Who founded your church?

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, once entire households have believed and been born again, then they should be water baptized following their conversion.

That's true.

That's NOT what the Bible says, though - IS it?

Peter and Paul Baptized the ENTIRE households of Cornelius, the Philippian Jailer and Stephanas.
If there were infants and toddlers - and there is NO reason to think there weren't - then YOU have a big problem . . .

 

[FHII]

Mary said...>>"be in unto me as you said".

Contrast that with Elizabeth's Husband, Zachariah, who wanted proof that he was going to have a son in his old age.. after the Angel told him it would happen.
He spoke doubt, almost sarcastically.
So, he resisted and lost his voice until the baby was born.

Mary didnt resist, she said....>"be it done to me according to thy word"..

That is full compliance.

Well yes, it may be full compliance, but that doesn't mean she had a choice.

As for Mary vs. Zachariah... Let's look at the statements:

Luke 1:18 KJV
And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

Luke 1:34 KJV
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

They both had doubts on how it would happen. Now was Zacharias not willing also? They both had doubts. There is a difference. Zacharias still had to have sex with his wife, and needed the miracle of resurrection. Mary did nothing.

 

[Behold]

That's NOT what the Bible says, though - IS it?
. .

Of course it is.

Every time one of your verses shows that households or similar have been baptized, it happens after they believed.
See, water follows Salvation.
Babies are not born again, breadoflife, because babies are not able to execute FAITH, as this takes a mind that can understand the Gospel message.

Even you can figure this out, hopefully.

Water follows Salvation.....It does not cause it.
In the case of the dying Thief on the Cross, water was not even involved at all.
You problem lies with the religious organization that has taught you to falsely trust in water.
And as i told you....you have to get far far away from water cult theology.

 

[Marymog]

I'll give you the same Anatomy & Physiology lesson that Christ gave Nicodemus.
Share this with your Pontiff.

Marymog, if you get pregnant, then in about 9 months you will deliver.
And that baby is in WATER. He or she, will be born by water.....through that water., when that "water breaks".
See that birth? Thats by water, right out of you.
Thats Birth #1.
See it? THats= born of water.

But, that wont get you into heaven, as that birth is the 1st one, by water.

So, you must be BORN AGAIN.....a different way........because this next one is not natural childbirth by water...but rather, its a Spiritual birth that creates a NEW CREATION, and is caused by the Holy Spirit.

Riiiigggghhhhtttt.....The man that taught you that didn’t study his bible very well. NT Scripture is dripping with references that equates water with baptism and receiving the Spirit.

In the beginning of John Jesus was baptized with water and the Spirit descended upon him.

At the end of John The apostles then went out and baptized and Peter said when you are baptized (with water) you will receive the Holy Spirit.

In the middle of John Jesus talked to Nicodemus about being born again with water and Spirit. And the theory you were taught that Jesus, in the middle of all this, changed water and spirit to equal water = birth???? Nicodemus foolishly thought like you thought; water = birth. He thought Jesus was talking about water from birth. Jesus corrected him. Nicodemus had no excuse since he was one of the leaders of the Jews and should have known better. You have an excuse for your improper interpretation of that passage since You were taught by another man and you have accepted their teaching.


But your theory is that in the middle of John Jesus changed water = baptism into water = birth. Hmmm....

I ask you Behold: Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” You would have if were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul had laid his hands upon those that were baptized the Holy Spirit came on them. Hmmmmm.....water baptism and Holy Spirit AGAIN!!! Nothing about equating water with birth from Paul’s teaching (Acts 19:2-6).



Run from the person who taught you water = birth theory. It’s an umbilical, 500 year old, teaching.

 

[Marymog]

No, you only proved that you believe what your religious organization believes and teaches, which is.... that the water, the JUDGMENT FLOOD, that is killing a world full of sexual perverts.. is the ARK that is saving Noah and his family.

That's terrible theology, and what makes it worse is that its a lie.

Now that you KNOW that eight were saved thru water (which is opposite of what you said/believe ) then every time you say the same thing from here on out you are just lying about what Scripture says.

 

[Behold]

Well yes, it may be full compliance, but that doesn't mean she had a choice.

As for Mary vs. Zachariah... Let's look at the statements:
Luke 1:18 KJV
And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
Luke 1:34 KJV
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
They both had doubts on how it would happen. Now was Zacharias not willing also? They both had doubts. There is a difference. Zacharias still had to have sex with his wife, and needed the miracle of resurrection. Mary did nothing.

Well, Zacharias was punished for his unbelief.
Mary did not have unbelief....she had....>"wow, REALLY......WOW WOW WOW">..
She was beyond excited, and that is why she said...>"all generations shall call me blessed".. !!!!!!!

Zachariah, was not the same ........and he stopped talking for a while.

 

[BreadOfLife]

FYI, there is a "catholic" on this forum right now, that is talking to me, telling me that water saves.
that "baptismal regeneration" is salvation.
So, is this Catholic lying, or are you?

