Christian "gay Bashing"

[aspen]

-- But if "erring on the side of grace" means that you end up not pointing out that while you love someone, their sin will lead them to damnation, you are going to have some explaining to do when Jesus give his "Sheep and Goats" speech.

Once again, are there any homosexuals alive today that do not know that many Christians view homosexuality as a sin? I've never met one, myself. So if they all know, why do we have to keep telling them as much as possible?

 

[Foreigner]

I guess I just have enough sin in my own life that I struggle with so I don't really feel like I have the right to be pointing at others... maybe once I'm without sin I'll feel more comfortable pointing out other peoples sins... until then I'll choose the side of grace because that's what I want...

-- Paul, even as he was witnessing and informing people about sin that was to be avoided, confessed that he himself still struggled with sin stating, "The very things I hate I end up doing, the things I want to do I just don't do." Yet he spoke in detail about sins that need to be avoided in order to obtain salvation.

If you are not going to point out to people who - according to the Gospel of Jesus Christ - are entrenched in sin, there is a very good chance that God may want to know, when you stand before him, why you chose to let a sinner continue to revel in sin when it was within your power to point out a better way. A way that leads to eternal life instead of eternal damnation.

Saying, "Lord, I just didn't feel led" is likely to bring about a very interesting response from Him.

Once again, are there any homosexuals alive today that do not know that many Christians view homosexuality as a sin? I've never met one, myself. So if they all know, why do we have to keep telling them as much as possible?

-- I would say the answer is no. Although there are some misguied "Christian" churches that allow non-celibate homosexuals to be leaders in their churches.

I would also say that there are many homosexuals alive today that have not heard WHY it is a sin that God will not excuse, and the fact that Jesus loves them, died for them, will forgive them if they seek His forgiveness and help,

Now why is that? Simple. Because they don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear anyone speak negatively about their lifestyle or their choices.

Your implication is that it is always Christians "coming down hard" on homosexuals. My experience has been just the opposite. Many homosexuals have approached Christians, myself included, demanding to know where we come off thinking we don't have to accept their lifestyle.

It matters not that the next words are that Jesus loves them, he finds this a sin, but because of His love he died for them and offers them a way out.

The simple fact that a Christian won't openly endorse homosexual activity automatically brings forth attacks.

 

[Robbie]

When one of my friends that I actually have a loving relationship with is dealing with sin in their life and they want to hear what Jesus has to say about it I share with them... but I'm not going to go around pointing out people's sins like I'm their judge... because to me that's the opposite of what Jesus taught me to do... besides... the most judgmental christians I've known have always had the darkest skeleton filled closets... when I live in the light I clearly see I need to fix myself before I can fix others...

It's interesting that you use Paul as an example... remember Paul wasn't the finished product... Jesus is... Paul was a work in progress just like us...

 

[Foreigner]

"It's interesting that you use Paul as an example... remember Paul wasn't the finished product... Jesus is... Paul was a work in progress just like us... " - Robbie

-- Your point doesn't alter the fact that Paul was a mighty Christian, used by God, who spoke specifically about sin and his letters make up a good chunk of the God-breathed Bible we use today.
So even though Paul was not sinless, God used him mightily.
Tell me again the point you wanted to make with your statement?



"When one of my friends that I actually have a loving relationship with is dealing with sin in their life and they want to hear what Jesus has to say about it I share with them..." - Robbie

-- Of course you would. It is very easy to do this.



"but I'm not going to go around pointing out people's sins like I'm their judge..." - Robbie

-- So that is the only way you know how to witness to people? Point your finger and yell, "Sinner!"?
Clearly the concept of witnessing via tenderness, sensitivity and conern is lost on you.



"because to me that's the opposite of what Jesus taught me to do.." - Robbie

-- So Jesus DIDN'T tell us to preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth, sharing the good news with those that do not know Him? Hmmmm....interesting.

I am sure glad that the person who witnessed to me and helped me become a Christian didn't believe as you believe.

 

[Robbie]

You seem to be quoting what I wrote and then responding to what you think I might be saying but it seems you're misunderstanding me?

I didn't say Paul wasn't a christian... I said He wasn't perfect... only Jesus was... so He's my only teacher...

It's actually hard some times to talk to my friends about God especially when the truth hurts... my athiest friend's girlfriend just cheated on Him with His best friend and he wanted to talk to me about God... was actually really sad and it hurt a lot to share the truth with Him because I love him and it hurt to see him in pain...

