Christian "gay Bashing"

[marksman]

Reading between the lines is not an answer; nor is pointing out posts that you believe are smug - you need to tell me how you determine them to be smug.

A typical answer from a person who is smug and self righteous.

Thankyou for letting me know that you have no idea how I preach to homosexuals and that your remark was just a beat up because you like to let us know that you know everything.

Thankyou for admitting that you have no idea how to preach to homosexuals because you have never done it.

Your non answers are a bit like the alleged criminal who is asked "did you kill the victim" and he replies "no comment" which usually means yes.

 

[aspen]

A typical answer from a person who is smug and self righteous.

Thankyou for letting me know that you have no idea how I preach to homosexuals and that your remark was just a beat up because you like to let us know that you know everything.

Thankyou for admitting that you have no idea how to preach to homosexuals because you have never done it.

Your non answers are a bit like the alleged criminal who is asked "did you kill the victim" and he replies "no comment" which usually means yes.

I see you are merely interested in name-calling. Sounds more like a yapping dog, rather than a clanging gong.....

Get back to me when you are serious - in the meantime, I am sure will continue your pious scoffing and mocking that you try to pass off as witnessing. Thanks for making it harder for all of us who love sinners and pray for them to learn about Christ's love, by your efforts to ridicule them into the Kingdom. I will pray that Christ will use His people to undo the damage.

 

[aspen]

I see you are merely interested in name-calling. Sounds more like a yapping dog than a clanging gong.....

Get back to me when you are serious - in the meantime, I am sure you will continue your pious scoffing and mocking that you try to pass off as witnessing. Thanks for making it harder for all of us who love sinners and pray for them to learn about Christ's love, by your efforts to ridicule them into the Kingdom. I will pray that Christ will use His people to undo the damage.

............................................................................................

 

[bud02]

:unsure: Looks like you need one of these warning signs as well

Proverbs 4:16

 

[[email protected]]

Obviously he would tell everyone to stop sinning... He had the right to... He was sinless... He was the only person there who was without sin and had the right to condemn... yet when it came down to it He said, "Neither do I condemn you" so my point was that He would protect them from condemnation from the self righteous hypocrites... who saw the woman's sin as so wrong but never took the time to examine themselves and realize they were just as bad.

I wonder how many of the christians who condemn homosexuals don't take the time to examine themselves, "Should we call fire from heaven on them like Elijah?", "You don't know what matter of spirit you're of... the Son didn't come to destroy men's lives but to save them"

I don't see anywhere that Jesus says if you're a homosexual God won't forgive you... but He does say that if you don't forgive others you wont be forgiven... He also says if you condemn others you'll be condemned...

Hope this blesses...

Well written effort to avoid the issue entirely. The issue being sin.
Those who wish to justify and continue their sinful ways attempt to hide their intentions by accusing others.

The debate is NOT about those who have no sin, but about those who DO.
The purpose of law and religion is to define that which is not acceptable by law and which is abhorrent by religion.
Accusing the messenger doesn't change the fact that sin is sin.

The answer to sin is forgiveness which Jesus grants without hesitation.
Forgiveness is granted so that the sinner can correct his ways and walk as God intended, therefore does Our Lord qualify His forgiveness by saying, "Go and sin no more".
The attitude of perpetual indulgence is a lie, promoting a judgment in life as well as eternity.
FORGIVENESS IS NOT A LICENSE TO SIN.

I note a singular design to avoid this subject and to continue unjust attacks upon religion, thus furthering the agenda of Satan itself.

 

[Foreigner]

Once again, I have lived a good deal of my life in cities with large populations of homosexuals and I currently have 4 homosexual friends who know I am Catholic - they have never asked my why I believe homosexuality is a sin and two of them went to Midnight Mass with me this last Christmas.

-- Hmmmm....they have never asked and you have never told them.

Sounds like a perfect scenerio where you assume they MUST know you believe homosexuality is a sin, and they assume that since you have never spoken of it one way or another you must be in their corner on this issue.

