the very fact that it IS a law. That is, the law is weak in two ways: 1) all it can do is condemn, and 2) it remains outside the soul, outside the inner man. For instance, if I rest every Saturday, but watch football all day, am I really "remembering the Sabbath Day?" This seems to miss the point entirely. Is God really into religious observance or perhaps he cares more about my heart, my mind, my soul? Maybe "keeping the Sabbath Day holy" is more about faith, and internalizing the truth about the Sabbath day, rather than taking time off work to rest. As long as Sabbath observance remains a "Law" rather than an internal commitment to the truth of that glorious day, that particular law remains "weak" and ineffective.

Comments?

p.s. hang in there brother.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Even when sabbatarians today set out to "keep" the sabbath day, are they truly "keeping the sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the old covenant law? This would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

HERE IS WHAT THE GENUINE SCHOLAR AND TRUE CHRISTIAN JOHN MACARTHUR HAS TO SAY ABOUT THIS, YOUR WISHFUL THINKING AND MOST HEAVENLY HOPES.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFbKogq6FCc

 

[Brakelite]

Imagine there are two countries. Let's call them "Tree" and "Rock". As we all know, each country has the right of sovereignty, dictating the laws and rules that best protect the welfare and happiness of the citizens who live there. We might also imagine that each of these countries will have similar laws to each other, while they will also have laws that are unique to each country.

Now suppose a citizen of Tree visits the country of Rock on vacation. What does the citizen of Tree expect from the country of Rock with regard to the laws of Rock? Wouldn't the visitor expect the country of Rock to enforce it's laws fairly and equally? The law for visitors is the same law for natives? And wouldn't the visitor be expected to obey all the laws of Rock?

On the other hand, if a citizen of Tree never left home, would we expect a homebound citizen of Tree to obey the laws of Rock?

Why then would we expect someone living outside of Israel to obey the laws of Israel? Why do You say that those living outside the country of Israel are obligated to obey the Ten Commandments?

Think about it.
What is the difference between a "law" and a moral imperative?

Let us assume that your two Nations are actually the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan into which we were all born. What you are suggesting is that the laws of God's kingdom that He was introducing into a world steeped in idolatry and rebellion was only for one small favored segment. Were those laws just for them, or were they given to them with the intention they shine a light as to the grace and love of a merciful and just God whose laws are an expression of His character, and are
KJV Romans 7:12
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 

[mailmandan]

HERE IS WHAT THE GENUINE SCHOLAR AND TRUE CHRISTIAN JOHN MACARTHUR HAS TO SAY ABOUT THIS, YOUR WISHFUL THINKING AND MOST HEAVENLY HOPES.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFbKogq6FCc

Here is what John MacArthur has to say about the sabbath day laws.

Are the Sabbath laws binding on Christians today?

By John MacArthur

We believe the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances are ceremonial, not moral, aspects of the law. As such, they are no longer in force, but have passed away along with the sacrificial system, the Levitical priesthood, and all other aspects of Moses' law that prefigured Christ. Here are the reasons we hold this view.

1. In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase "a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jewish calendar (cf. 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word "Sabbath?" He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of festivals and new moons.

2. The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

3. The New Testament never commands Christians to observe the Sabbath.

4. In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).

5. Nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so. That is certainly strange if Sabbath observance were meant to be an eternal moral principle.

6. There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time of Moses, nor are there any commands in the Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.

7. When the Apostles met at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), they did not impose Sabbath keeping on the Gentile believers.

8. The apostle Paul warned the Gentiles about many different sins in his epistles, but breaking the Sabbath was never one of them.

9. In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath).

10. In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).

11. The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century).

12. Sunday has not replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. Rather the Lord's Day is a time when believers gather to commemorate His resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. Every day to the believer is one of Sabbath rest, since we have ceased from our spiritual labor and are resting in the salvation of the Lord (Hebrews 4:9-11).

So while we still follow the pattern of designating one day of the week a day for the Lord's people to gather in worship, we do not refer to this as "the Sabbath."

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Maybe "keeping the Sabbath Day holy" is more about faith, and internalizing the truth about the Sabbath day, rather than taking time off work to rest. As long as Sabbath observance remains a "Law" rather than an internal commitment to the truth of that glorious day, that particular law remains "weak" and ineffective.

WHAT A TRUE WORD AT LAST! GLORY HALLUIAH

In the first place <<an internal commitment to the truth of that glorious day,>> that "the Seventh Day is Sabbath OF THE LORD YOUR GOD".

In the next place <<that particular law remains "weak" and ineffective>> WITHOUT "THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION" : "ON" it : "THE WEEKLY SABBATH when there came a great earthquake and the angel of the Lord cast the stone from the tomb...." AND "CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" :"THE SCRIPTURES concerning God's Son Jesus Christ our Lord DECLARED TO BE THE SON OF GOD WITH POWER ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS BY HIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD."