Thanks for telling me it's clear that tenderness and concern when I witness is lost from me by reading a couple sentences I wrote... I felt a lot of tenderness and concern in that = )

I never said Jesus didn't tell me to preach the good news of the gospel of the Kingdom... I said He didn't tell me to judge people... to go around pointing out people's sin... like to not act all self righteous and make a bunch of judgments about someone without even getting to know them...

 

[mjrhealth]

I honestly do not know how christians could find it in them to love anyone, they have enough trouble loving one another. Could we lett this one die, its time you found some other poor unfortunate group to pick on other then yourselves.

where is the love of Christ

In His Love

 

[Foreigner]

"I didn't say Paul wasn't a christian... I said He wasn't perfect... only Jesus was... so He's my only teacher..." - Robbie

-- But God's Word (including the letters from Paul in the New Testamant) is perfect. Unless you think the information in those letters are wrong....

And how does Jesus teach us? Through His Word, part of which was divinely written by Paul.

Therefore, although Paul was imperfect, what he says in the Bible...is.

Are you saying that is not the case and that the information in Paul's letters are not perfect because he wasn't?



"I said He didn't tell me to judge people... to go around pointing out people's sin... like to not act all self righteous and make a bunch of judgments about someone without even getting to know them..." - Robbie

-- I don't recall anyone telling you to "act all self righteous and make a bunch of judgements about someone without getting to know them."

I don't see anyone calling for you to carry signs, protest, or walk up to anyone with a jumbo Bible, point your finger in their face and yell "Sinner!"

You seem to think that either waiting for someone to approach you or to fire-and-brimstone your way into their lives to criticize them are the only ways to effectively spread God's message.

Do you really think that is the only way to share the message of Jesus and let people know that the sin in their life will lead to eternal seperation from Him?

 

[Robbie]

I think they're perfect in the sense that I can relate to Paul as He grows in the Lord... like when He doesn't understand what's going on inside him... how he wants to do right but keeps doing wrong... I most def relate to that... but I don't think they're perfect in the sense that Paul had perfect understanding... which Paul even says himself... Jesus did have perfect understanding... and Jesus knew exactly why Paul was going through what he was going through because Jesus knew what was in man....

Once again... your responding to something I didn't say... I never said there was only one way to do anything... I only said the way I do it... you should do it the way you do it... I recommend not doing it the way that hateful guy Fred Phelps guy does it... haha... but go ahead and do what you think the Lord's leading you to do...

Question? and don't take this the wrong way... do you argue with people a lot? because I'm feeling right now like you want to argue with me to the point to where you're arguing with stuff I'm not even saying... just saying = )

 

[Foreigner]

"I never said there was only one way to do anything... I only said the way I do it..." - Robbie

-- But if you look back over your posts, you talk about your way and the only OTHER way you present is stating that people "go and point out other people's sins" like all they do is just say, "Hey sinner! You're gonna burn in hell. Better accept Jesus or else."

If you share the Gospel as Christ calls us to do and people ask questions, pointing out the answer in the Scriptures is hardly "judging them" as your posts seem to indicate.

 

[Robbie]

I just said what I do... and what I don't do... I never said there wasn't other ways... you assumed I was saying that... you should ask me questions and I'll share my beliefs... but start telling me who I am based on what you think I might be saying and I'll think you just like to argue... or if you want tell me how you do it... maybe I'll be totally stoked on your way... even if I don't choose to do it... my friend said something the other day... "faith reaches up... love reaches down... the greatest of these is love..." I look at it like fishing... different fish are at different depths and bite different bait... I'm sure if you're in relationship with Jesus and following His personal instruction to you that you're where you're meant to be... as am I...

But remember Jesus didn't really like people thinking others should have to do what He's told them... He would tell people not to worry about what others were doing... but to go do it the way He tells you... and I'll do it the way He tells me... in the end as long as we both build on Christ we're all good...

Be blessed...

 

[horsecamp]

Its funny how Christians can legitimize pretty much ANY expression of HATE/BIGOTRY by reverting back to the bible.

I actually had a chance to document some of these "anti-gay", sign-holding protesters at the LA PRIDE Parade this past summer and its amazing how they justify their hatred.

I recently finished shooting/directing the 2nd episode of my Man-on-the-street web series which airs on the DISH network. We had a chance to interview both traditional pastors as well as gay pastors.

We really felt it was necessary to address the divide that exists between Christianity and Homosexuality and I have to say, its amazing what we have uncovered.

You can view the first Part here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6PqndUJ8P4

And if you decide to continue, here's the 2nd part
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoMbS9B3FoM&a mp;fea...

