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Your Thoughts: 1 Thessalonians 1:5-10
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No worries! Just processing . . .
I am all for fervert corporate prayer, and prior to the coronavirus . . . well, we haven't been meeting, but I'm still praying!!
But if you want to pursue the thought a little! :)
I think to me the heart of the matter is my anticipation of what I think God is going to do, and I really don't know, aside from those things mentioned in the Bible. I love revival, I love movements of the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit has touched me in miraculous and amazing ways! No problem there! Though what I see in the teachings are that there are times and purposes for everything, and that our time is not necessarily that time.
Whether it is or not, that's not what I'm thinking of, just whether I know or not. And I don't know, that is, whether or not God wants to use me to do things other than what He already is. If I'm teaching, does He want me to lead? If I'm leading does He want me to multiply bread?
Or does He just want me to encourage, and teach?
Casting all your cares on Him, for He cares for you!
That's my approach! Walk in faith, trust in His love, and realize that He knows all about my weakness. I don't put limits on what He will do, and I don't try to second guess. He constantly surprises me.
"but I take the view that He would want the modern church to be emulating the early church when it came to manifestations of supernatural gifts."
For myself, I see in the Scripture that there were signs and wonders being done primarily for the benefit of the Jews. That the Jews were God's intended conduit to share God's light with the Gentiles. That when the Gospel was then sent directly to the Gentiles, following Israel's continued rejection, that these signs and wonders didn't continue in the same way.
For instance it was in the letters Paul wrote after that time that mention several people being sick with no mention of healings.
So then I come to the question, am I leaving undone works that God wants me to do? I'd answer, I'm certain of it!! To what degree of amazement those works? I don't know. Wash last night's dishes? Pray for my son? Heal my neighbor? Open the clouds and stop the weather?
I'm not trying to be facetious. I answer all of these the same way, submission to God, and trust that He can do what He wants to do.
If it is in your heart to pray for your neighbor to heal his wart, and if it is in your heart to pray with the men for the next 48 hours, what is in your heart to do in the Lord do, trusting Him to lead you in His will, and at the very least, to bring growth, maturity, wisdom, understanding, and other blessings along the way, even should one be fishing about in the weeds!
One thing though . . . I don't preach that the church has failed. I see a big group of people who say they are Christians, but I'm thinking a much smaller number of them actually are. Or at least have left spiritual childhood.
Much love!
I know a lot of people think of that being fulfilled by the transfiguration, as a glimpse ahead to His glory. I think Pentecost makes more sense. I guess I'm not dogmatic about it.
Much love!
Oh how the man generated headings, that have been inserted into the scriptures, have us thinking wrongly about what Jesus was saying. This is just one case. What is the context of Mark 9:1: -
Mark 8:34-9:2: - Take Up the Cross and Follow Him
(Matt 16:24-27; Luke 9:23-26)
34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."
The Transfiguration of Christ
(Matt 16:28-17:13; Luke 9:27-36; 2 Peter 1:16-18)
9:1 And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power."
2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them.
2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them.
NKJV
Now how is the Context of the NET Bible very different: -
Mark 8:34-9:3: - Following Jesus
34 Then Jesus called the crowd, along with his disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wants to become my follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and for the gospel will save it. 36 For what benefit is it for a person to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his life? 37 What can a person give in exchange for his life? 38 For if anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
9:1 And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, there are some standing here who will not experience death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."
The Transfiguration
2 Six days later Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John and led them alone up a high mountain privately. And he was transfigured before them, 3 and his clothes became radiantly white, more so than any launderer in the world could bleach them.
(from The NET Bible®, Copyright © 1996-2006 )
Can a difference in the understanding of the two translations be seen by how the headings have been used.
A very short paraphrase of Mark 9:1 is, "There are some standing here who are not saved and they will experience the second death when they see the kingdom of God come with power at the time of judgement.
A very different conclusion. Jesus was explaining when the second death would kick in and when the time of judgement would be for those who do not full heartedly take up their cross to follow Him.
Shalom
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Hello Taken.
If you can, tie your post to a specific verse in our text for me. Having trouble relating exactly what you are commenting on.
God bless,
- H
Ok, Interesting. The question here would hinge entirely on what is meant in 1 Corinthians 1:21-22:
21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe. 22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:
This would actually be a ton to unpack, but let me just give you what I take the word "signs" to be referring to here. Some take it as miracles, signs and wonders when the Pharisees asked Jesus for a "sign," but the context of that passage doesn't fit with such an interpretation. What the Jews wanted to see were signs from Heaven, i.e. divine portents that would prove He was the Messiah, such as are described as happening before the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31).