What a unique way to spread the Gospel -- doing...absolutely... nothing.


Just curious. If you are friends with these people, never discussing the area in their lives that God says needs to be addressed, and one of them dies, do you really think telling God, "But I was just loving them and not being critical" is going to satisfy Him when He asks why you didn't do more.


I have one person who is homosexual who I would consider a true friend. He and I know where each other stand, have had several discussions - an ongoing discussion, if you will - and while we disagree, we are still very close. Honesty and openness tend to do that.

All I can say is - if you are going to take a hardline with homosexuals, at least take responsibility for the fallout. I think it is sad that you believe you are entitled to provided commentary on people's lives and than cry about being persecuted for doing so.

-- So, speaking in support of what the Gospel teaches is "taking the hardline with homosexuals."

Answering gently but truthfully when approached and asked by homosexuals why their lifestyle is wrong in God's eyes is "taking the hardline with homosexuals."

You're right. It is so much better if you just let them live their lives as they wish and not point out the truth to them.

When they die in their sin God will be satisfied that you at 'loved them with tolerance' instead of trying to save their eternal soul.

Good luck with that.


As far as being "persecuted" I would ask you to provide the specific quote where I said that I was being persecuted for sharing my faith with homosexuals.
Please be specific as I am fairly certain I have never said that and you are full of beans. Here's your big chance...




In my town we have two state-run universities, a private college, a 2-year college, and two business schools. At the start of every quarter/semester they allow booths for businesses, churches, local organizations, etc.

My church has a booth at every one of those events. The literature states simply that we are a Jesus-loving church and all are welcome. Nothing in our documentations lists homosexuality in any form for any reason. But since homosexual groups at these colleges know where we stand, they always come to our booths to make scenes. Sometimes though we do get those who are genuinely curious and we are able to speak and they are civil.

We have a number of homosexuals within our church. Some come to worship but still choose to live the homosexual lifestyle, claiming a 'life partner' or simply still participating in homosexual sex with random partners. They are still welcome to come and we offer counseling.

Many come forward for prayer and some - by their own testimony - have claimed to be healed. At least two are now married and one has children.

Those who do not repent are still welcome and loved, but they know where the church stands on their lifestyle.

Each is approached (just as everyone who comes to our church but doesn't seek membership are approached) and prayer and counseling are offered.

We do not close the door to those who choose not to reject that lifestyle, but they know where we stand and if they continue to attend they are visited with regularly out of love.

To do otherwise would be unfair to them and possibly give them a false illusion that their lifestyle has no eternal repercussions.

Obviously a different idea than you embrace.

 

[aspen]

[/color]

-- Hmmmm....they have never asked and you have never told them.

Actually, one of my friends has mentioned the Catholic position on homosexuality - she was raised Catholic and I affirmed it.

What a unique way to spread the Gospel -- doing...absolutely... nothing.

So, unless I am mentioning the error of homosexuality every time I see my friends, I am doing nothing?

Just curious. If you are friends with these people, never discussing the area in their lives that God says needs to be addressed, and one of them dies, do you really think telling God, "But I was just loving them and not being critical" is going to satisfy Him when He asks why you didn't do more.

Since God calls us to love and not judge, I believe He will call me a faithful servant. BTW, none of these friends of mine claim to be Christian.

I have one person who is homosexual who I would consider a true friend. He and I know where each other stand, have had several discussions - an ongoing discussion, if you will - and while we disagree, we are still very close. Honesty and openness tend to do that.

Implying that I am not being honest or open with my friends......nice


-- So, speaking in support of what the Gospel teaches is "taking the hardline with homosexuals."

It can be, especially if it is applied to nonbelievers outside the church.

Answering gently but truthfully when approached and asked by homosexuals why their lifestyle is wrong in God's eyes is "taking the hardline with homosexuals."

If this is what you are doing, then I have no problem with it, at all - this kind of interaction is not what the person who started this thread is speaking out against.