Please let me know your thoughts

I think you would see a even harsher reaction from these same people ... if you instead were tapping a bunch of child molesters promoting child molesting .

you might even see some bloody fists and faces .



the point is certain sins bring out stronger reactions by people than other sins.

For instances you would see a milder reaction from people if in stead of homosexuals flaunting homosexual sins ..

it was a bunch of alcholics in a parade promoting get drunk through whisky . which is also a sin .



God view of any kind or type of sin.

can clearly be seen in Christ death for that sin No matter how small we humans think it is..

humans on the other hand think of their own sins but lightly hardly a sin at all.


.now i wonder what do you have to say about that ?


is not all sin ghastly should there not even be stronger reaction's to any and all sin ?

especially our own sin's?

if every one did that Their would be no homosexual bashing their would be no homosexual people their would be no child molesters no drunks .

we might even elimanate most sins in deed yet sin in thought and word is also why Christ was crucified for us.

 

[aspen]

I think you would see a even harsher reaction from these same people ... if you instead were tapping a bunch of child molesters promoting child molesting .

Sure. Sex between two consenting adults is much different than an adult engaging in sex with a minor.

you might even see some bloody fists and faces .

Since when is violence ever called for outside of self defense?

the point is certain sins bring out stronger reactions by people than other sins.

Especially sins that are only tempting to 2% of the population.

For instances you would see a milder reaction from people if in stead of homosexuals flaunting homosexual sins ..

it was a bunch of alcholics in a parade promoting get drunk through whisky . which is also a sin .

Drunk drivers flaunt their behavior on parade every morning at 2 PM, all across the country and people die because of it

God view of any kind or type of sin.

So why do Christian fail to follow His example when it come to the nonviolent act / sin of homosexuality?

can clearly be seen in Christ death for that sin No matter how small we humans think it is..

Or how big we make it....it is bad enough they are going to Hell, at least let them eat, drink, and be merry.

humans on the other hand think of their own sins but lightly hardly a sin at all.

Of course - we are too busy thanking God we are not homosexual...

.now i wonder what do you have to say about that ?

I think you are seriously misguided - you asked

is not all sin ghastly should there not even be stronger reaction's to any and all sin ?

Sure - but we do not have any other sins that attract anywhere near the attention as homosexuality does.

especially our own sin's?

Feel free and start a thread about your own sins, if you want too. Although it might be better if you started a confessional booth so that we Christians can have a place to confess our intolerance and hatred towards all the sinners we have condemned.

if every one did that Their would be no homosexual bashing their would be no homosexual people their would be no child molesters no drunks .

Sorry, we are a fallen race - people do not need sexual sin or alcohol to rebel against God. What we need is compassion.

we might even elimanate most sins in deed yet sin in thought and word is also why Christ was crucified for us.

terminal idealism

 

[Foreigner]

Oh my goodness Aspen, are you still at this?


"Drunk drivers flaunt their behavior on parade every morning at 2 PM, all across the country and people die because of it." - Aspen

-- Really? Drunk drivers drive around honking, calling attention to themselves and their behavior, demanding that people accept them for driving drunk and calling people "haters" "judgemental" "vile" etc. etc. etc. because people don't accept the drunk driving lifestyle?

Oh please LOL




"So why do Christian fail to follow His example when it come to the nonviolent act / sin of homosexuality?" - Aspen

-- They do. Jesus pointed out sin, warned of hell, and told people to go and sin no more. He felt their salvation was more important than their comfort level.



"Or how big we make it....it is bad enough they are going to Hell, at least let them eat, drink, and be merry." - Aspen

-- Yes ladies and gentlemen, Aspen said this.
Don't risk offending them. Let them spend eternity in hell. At least we didn't make them uncomfortable here on earth.
After all, they have their rights. I am sure that while they are burning in hell they are going to be saying, "Well at least those Christians are questioning my lifestyle any more."



"Of course - we are too busy thanking God we are not homosexual..." - Aspen

-- A statement like that yet he still seems to think he should be taken seriously.
He made statement in another thread bemoaning inflammatory statements. I guess he was just talking about everybody ELSE.