The wording is as follows:
1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. 2 He replied, "When evening comes, you say, `It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' 3 and in the morning, `Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away. (Matthew 16:1-4).
The sign of Jonah - three days and three nights in the grave - was the only true sign they would receive of His Messiahship, because the time for the Day of the Lord would not commence during Christ's lifetime, though He was indeed their Messiah.
This then is how I interpret the 1st Corinthians passage. Paul was describing what both the Jews and Greeks were seeking most in discussing what the perfect world ruler would need to be. For the Greeks, he would have to possess incredible wisdom to rule the world wisely, so as never to lose the devotion of the people or lose power. For the Jews, all they needed to know is did He have the backing of Almighty God. If He was the Messiah, all they needed to see were supernatural signs in the heavens confirming Biblical prophecy, and they would support the man. But the point of Paul's teaching was that Christ was both. He was both the wisdom of God and the Power of God.
But again, that's quite a bit to unpack to support further.
I suppose the question would also involve looking into how much what could be classified as miraculous healings, exorcisms, etc were practiced among the Gentiles if the interpretation were that they were meant primarily only for the Jews... Granted they did indeed go to the synagogues first, and I'm not sure there is any way to prove they ever manifested miracles among a strictly Gentile audience during NT times... but I would therefore likely point to modern instances of say tongues or healings among strictly Gentile congregations in the modern era.
Are you Pentecostal, Charity? Maybe more to the point, do you believe the supernatural gifts are still operation today?
Hey, Behold.
Ok, I read through your post. I noticed you twice interpreted the phrase "the Jews require a sign" to be referring to the signs of an apostle. I suppose in order to prove this hypothesis, you would need to establish from the OT that such things are actually what the Jews were looking for.
Also see my response to Charity in Post #48. This is how I interpret the phrase "the Jews require a sign" myself, and in its defense it has the strength of OT citations as its support. But I'm interested to hear your case.
God bless, and thanks for the post.
Amen, Pearl!
Since I know you and I may be on a similar page regrading Pentecostalism, let me take the opportunity to ask you something I asked Charity. I'm curious about it. Take a look at Post #29 and tell me how you would respond to that question. I'd like to know what your response would be.
That's a good approach. :)
Mine has long been that I must be a vessel properly prepared for use, or there is only so much He can do with me; that all fleshly and self-serving desires (pride, lust, desire for money or notoriety, etc) must be taken out of the way, or the Lord runs the risk of me becoming tempted by the enemy, should He use me to perform greater supernatural works.
It is with this mindset that I teach fasting as being so important. I honestly don't know of anyone with any substantial supernatural gifts who hasn't spent significant time in fasting and prayer. Mayflower was talking to me yesterday about a man who is coming to her church that has raised the dead 28 times, and no small coincidence he has fasted extensively.
Give me your response to Post #48 then if you would. It appears yours is a common interpretation of how things played out in NT times, so I am at least learning how prevalent it is. I think my first direct response to the argument would be that the supernatural gifts continued on for the first roughly 250 years of the church before finally dwindling out, and that they returned in modern times, particularly in the early 1900s. But then you also used the words "in the same way," so maybe you are accounting for those things somewhat with your position.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Hi H-in-H,
•Background Point-
*Jesus' chosen Disciples & Voluntary followers, heard, learned from Jesus face to face.
* THEY became soul Saved confessing Belief, Jesus is The Christ, Son of God... While Jesus WAS still ON Earth.
* THEY became "LATER" (by days), Filled with the Holy Spirit (Born Again), AFTER Jesus Assended to Heaven. (Acts 1)
* Since Jesus was thereafter IN HEAVEN ...The WAIT (For a Confessor) "between" Soul Saving AND Receiving Holy Spirit...
Is NO LONGER necessary.
* A confessor...IS (since Jesus' Ascension) Soul Saved AND Born Again- At the Same Time (of the man's Heartful Confession).
•Background Point-
Jesus' Chosen Disciples, (had disciples/ of their own) Helpers that Learned, Believed, Traveled, with and without Jesus' Chosen Deciples, Spreading the Gospel, and Reporting to Jesus' Disciples How the "Churches & People" were "Doing"... Following? Keeping Strong? Wavering? Whatever.
• Paul - Silvanus - Timotheus HAD seemingly BEEN to the Church in Thessalonia, and Preached....and many Were Converted.