You're right. It is so much better if you just let them live their lives as they wish and not point out the truth to them.

Ah sarcasm.....the balm of Gilead.

When they die in their sin God will be satisfied that you at 'loved them with tolerance' instead of trying to save their eternal soul.


I am not the person in charge of saving anyone's soul. I am called to love. Perhaps this is your problem - you think that you are the one responsible for saving their souls.

As far as being "persecuted" I would ask you to provide the specific quote where I said that I was being persecuted for sharing my faith with homosexuals.
Please be specific as I am fairly certain I have never said that and you are full of beans. Here's your big chance...

I didn't say that you were being persecuted for sharing your faith with homosexuals. I said that you are claiming to be persecuted for taking a hard line with homosexuals - you are claiming that Christians are being persecuted for sharing their viewpoint about homosexuality being sinful. Then I told you to suck it up.

We have a number of homosexuals within our church. Some come to worship but still choose to live the homosexual lifestyle, claiming a 'life partner' or simply still participating in homosexual sex with random partners. They are still welcome to come and we offer counseling.

Many come forward for prayer and some - by their own testimony - have claimed to be healed. At least two are now married and one has children.

Those who do not repent are still welcome and loved, but they know where the church stands on their lifestyle.

Each is approached (just as everyone who comes to our church but doesn't seek membership are approached) and prayer and counseling are offered.

We do not close the door to those who choose not to reject that lifestyle, but they know where we stand and if they continue to attend they are visited with regularly out of love.

To do otherwise would be unfair to them and possibly give them a false illusion that their lifestyle has no eternal repercussions.

Obviously a different idea than you embrace.

On the contrary, it is exactly how I approach the issue. For one thing, I have been addressing homosexuals outside the church. For another, I have never backed away from the Biblical teaching that homosexuality is a sin.

So here are a few of my questions for you:


Why do you believe that I am advocating Christians change their viewpoint on homosexuality as being sinful?
Why are you suggesting that I believe homosexuality is not sinful?
Why are you claiming that I am talking about homosexuality in the church - when I have been clearly talking about homosexual rights outside the church?

 

[Foreigner]

"Actually, one of my friends has mentioned the Catholic position on homosexuality - she was raised Catholic and I affirmed it." - Aspen

-- One friend out of four. Affirmed it for one out of four. Impressive.



"So, unless I am mentioning the error of homosexuality every time I see my friends, I am doing nothing?" - Aspen

-- Of course not silly. But once might be helpful to them.

You picked a very immature and transparent linguistic maneuver.
Like the pastor's wife who mentioned to the woman that perhaps she was showing too much cleavage in church and the woman responding with, "Oh, so I have to wear a Burka to come to church here!"

You sound juuuuuuuuuuuuust like her :lol:


"Since God calls us to love and not judge, I believe He will call me a faithful servant." - Aspen

-- God also calls us - all of us, even you - to preach the Gospel (Mark 16:15). You being a "good friend" and not sharing that Gospel is actually a contradiction. Yours is the perfect example of loving someone to death....theirs.




"BTW, none of these friends of mine claim to be Christian." - Aspen

-- I have absolutely no doubt that is an accurate statement.




"It can be, especially if it is applied to nonbelievers outside the church." - Aspen

-- Call me crazy but isn't that who God said our target audience is in Mark 16:15?




"I am not the person in charge of saving anyone's soul. I am called to love." - Aspen

-- So you think that trying to help someone avoid eternal damnation and loving them....are to exclusive and seperate things? Amazing. Simply amazing.




"I said that you are claiming to be persecuted for taking a hard line with homosexuals" - Aspen

-- I never claimed to be "persecuted" when homosexuals get angry and want to disagree.
I never even complained that it was "unfair" or that "my feelings get hurt." lol

If someone asks you a question, you answer in tenderness and honesty and they get furious, THEY are the ones with the problem.

Your definition of the word "persecution" is world's apart from the actual definition, my friend.