Now, notice this...
In the Acts of the Apostles....(not the Christians) but the APOSTLES.....its THEIR ACTS.....which is why the epistle is showing you the Apostles deeds....
Notice that everytime an Apostle water baptizes, or if you read of a water baptism, in ACTS ....it always follows....>"they BELIEVED".
They BELIEVED.
BELIEVED
BELIEVED= FIRST.
Every single time, in the ACTS of the APOSTLES.

That is """Justification by FAITH.""
That is ""Grace Through Faith.""
That is "Paul's Gospel".

Why is that?

Because "all that believe on Jesus shall be saved".
"SAVED" means born again..

'"" Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it <. IT.....= the BELIEVEING........ was COUNTED as RIGHTEOUSNESS"..
Not later.
But THEN.
This is why Abraham is the "Father of our FAITH".

DID YOU NOTICE that there is no water involved?
Take a good look.

Baptismal Regeneration IS salvation because it is the regeneration of our very being by the Holy Spirit. and the forgiveness of our sins. The water is simply the MEANS - but it is necessary.

HOWEVER, because we don't adhere to the false, man-made 16th century invention of OSAS and adhere to what the Bible teaches instead - we know that unless we die right after nbeing Baptized we can LOSE our salvation by our own doing. THIS is why salvation is a process, aas Scripture teaches us. We musy endure in faith - to the end.

As to salvation by faith - absolutely. BUT, faith is NOT what you and most Protestants think it is.
Faith is NOT mere belief. The Bible tells us that even the DEMONS have that much (James 2:19). Faith - TRUE faith includes:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

Faith is Belief + Obedience.
If ALL you have is belief - then you're NO better off than the demons . . .

 

[Behold]

[QUOTE="Marymog, post: 953912, member: 7405"

In the middle of John Jesus talked to Nicodemus about being born again with water and Spirit
But your theory is that in the middle of John Jesus changed water = baptism into water = birth. Hmmm....I ask you Behold: Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”.[/QUOTE]


To begin with, only the Water Cult bible, says...>"born again with water". or "born again of water".
No other bible teaches this heresy.
Understand?
Just yours.

Read a KJV, read a NIV....read any other bible other then the Catholic Bible, ..Read any Greek text, and you'll find that "born again by or of water"< is not found, in any Greek or other Bible.
That stuff came from just one bible, and its corrupt.
That theology is a man made lie.
Research it.

Also, Did i receive the Holy Spirit when i was born again?
Is that your question?
Well, i could not be born again, unless the Holy Spirit is living in me.

"He that hath not the Spirit of Christ is none of Gods". Romans 8.

 

[Marymog]

It is a public confession.
Are you doing it by yourself?
Did you water baptize yourself Marymog, ?
How many people were there when you were sprinkled and confirmed in public?
Your family, workers, the Priest, and who else?
Right.

So, stop trying to just be annoying, and make an effort to be honest.
If you dont want to learn, then, dont learn.
Just sit there with your candles, and your beads and your little statues of Mary and pretend you have it all figured out.

Show me in scripture where it says that there has to be more people present than the person baptizing and the person being baptized. If you can show me that in scripture I will join your cult. You have failed so far. Here is another chance.

Just be honest for once. Both you and I know its not in scripture. Since its not in Scripture I know I will never have to join your cult. I know your pride will never allow you to say “Yup Mary, your right. It’s not in Scripture. It’s just the way I personally interpret Scripture”. I would accept that answer and have more respect for you over your insistence that it is in Scripture.....when it’s not.

What is truly annoying is when someone makes a statement and can’t back it up but they keep insisting they are right....that’s annoying!

 

[Behold]

Baptismal Regeneration IS salvation .

No, that is just water cult heresy.

"Born again by water" is not how you are born again.

A person is born again by the SPIRIT OF GOD.....alone.
God Spirit, give the new birth .
Water can't do that.

So, teaching that water cult gospel, is not a good idea, and believing it is something you need to deal with, asap.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Of course it is.

Every time one of your verses shows that households or similar have been baptized, it happens after they believed.
See, water follows Salvation.
Babies are not born again, breadoflife, because babies are not able to execute FAITH, as this takes a mind that can understand the Gospel message.

Even you can figure this out, hopefully.

Water follows Salvation.....It does not cause it.
In the case of the dying Thief on the Cross, water was not even involved at all.
You problem lies with the religious organization that has taught you to falsely trust in water.
And as i told you....you have to get far far away from water cult theology.

Of COURSE Baptism comes after belief - for ADULTS. The SAME was true for circumcision for those converting to Judaism.
You're not gong to read about a baby demanding Baptism without first believing.

As I pointed out to your fellow Baptism-denier, @Truther in post #2101 - the Early Church writings are replete with testimonies about the Apostles handing down this Tradition to them.

Finally - I've addressed your concerns about the Thief on the cross - ad nauseam.
He was an exception. YOUR problem is that you build your false doctrines on the exception instead of the norm . . .

 

[Marymog]

JOHN 3:5 KJV "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he..."[/URL]

Bible Gateway passage: John 3:5 - New International Version

Oooops....I take that back.