• Paul was thereafter IN Corinth.
• IMO- Timothy had returned to Thessalonia, and Reported to Paul...What the People in the Church were "doing".
1 Thes 1:
Appears to me to be a Letter From Paul To the Church in Thessalonia ... Reiterating the time and accomplishments... of Men hearing, believing, Becoming Saved and Born Again (Converted)...and "their WORKS" of "themselves", being Disciples, spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ, beyond Thessalonia, to specifically; Macedonia, Achaia and other places....with success of Conversions.
1 Thes 1:
Appears to me as a sort of good will acknowledgement (By Paul) to the Thessalonians for their good works, spreading the Gospel, and men hearing, choosing to Convert.
A lesson in short...about being Sound in ones own Conviction...and Converted...Are the ones Prepared to Spread the Word of God, do good works unto the Lord God...wherever they go.
The highlight- is the Prepared/ Converted ARE the Examples. The students, become the teachers and The Lord receives greater Blessings.
God Bless,
Taken
Behold
Well-Known Member
No , i dont have to do any of that.. actually.
What i do is just study the NT and obey it's theology, as given as Pauline Theology.
Let me show you..
"the jews require a sign"
"signs are for the Jews".
See that? Thats from the NT.
Did you ever wonder why Jesus was performing MIRACLES in front of the "HOUSE OF ISRAEL"?
(those are jews) (hebrews).
Its because......."jews requires a sign" and "signs are for the JEWS".
(Paul wrote that).
So, miracles are SIGNS.
The Apostles who are all JEWS , had the "signs of an Apostle"...
"Tongues are for a SIGN".
Do you See all that?
Thats were i get my Theology.
= From Paul
Hello @Hidden In Him,
Thank you for responding with your thoughts regarding 1 Corinthians 1:21-22, I agree that the signs looked for were those of Joel, and Peter in Acts 2:16 confirms that this is so. The 'signs following' of Mark 16:20 come into the same category as 'signs from heaven', for they were most assuredly from heaven, performed by God.
The 'signs following' were performed before a mixed audience, for both Jew and devout Gentile heard the words of Paul in the synagogue in Thessalonica (re. our last study). A few Jews believed, but the majority were from among devout Gentiles and the women who were attending the synagogue at that time.
You ask me if I am a Pentecostal, Hidden in Him, and the answer to that is 'No', for I am not affiliated to any denominational body. You also ask whether I believe that supernatural gifts are still in operation today? Again the answer is, 'No'.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
POST 29: If these things are true, how should we be seeking to provide similar assurances (to others) today? I know you responded with, "By preaching the gospel fearlessly, regardless of opposition, in the same manner as Paul; and by shewing the same example in manner of life and witness as described in the passage above. (e.g., Philippians 1:12-14)." If the same manner of life and witness as described in the Thessalonians passage involves signs and wonders following, what does that mean for you and I?
@Hidden In Him I pray. In the past God has put it into my heart to pray for the Catholic church which I still do but less often now; I pray for people to see the deceit and false doctrines they are brainwashed with and that they may clearly see the simplicity of the true gospel. And just his year I have felt God tell me to pray for all the Church; to get rid of religion and traditions that are meaningless and to raise up Spirit filled leaders with vision. I also pray for the leaders and people in my own fellowship, for guidance from the Holy Spirit and for clear vision.
In my own personal life last year my niece who is Catholic was in turmoil so I prayed for her and took her to my church a couple of times where she was again prayed for. I talked to her about a relationship with Jesus. I told her not to pray to dead saints or Mary but to God the Father through Jesus the Son. She would have carried on coming to church with me but we went into lockdown. Also I befriended a lady who came into our meeting one Sunday by mistake. I told her about Jesus and later baptised her. When the opportunities arise I try to use them but there have been times when the person I was sharing with didn't like what I said and fell out with me.
@Hidden In Him I pray. In the past God has put it into my heart to pray for the Catholic church which I still do but less often now; I pray for people to see the deceit and false doctrines they are brainwashed with and that they may clearly see the simplicity of the true gospel. And just his year I have felt God tell me to pray for all the Church; to get rid of religion and traditions that are meaningless and to raise up Spirit filled leaders with vision. I also pray for the leaders and people in my own fellowship, for guidance from the Holy Spirit and for clear vision.