"Sure - but we do not have any other sins that attract anywhere near the attention as homosexuality does." - Aspen

-- Gosh, and why is that? Could it be, oh I don't know, perhaps because homosexuality is the one sin that we as Americans are being told we are being intolerant and evil because we don't celebrate it or encourage those that do? Ding ding ding ding ding

- Those that steal do not hold parades to celebrate the practice of theft.
- People who are unfaithful to their husband or wife do not demand that society cherish their activities in the name of diversity.
- Those that assault are not demanding that school libraries be stocked with books showing it is natural and should be embraced.
- Those who lie are not demanding that their dishonesty should be looked upon as a positive thing.
- Those who look at children with lust do not demand that those who find this practice vile be fired or boycotted for their lack of tolerance.
- Those that kill are not demanding that their crime be considered an acceptable lifestyle.
- Those that sexually assault others do not call those that speak out against it or refuse to embrace it as "intolerant."

If you can't understand that then...

 

[Robbie]

I wonder how Jesus would handle it if a bunch of Pharisees dragged out a homosexual that was caught in the act of being gay and said that it was commanded in that Law that He should be stoned or something? Would He say you who are without sin be the first to cast a stone and then tell the homosexual that He didn't condemn them either as their accusers walked away? Or would Jesus be like, "Gays are different... kill him!!!"

I think it's interesting that when Jesus was confronted with the woman who was caught in the act of adultery that it's almost a perfect example of what He came here to do for all of us... He protected her from the condemnation that was in the Law, He also forgave Her Himself and didn't condemn her...

 

[[email protected]]

Hi everyone, Pia here.......Well I have been reading all of these posts and cannot believe the attitudes of some of you.
Are you people saying that when Jesus exclaimed on the cross :" It is finished !", that He was lying?
He paid for all the sin of the world, it says....Are you saying that He left something out?????

Did God leave something out?
No, but you may have.

You do not understand the work that was done on the cross.
Q: Exactly WHAT was finished?
A: That which was finished was the sacrifice for sin.

The blood was shed, but it has no effect if it isn't applied to the life of the sinner.

Go back to the book of Exodus and study the events chronicled there.
On the day of the passover, God sent a destroyer throughout Egypt.
Prior to that night, God had sent word that the blood of a slaughtered lamb should be applied to the doorposts and lintel of each house.
When the destroyer came, it would see the blood and pass over the house and those who sheltered within it.
The blood of Christ does the same thing, except permanently for all time, for anyone who accepts it and applies it to his life.
The judgment of God will 'pass over' those who have accepted the blood of Christ in their life.

Conversly, the sacrifice HAS NO EFFECT if you don't APPLY THE BLOOD.

This is the principle of the sacrificial atoning death of Christ upon the cross and how it works.

Jesus once said to me, that we are completely unqualified to judge another human being, as we cannot live in their 'flesh" even for a moment, on top of that, all of you who judge, are judging what God already judged, the flesh, and nothing else.

You have believed a lying spirit, not Christ and you do yourself a disservice.

The Holy Bible is given to enable us to judge the spirits. Those spirits that speak out of context with scripture are not to be heeded.
The Bible DOES NOT say Christians are to refrain from judging. Quite the contrary, WE ARE TO JUDGE and we are even given authority to judge angels.
The Bible DOES SAY that we are to be cautious when doing so, however. St. Paul in later passages even provides a detailed outline as to how to go about doing it.
Christians are commanded, qualified and enable by authority TO JUDGE, but are responsible to judge rightly.
Calling a wrong thing right is irresponsible judging.

Additionally, Christians are to act as watchman with regard to sin (see Ezekiel 3). If we are charged to warn a sinner about his sin and DO NOT DO SO, then God will hold us accountable. If we DO warn the sinner about his sin and he continues in his ways, we are not responsible. The sinner's blood is on his own head.
Christians have a fire within to warn sinners about punishment and to not remain silent.

In this, we are accountable to God - NOT TO SINNERS.

God IS LOVE, it isn't something He has, it is what HE IS !!! We as humans cannot comprehend the LOVE that HE IS.....It is so much higher and so much purer than anything we can imagine or think, and when He does give you the briefest of looks into it, it completely takes your breath away....You would die on the spot ( rather, your flesh would ).

God is indeed love and has provided the payment for sin, but nowhere is it written that at the moment Jesus died on the cross sin evaporated from existance in the world.

Sin remains and we are to war against it.

God is love, but is concerned about deeper things than that at the end of the day a good time will have been had by all.

 

[[email protected]]

I wonder how Jesus would handle it if a bunch of Pharisees dragged out a homosexual that was caught in the act of being gay and said that it was commanded in that Law that He should be stoned or something? Would He say you who are without sin be the first to cast a stone and then tell the homosexual that He didn't condemn them either as their accusers walked away? Or would Jesus be like, "Gays are different... kill him!!!"