 

[Behold]

Show me in scripture where it says that there has to be more people present than the person baptizing and the person being baptized.

I didnt say there had to be more people present.
I said that in your case, there were how many?
We are still waiting for your answer....

I said its a public confession....and it is not how you are saved.
Thats what i said, in that context.
As a matter of fact, you dont have to be water baptized.
Was the dying Thief on the Cross?
But you do have to be born again..
Water can't cause that to happen.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, that is just water cult heresy.

"Born again by water" is not how you are born again.

A person is born again by the SPIRIT OF GOD.....alone.
God Spirit, give the new birth .
Water can't do that.

So, teaching that water cult gospel, is not a good idea, and believing it is something you need to deal with, asap.

And HOW do we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit??
through BAPTISM . . .
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Your lack of faith is astounding . . .

 

[Marymog]

No, that is just water cult heresy.

"Born again by water" is not how you are born again.

A person is born again by the SPIRIT OF GOD.....alone.
God Spirit, give the new birth .
Water can't do that.

So, teaching that water cult gospel, is not a good idea, and believing it is something you need to deal with, asap.

Three thousand joined the water cult in one day: Acts 2:41

@BreadOfLife do you know of anymore??

 

[Behold]

Of COURSE Baptism comes after belief -

As I pointed out to your fellow Baptism-denier, @Truther in post #2101 - the Early Church writings are replete with testimonies about the Apostles handing down this Tradition to them.

Babies are not saved by water, and neither are ADULTS.

Also, when building a cult, you always want to give the impression of credibility.
You name drop.. You imply.....You suggest.
So, certainly, you are going to be told the heresy you are taught, came from credible sources.
Do you think they would tell you otherwise?
This is how you fool the kiddies.

Listen, find out why Valentinus, the father of the Gnostics almost became a Pope.

You really dont look in the right places, and that is why you dont find the right answers.

 

[Behold]

And HOW do we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit??
through BAPTISM . . .
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Your lack of faith is astounding . . .

First of all, that is not the Gospel of the Grace of God, that is the John The Baptists, "israel's repentance" message.

Next.....you have all these in the upper room, who are filled with the Spirit, speaking in Tongues , before Peter preached, and none of them were water baptized yet.

So, you can't read, and you dont care.
Not a good combination.

 

[Marymog]

I didnt say there had to be more people present.
I said that in your case, there were how many?
We are still waiting for your answer....

I said its a public confession....and it is not how you are saved.
Thats what i said, in that context.
As a matter of fact, you dont have to be water baptized.
Was the dying Thief on the Cross?
But you do have to be born again..
Water can't cause that to happen.

You did say that it was public. I already quoted you on that . You have made it clear that in scripture multiple people were present when people were baptized and you equated that to a public baptism soooooo lets drop the false statements kiddo.

Sooooo if one goes in the middle of the town square and no one is around to witness the baptism is that is considered a “public” baptism????????????

Your right.....you don’t have to be water baptized. All the NT Christians were wrong and you are right. They didn’t ignore Jesus command in the great commission to baptize. They baptized by the thousands. But according to the man who taught you it was for no reason because as a matter of FACT we don’t have to be water baptized now do we.

I wonder what happens to those that ignore Jesus commands???

 

[FHII]

Well, Zacharias was punished for his unbelief.
Mary did not have unbelief....she had....>"wow, REALLY......WOW WOW WOW">..
She was beyond excited, and that is why she said...>"all generations shall call me blessed".. !!!!!!!

Zachariah, was not the same ........and he stopped talking for a while.

Yes, Zacharias was punished and Mary was not, but don't ignore what they said. They both expressed doubts based on their conditions. Actually, they were both blessed.

 

[Illuminator]

Mary was blessed and highly favored. But was it because of anything she did?

No. She didn't need to "do" anything, it was God's plan, as prophesied. She was a humble handmaiden who heard the word of God and kept it. So is everyone else who hears the word of God and keeps it. Hmm... where have I heard that before?

So who is honor due to: God or Mary?

Dulia (L.) is honor we give to other human beings.
Hyperdulia is just more of the same kind, because she is "blessed among women". It's still a human type of honor.
Latria is worship due to God alone.
Dulia | Catholic Answers

She agreed to do it? I don't remember the Angel asking her if it was ok with her. I just see the angel saying it was going to happen. Yea... She went along and was happy with it. But I don't see where she was asked if it was ok by her.

There was no 21 century fiance relationship going on here.

Yeah, she was blessed. And all generations realize it. But she didn't do anything to deserve it.

No, but God prepared her. We know she was saved because Scripture says she rejoiced in "God my savior". Did Mary go the Temple and recite the sinners prayer? When was she saved???

Yes, Zacharias was punished and Mary was not, but don't ignore what they said. They both expressed doubts based on their conditions.

Please explain how "Be it done unto me according to thy word" is an expression of doubt. Mary was perplexed because she knew not a man, and for sure knew where babies come from.