In my own personal life last year my niece who is Catholic was in turmoil so I prayed for her and took her to my church a couple of times where she was again prayed for. I talked to her about a relationship with Jesus. I told her not to pray to dead saints or Mary but to God the Father through Jesus the Son. She would have carried on coming to church with me but we went into lockdown. Also I befriended a lady who came into our meeting one Sunday by mistake. I told her about Jesus and later baptised her. When the opportunities arise I try to use them but there have been times when the person I was sharing with didn't like what I said and fell out with me.
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Re: Matthew 16:28:27-28 & Matthew 17:1-13; Mark 9:1-10; Luke 9:27-36; 2 Peter 1:16-20
Hello @Jay Ross,
'For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels;
and then He shall reward every man according to His works.
Verily I say unto you,
There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death,
till they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom.
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother,
and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
And was transfigured before them:
and His face did shine as the sun,
and His raiment was white as the light.'
* Here we have the prophetic statement made by the Lord, and it's fulfilment. It is both an historical record and prophetic word ( 2 Peter 1:19 ) concerning the coming power and glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.
'For we have not followed cunningly devised fables,
when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
For He received from God the Father honour and glory,
when there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory,
This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard,
when we were with Him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
whereunto ye do well that ye take heed,
as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.'
(2 Peter 1:16-20)
* Peter tells his readers in 2 Peter, that the coming Kingdom was a reality, and puts them in remembrance of it (1:12), and stirs them up to retain this remembrance (v.15). He then goes on to tell them that he had seen what this coming power was able to do in transfiguring this tabernacle of flesh and blood (v.16), and clothing it with majesty and honour and glory (v.17). This is the application that Peter makes of the historical fact of the transfiguration.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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That's a very poor paraphrase, that changes the meaning. There is no mention of whether those standing there were saved or not saved. It also doesn't say they will die when they see God's kingdom being established, nor that this will be at the time of judgement. It does say that they won't experience death before seeing, so it can't be referring to the second death because everyone of those present will have to first experience the first death before they could possibly experience the second death.
Your paraphrase doesn't make sense, because if those not worthy of eternal life will see God's kingdom come with power, and those that are worthy of eternal life will also see it, then everyone will see it! So why then would Jesus say that some of those standing there would see it before they die?
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
To me, this is one of the most attractive aspect of Christianity, power and Spirit. It's coupled in numerous passages, all of which grab me. God has beautifully chosen to work through others. In this work, is not only power but the Spirit of Grace. A powerful scene in Les Miserables is when Valjean was caught stealing the bishops dishes. Expecting to be returned to prison, the bishop responded (with a lie), my friend, why didn't you also take the candle sticks I gave you?
I've found most of the Bible is written plainly (for a layman); there is nothing mystical about the words 'power' and 'spirit.' Power implies a power beyond human capacity, e.g., splitting the Red Sea. This power, this divine power, is not accompanied by the spirit of domination and superiority of human based power, such as the Romans over the Hebrews at the time.
Have you ever heard about the story in the Hadith about Muhammad's experience upon supposedly being visited by the Arch Angel Gabriel? Robert Spenser has a story that compares Mary's experience of wonder. Muhammad told his wife he was terrified out of his wits, shook with fear, sweat profusely. After he became depressed and suicidal.
This and many other things has caused me to conclude Muhammad was actually visited by another angel, posing as Gabriel; the fallen angel Lucifer. The spirit of this power is not divine but malevolent in the extreme. By contrast, this divine power referenced in Thessalonians is accompanied by a Spirit of Grace, that often overwhelms the receiver with goodness, love, joy, peace, etc.
Observation. Experience. The text is plain on the matter. Why do you question it?
Please consider what is written in Daniel 12: -
Daniel 12:1-4: - Prophecy of the End Time
12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up,
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
3 Those who are wise shall shine
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
NKJV
Did Jesus say anything different to this in Mark 9:1?Your understanding denies the second death and the consequences of our sins.
Shalom
Charity, I have no problems of your understanding of what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 1, but in his remembrance of the transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain which Peter witnessed, he does not mix what occurred six days earlier with his experience at the transfiguration.
The passage in Mark 8:34-9:1, Jesus was talking about the requirements of being one of His disciples, and finishes this teaching with the consequence for those who are not one of His disciples, i.e. they will experience the second death when He, Jesus, comes and the Kingdom of God is seen in all its power/authority.
We must be careful to chose wisely, those passages that present a particular theme, and keep them separate from other passages which presents a very different theme or message.
I do appreciate that you spend much of your time in the study of the scriptures, as I also do, but I have learnt by experience that I must be very careful as to how I link blocks of scripture together, particularly when they are dealing with very different subject matter.
Shalom
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