I think it's interesting that when Jesus was confronted with the woman who was caught in the act of adultery that it's almost a perfect example of what He came here to do for all of us... He protected her from the condemnation that was in the Law, He also forgave Her Himself and didn't condemn her...

Jesus would turn to the gay man and say as he said to the adulterous woman;
"GO AND SIN NO MORE."
John 8:11

Jesus forgave the woman her sin and will forgive the gay man his sin, but FORGIVENESS IS NEVER LICENSE TO SIN.

READ THE BOOK all you who judge Christians - and having read it, JUDGE RIGHTLY - JUDGE YOURSELVES AS WELL.

 

[aspen]

Oh my goodness Aspen, are you still at this?

As condescending as ever, huh Foreigner?

"Drunk drivers flaunt their behavior on parade every morning at 2 PM, all across the country and people die because of it." - Aspen

-- Really? Drunk drivers drive around honking, calling attention to themselves and their behavior, demanding that people accept them for driving drunk and calling people "haters" "judgemental" "vile" etc. etc. etc. because people don't accept the drunk driving lifestyle?

Oh please LOL

No.......they just kill people

"So why do Christian fail to follow His example when it come to the nonviolent act / sin of homosexuality?" - Aspen

-- They do. Jesus pointed out sin, warned of hell, and told people to go and sin no more. He felt their salvation was more important than their comfort level.

Really? Did Jesus point out the same sin, to the same people, over and over again? It is interesting that Jesus was quite popular with the sinners of His day and quite unpopular with the religiously haughty. People who run around pointing out their disapproval of personal sinner in marginalized groups are not normally endeared to them. Yet Mathew, a tax collector - a man who could not do his indentured job without skimming off the top so he could eat, was not only a beloved disciple, but the author of scripture. You really have this whole thing backwards, Foreigner.

"Or how big we make it....it is bad enough they are going to Hell, at least let them eat, drink, and be merry." - Aspen

-- Yes ladies and gentlemen, Aspen said this.
Don't risk offending them. Let them spend eternity in hell. At least we didn't make them uncomfortable here on earth.
After all, they have their rights. I am sure that while they are burning in hell they are going to be saying, "Well at least those Christians are questioning my lifestyle any more."

Has nothing to do with offending homosexuals - and yes they do have their rights - one of those rights is the pursuit of happiness. And yes, I did make that statement; I have no illusion that I am in the place of God and called to judge my neighbor as myself. It is interesting that Jesus never condemned homosexuality - yet He did condemn religious arrogance. Makes you think, I hope.

"Of course - we are too busy thanking God we are not homosexual..." - Aspen

-- A statement like that yet he still seems to think he should be taken seriously.
He made statement in another thread bemoaning inflammatory statements. I guess he was just talking about everybody ELSE.

There is nothing inflammatory about this statement. I have certainly thanked God that I do not have the terrible burden of dealing with being a homosexual and all the "breaking news" from His followers about how detestable I am in His sight. It is truly a blessing not to have to be tortured in this way.


"Sure - but we do not have any other sins that attract anywhere near the attention as homosexuality does." - Aspen

-- Gosh, and why is that? Could it be, oh I don't know, perhaps because homosexuality is the one sin that we as Americans are being told we are being intolerant and evil because we don't celebrate it or encourage those that do? Ding ding ding ding ding

- Those that steal do not hold parades to celebrate the practice of theft.

Who needs a parade when you can get million dollar bonuses after sending the American economy into the deepest financial pit since the depression?

- People who are unfaithful to their husband or wife do not demand that society cherish their activities in the name of diversity.

Yet we glorify adultery in the media everyday. Millions of church going people, proclaiming to be Christians are living together without being married and I haven't heard a peep about it from you or anyone else on this board.

- Those that assault are not demanding that school libraries be stocked with books showing it is natural and should be embraced.

Yet, our country is embroiled in two wars and showcases violence on TV everyday.

- Those who lie are not demanding that their dishonesty should be looked upon as a positive thing.

Do you make it a practice to ignore our political system?

- Those who look at children with lust do not demand that those who find this practice vile be fired or boycotted for their lack of tolerance.

Um - yes they do. They have even formed a group to try to make it more accepted in our society.


- Those that kill are not demanding that their crime be considered an acceptable lifestyle.

This post is turning into a parade....murders are usually not as interested about being accepted as they are IN MURDERING. And as we all know, every murderer in prison wants you to believe they are innocent.

- Those that sexually assault others do not call those that speak out against it or refuse to embrace it as "intolerant."

Really? Then why was it such a big deal during the 70s and 80s when "date rape" become a crime? Why was stalking so hard to prosecute? Why was it considered impossible to rape a spouse back in the good old days?