"So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach THE GOSPEL to you" all the same that are of 2000 years after Paul. THERE! THERE ARE YOUR STONES ALL AROUND! PICK THEM UP AND THROW THEM AND ENJOY YOUR DAY OF REVENGE ON THE LORD'S SABBATH!

 

[Brakelite]

It occurred to me that one way the Law is "weak" is the very fact that it IS a law. That is, the law is weak in two ways: 1) all it can do is condemn, and 2) it remains outside the soul, outside the inner man. For instance, if I rest every Saturday, but watch football all day, am I really "remembering the Sabbath Day?" This seems to miss the point entirely. Is God really into religious observance or perhaps he cares more about my heart, my mind, my soul?

The scripture tells you when the law is weak... You quoted it... Then you say "it occurs to you etc etc? That it's weak because it's a law? And then in order to justify this "weakness" you invent a straw man that those who observe Sabbath are watching footy all day???
Like I said in a previous post. Inventing arguments to avoid obedience. You post is a classic example. Now I understand why @BarnyFife said "sightly imaginative nonsense".

 

[Brakelite]

Here is what John MacArthur has to say about the sabbath day laws.

Are the Sabbath laws binding on Christians today?

By John MacArthur

We believe the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances are ceremonial, not moral, aspects of the law. As such, they are no longer in force, but have passed away along with the sacrificial system, the Levitical priesthood, and all other aspects of Moses' law that prefigured Christ. Here are the reasons we hold this view.

1. In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase "a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jewish calendar (cf. 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word "Sabbath?" He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of festivals and new moons.

2. The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

3. The New Testament never commands Christians to observe the Sabbath.

4. In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).

5. Nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so. That is certainly strange if Sabbath observance were meant to be an eternal moral principle.

6. There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time of Moses, nor are there any commands in the Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.

7. When the Apostles met at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), they did not impose Sabbath keeping on the Gentile believers.

8. The apostle Paul warned the Gentiles about many different sins in his epistles, but breaking the Sabbath was never one of them.

9. In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath).

10. In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).

11. The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century).

12. Sunday has not replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. Rather the Lord's Day is a time when believers gather to commemorate His resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. Every day to the believer is one of Sabbath rest, since we have ceased from our spiritual labor and are resting in the salvation of the Lord (Hebrews 4:9-11).

So while we still follow the pattern of designating one day of the week a day for the Lord's people to gather in worship, we do not refer to this as "the Sabbath."

If those are John McArthur's reasons for rejecting the authority of Jesus, then I've lost any resoect I had for him. I thought he was a Christian who at least tried to base his beliefs in scripture. But there are so many holes in his arguments above I could drive my bus through them. And to be honest, those arguments have been refuted so many times before, I'm over it. They are simply inventions and convenient excuses for cleaving to a false tradition. Some of his points above are downright lies.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

11. The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century).

The oldest proven most successful way to fool people with: MIX TRUTH AND ERROR-- bulls eye!

 

[BarneyFife]

Look brother, if you don't respect me as a brother, then respect me as a fellow human being. I don't mind it when people find errors in my judgment, but your answer is both offensive and lazy. Defend your statement or I will consider you an enemy.

Look, "Brother," I come from a time and place where respect must be earned. My answer is both comprehensive and concise. And you may consider me any way you see fit.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

If those are John McArthur's reasons for rejecting the authority of Jesus, then I've lost any resoect I had for him. I thought he was a Christian who at least tried to base his beliefs in scripture. But there are so many holes in his arguments above I could drive my bus through them. And to be honest, those arguments have been refuted so many times before, I'm over it. They are simply inventions and convenient excuses for cleaning to a false tradition. Some of his points above are downright lies.

So you have listened to this video and perhaps have read the script? No, you know as well as I do that you have not. You owe John MacArthur an apology and more than an apology, You owe God a prayer for forgiveness.

 

[mailmandan]

If those are John McArthur's reasons for rejecting the authority of Jesus, then I've lost any resoect I had for him. I thought he was a Christian who at least tried to base his beliefs in scripture. But there are so many holes in his arguments above I could drive my bus through them. And to be honest, those arguments have been refuted so many times before, I'm over it. They are simply inventions and convenient excuses for cleaning to a false tradition. Some of his points above are downright lies.

Rejecting the authority of Jesus? Show me where Jesus or the apostle Paul commands the Church/the body of Christ to keep the sabbath day in the New Testament and condemns those for failing to do so. Are you saying that John McArthur must not be a Christian if he holds to those beliefs about the sabbath laws? I come across SDA's and Armstrongites all the time who strongly promote "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works" and basically imply that those who don't keep the sabbath day (on Saturday of course) are disobeying God and won't be saved, which is legalism.

 

[mailmandan]

The oldest proven most successful way to fool people with: MIX TRUTH AND ERROR-- bulls eye!

Oh the irony. I am not fooled by misguided teachers of the law/modern day judaizers.