If you can't understand that then...

I do understand your need to justify your intolerance; it simply doesn't hold water

 

[Robbie]

Jesus would turn to the gay man and say as he said to the adulterous woman;
"GO AND SIN NO MORE."
John 8:11

Jesus forgave the woman her sin and will forgive the gay man his sin, but FORGIVENESS IS NEVER LICENSE TO SIN.

READ THE BOOK all you who judge Christians - and having read it, JUDGE RIGHTLY - JUDGE YOURSELVES AS WELL.

Obviously he would tell everyone to stop sinning... He had the right to... He was sinless... He was the only person there who was without sin and had the right to condemn... yet when it came down to it He said, "Neither do I condemn you" so my point was that He would protect them from condemnation from the self righteous hypocrites... who saw the woman's sin as so wrong but never took the time to examine themselves and realize they were just as bad.

I wonder how many of the christians who condemn homosexuals don't take the time to examine themselves, "Should we call fire from heaven on them like Elijah?", "You don't know what matter of spirit you're of... the Son didn't come to destroy men's lives but to save them"

I don't see anywhere that Jesus says if you're a homosexual God won't forgive you... but He does say that if you don't forgive others you wont be forgiven... He also says if you condemn others you'll be condemned...

Hope this blesses...

 

[Foreigner]

Drunk drivers flaunt their behavior on parade every morning at 2 PM, all across the country and people die because of it." - Aspen

-- Really? Drunk drivers drive around honking, calling attention to themselves and their behavior, demanding that people accept them for driving drunk and calling people "haters" "judgemental" "vile" etc. etc. etc. because people don't accept the drunk driving lifestyle?

Oh please LOL

No.......they just kill people - Aspen

-- So, accidentally killing people while drunk driving is "flaunting your behavior on parade every morning?" Is English really that big a challenge for you?






"Really? Did Jesus point out the same sin, to the same people, over and over again? It is interesting that Jesus was quite popular with the sinners of His day and quite unpopular with the religiously haughty. People who run around pointing out their disapproval of personal sinner in marginalized groups are not normally endeared to them. " - Aspen

-- Jesus didn't have the same people coming up to him over and over again telling Him he was "wrong" "hateful" "divisive" "evil" etc. etc. etc. because when asked He let it be know that something was a sin. He did however tell people in every single place that he visited that their eternal salvation rested on them turning away from sin.

To say that Christians who will not say that the gay sexual lifestyle is okay are being "religiously haughty" is comical at best.

You continue to deny the fact that the Christians are the ones being attacked. They are asked their opinion and why they feel that way - give the answer, supported by scripture - and are told that they the evil ones causing the spread of hate and division. I guess that is because you are one of the people doing the attacking.

You being an apologist for the behavior of those who do not want to admit they are sinners or change their ways suits you. It really does.






"There is nothing inflammatory about this statement. I have certainly thanked God that I do not have the terrible burden of dealing with being a homosexual and all the "breaking news" from His followers about how detestable I am in His sight. It is truly a blessing not to have to be tortured in this way." - Aspen

-- So there is "nothng inflammatory about saying someone is "TOO BUSY thanking God for not being homosexual..." Uh huh.






"Has nothing to do with offending homosexuals - and yes they do have their rights - one of those rights is the pursuit of happiness." - Aspen

-- But you seem to think that just because it is what would make them happy, it should automatically be made the law of the land and people should never speak negatively of it, even if it goes against scriptures and the person is asked point blank. Your position needs work.






"I have no illusion that I am in the place of God and called to judge my neighbor as myself. " - Aspen

-- But if your brother who is sinning demands to know why you think it is a sin, you are responsible to tell him why. If not, you will have to answer for that later.






"It is interesting that Jesus never condemned homosexuality - yet He did condemn religious arrogance. Makes you think, I hope." - Aspen

-- Jesus also never condemned selling your children into slavery or forcing your wife into prostitution.

Your opinion is the same tired 'explanation' used by churches that allow openly gay non-celibate homosexuals into their clergy - if Jesus didn't specifically speak about something being wrong then how could it possibly not be accepted.

As dangerous as it is dishonest. Makes you think, I hope.






"Who needs a parade when you can get million dollar bonuses after sending the American economy into the deepest financial pit since the depression?" - Aspen

-- You make a poor argument LOL. You will notice that MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Americans - yourself included - are saying outloud, in public, and on public forums that those practices are wrong and they are openly criticizing those that support it. So according to your practices, who are you to criticize when Christians point out that sin is sin?







"Yet we glorify adultery in the media everyday. Millions of church going people, proclaiming to be Christians are living together without being married and I haven't heard a peep about it from you or anyone else on this board." - Aspen

-- The reason you "haven't heard a peep about it" is because no one here has started a thread claiming that a Christian committing adultery is not sinning or that no one has a right to question them or tell them the lifestyle is wrong. Simple stuff, huh?

Feel free to start one, though. I am definitely willing to bet you will get the same lack of support for that idea you get for this topic.






"Yet, our country is embroiled in two wars and showcases violence on TV everyday" - Aspen

-- Please tell me what that has to do with parents being told they have no say as to what is taught to their children in school or what can be stocked in a school's library?

People can and do speak out publically against the two wars and they are celebrated for exercising their rights.

Parents can control what and how much TV their children watch. They are told point blank they have little control over what their children will be taught in school.

You have made a very poor comparison, mi amigo.







"Do you make it a practice to ignore our political system?" - Aspen

-- No, but apparently you do. Americans have the right to vote on what they see fit and support candidates who share their values.
But if those views go against gay marraige, etc. that political system is suddenly criticized and those who use it are "haters" and "dividers."
It is disappointing that you want it both ways.






"Um - yes they do. They have even formed a group to try to make it more accepted in our society." - Aspen

-- And according to your standards, if we oppose what NAMBLA wants we are intruding on their rights - God made them that way and since they had no choice they have every right to pursue happiness via that avenue and we have no right to speak out against them, etc. etc. etc. I don't think so.







"And as we all know, every murderer in prison wants you to believe they are innocent." - Aspen

-- Just as every gay person in America wants you to believe that there is nothing wrong with their lifestyle, God would not condemn them, and those that are claiming it is a sin are the true villains. Honestly, are arguments like this what you are reduced to?





"I do understand your need to justify your intolerance; " - Aspen

-- When a homosexual or a homosexual rights supporter approaches me demanding to know why Christians won't sanction the gay lifestyle and gay sexual activity and I show them using scripture that it is GOD who opposes it.....I am "justifying my intolerance."

Riiiiiiiiiiiight. :lol:

 

[aspen]

-- So, accidentally killing people while drunk driving is "flaunting your behavior on parade every morning?" Is English really that big a challenge for you?

Are you kidding? You are actually defending drunk driving as an accident? Wow - the lengths you are willing to go.....

-- Jesus didn't have the same people coming up to him over and over again telling Him he was "wrong" "hateful" "divisive" "evil" etc. etc. etc. because when asked He let it be know that something was a sin. He did however tell people in every single place that he visited that their eternal salvation rested on them turning away from sin.

Right....I keep forgetting... your the real victim of homosexual sin....


So Jesus eat with new sinners ever night?

To say that Christians who will not say that the gay sexual lifestyle is okay are being "religiously haughty" is comical at best.


Mm-hmm, Christians are the good guys aspen. HAughtiness has nothing to do with actual behavior - it only has to do whether you are a good guy or a bad guy.

You continue to deny the fact that the Christians are the ones being attacked. They are asked their opinion and why they feel that way - give the answer, supported by scripture - and are told that they the evil ones causing the spread of hate and division. I guess that is because you are one of the people doing the attacking.


Incredible. Blessed are the slave owners, for they will be persecuted by their property.....Blessed are the wife beaters, they will have to endure protest from their spouse..........your understanding of the gospel is dangerous. You cannot be a victim of the natural consequences of your actions.

You being an apologist for the behavior of those who do not want to admit they are sinners or change their ways suits you. It really does.


If that were true I would refuse to acknowledge homosexuality as a sin. The fact is, your anger is not directed at me for defending homosexuals at all - you are truly mad because I recognize it as a sin and therefore, you cannot completely dismiss me.


"Has nothing to do with offending homosexuals - and yes they do have their rights - one of those rights is the pursuit of happiness." - Aspen

-- But you seem to think that just because it is what would make them happy, it should automatically be made the law of the land and people should never speak negatively of it, even if it goes against scriptures and the person is asked point blank. Your position needs work.


Take down the strawman. How can I be arguing that homosexuality should not be spoken negatively against when I call it a sin. I am rightly saying it is none of your business what two consenting adults do in their bedroom - you would agree with me as long as I didn't include homosexuals. I am also saying that Jesus did not end relationships with people based on their sins.


"I have no illusion that I am in the place of God and called to judge my neighbor as myself. " - Aspen

-- But if your brother who is sinning demands to know why you think it is a sin, you are responsible to tell him why. If not, you will have to answer for that later.


Of course, I am not talking about reasonable conversations between 'brothers' and neither are homosexuals. If they ask me why I believe homosexuality is a sin, I tell them. Funny thing though - although I've lived in SF and Eugene OR for most of my life, I've never been ask by a homosexual why Christians, let alone me believe homosexuality is a sin. They already know the answer.

Your opinion is the same tired 'explanation' used by churches that allow openly gay non-celibate homosexuals into their clergy - if Jesus didn't specifically speak about something being wrong then how could it possibly not be accepted.

As dangerous as it is dishonest. Makes you think, I hope.


Perhaps - if I was trying to condone homosexuality in the church. I agree - your strawman is tired and dishonest. You are refusing to see that Jesus condemned religious arrogance over and over and over again, while defending the sinners (not their behavior) the arrogant were condemning.


"Who needs a parade when you can get million dollar bonuses after sending the American economy into the deepest financial pit since the depression?" - Aspen

-- You make a poor argument LOL. You will notice that MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Americans - yourself included - are saying outloud, in public, and on public forums that those practices are wrong and they are openly criticizing those that support it. So according to your practices, who are you to criticize when Christians point out that sin is sin?


Clever! Except one again, you refuse to acknowledge that I believe both practices are sinful and I have no problem have a civil discussion about it with rich people or homosexuals. I have stated the true problem I am having with Christian behavior that I have witnessed consistently, many times; arrogance, disgust, disdain, pious condemnation, condescending preaching and misplaced aggression against homosexuals under the guise of 'saving souls' is hate mongering and scapegoating.


Also, you are not being persecuted - you are suffering the consequences of breaking a new norm of society. It is now socially unacceptable to speak negatively against homosexuals - it is considered intolerant. After our conversations over the past few months, I can see why this is more of a problem for you than I first realized because we, two Christians - both agree that homosexuality is a sin can barely talk about the issue. Your language is condescending, your position is arrogant and use dismissing, absolute language in an attempt to discredit me. I am not complaining - when I get tired of it I simply stop talking to you - my point is your message is you appear to be more concerned about being right than about the person you are talking to. I am bring this up because if a brother in the Lord can barely stand listening to the language you choose to express yourself with - how much more offensive is a homosexual going to take it?


Now the really sad part is I can can predict what you are going to say -'the true gospel is offensive'. Ok, so I guess it is your job to go out into the world and offend as many people as possible - sounds like a sad life too me. Jesus was loved by sinners and hated by the religiously proud - yet he never condoned sin. This is how I want to live my life.


"Yet we glorify adultery in the media everyday. Millions of church going people, proclaiming to be Christians are living together without being married and I haven't heard a peep about it from you or anyone else on this board." - Aspen

-- The reason you "haven't heard a peep about it" is because no one here has started a thread claiming that a Christian committing adultery is not sinning or that no one has a right to question them or tell them the lifestyle is wrong. Simple stuff, huh?


Sure is. No one is killing the messenger. Many people are concerned about how the message is presented. Your contempt for being told to curtail your harsh and condemning language is making you mad. Deal with it.


"Yet, our country is embroiled in two wars and showcases violence on TV everyday" - Aspen

-- Please tell me what that has to do with parents being told they have no say as to what is taught to their children in school or what can be stocked in a school's library?


Absolutely nothing. You are spending your time on a molehill, when there are mountains to be dealt with. If you do not like the school system run for the school board or put your kids in a charter school or home school. Or hey, heres an idea, talk to your kids about what they are learning in school and have a civil conversation about the different values being presented!

"Do you make it a practice to ignore our political system?" - Aspen

-- No, but apparently you do. Americans have the right to vote on what they see fit and support candidates who share their values.
But if those views go against gay marraige, etc. that political system is suddenly criticized and those who use it are "haters" and "dividers."
It is disappointing that you want it both ways.

No. Politicians are liars. We know that. We expect it. We vote for them anyway. Yet we condemn homosexuals.


"Um - yes they do. They have even formed a group to try to make it more accepted in our society." - Aspen

-- And according to your standards, if we oppose what NAMBLA wants we are intruding on their rights - God made them that way and since they had no choice they have every right to pursue happiness via that avenue and we have no right to speak out against them, etc. etc. etc. I don't think so.

Absolutely not. Pedophilia is not only a sin like homosexuality, it is also like rape - it is sex between an adult and a non-consenting partner (or victim). Homosexuality is sex between two consenting adults. No sexual behavior can ever be condone, which involves a victim.