"On the contrary, it is exactly how I approach the issue. For one thing, I have been addressing homosexuals outside the church." - Aspen

-- Except for three of the four homosexual friends you have, though, right?

Still, I find it difficult that a man who says, "it is bad enough that they are going to Hell, at least let them eat, drink, and be merry" is actually "addressing homosexuals outside the church."

One could take from that statement that you aren't doing anything at all to try to help them...except of course being called to "love"....which apparently translates into "not assisting them in finding salvation."



"I have never backed away from the Biblical teaching that homosexuality is a sin." - Aspen

-- I don't doubt that.
You've just never been interested in sharing that in a loving way with those who are actually engaged in that sin in order to try to help them find happiness in Jesus and deliverance from eternal damnation.

You would rather love them than make sure they are saved. I got that.




"Why do you believe that I am advocating Christians change their viewpoint on homosexuality as being sinful?" - Aspen

-- You're not. You're just telling Christians to keep that opinion to themselves, lest homosexuals be offended by the message....the only message that will save their lives.

"Why are you suggesting that I believe homosexuality is not sinful?" - Aspen

-- I am not. I am suggesting that you don't seem to think it important enough to share with them that their sin will cause them eternal damnation if they don't turn away. You would rather "love" them than help save them, missing the fact that the greatest act of love you could show them would be helping them see the light even if it makes them uncomfortable.

"Why are you claiming that I am talking about homosexuality in the church - when I have been clearly talking about homosexual rights outside the church?" - Aspen

-- I know you are speaking about homosexual rights outside the church. You also accuse anyone who will not keep silent about their views of homosexuality of browbeating homosexuals.

You also have a rather confused idea of what a "right" is sometimes. Just because you think you deserve something does NOT automatically mean you have a right to it.

And just because someone opposes you having something you want does not automatically make them a violator of your rights. Especially if the opposition is done using the same fair, legal, and accepted methods available to them who advocate.
Campaigning, raising money, and voting, for example...

 

[aspen]

"Actually, one of my friends has mentioned the Catholic position on homosexuality - she was raised Catholic and I affirmed it." - Aspen

-- One friend out of four. Affirmed it for one out of four. Impressive.

Are we keeping score? Is there a quota?


"So, unless I am mentioning the error of homosexuality every time I see my friends, I am doing nothing?" - Aspen

-- Of course not silly. But once might be helpful to them. You picked a very immature and transparent linguistic maneuver.
Like the pastor's wife who mentioned to the woman that perhaps she was showing too much cleavage in church and the woman responding with, "Oh, so I have to wear a Burka to come to church here!"You sound juuuuuuuuuuuuust like her :lol:

Really? Did the pastor's wife mention that the women should wear clothing to church because showing cleavage is the same as being naked? You were that extreme when you claimed I was doing nothing - your word, not mine - silly


"Since God calls us to love and not judge, I believe He will call me a faithful servant." - Aspen

-- God also calls us - all of us, even you - to preach the Gospel (Mark 16:15). You being a "good friend" and not sharing that Gospel is actually a contradiction. Yours is the perfect example of loving someone to death....theirs.

Sharing the gospel is sharing a loving relationship with your neighbor - one that reflects our relationship with Christ. Sharing doctrine is only a small part of the gospel. Granted it is important, but timing is also important. Sharing the gospel should be a tag team sport - it is my hope is to be a cog in the wheel, so to speak - I want to do my part by helping my neighbor look forward to the next Christian they will meet, rather than to avoid them. I trust God has a plan and I am not always going to be the person who "closes the deal".


"BTW, none of these friends of mine claim to be Christian." - Aspen

-- I have absolutely no doubt that is an accurate statement.

Good. I am glad that you can see that homosexuals usually leave the church when they become sexually active because they do not feel welcome.


"It can be, especially if it is applied to nonbelievers outside the church." - Aspen

-- Call me crazy but isn't that who God said our target audience is in Mark 16:15?

Your crazy! Yes, nonbelievers need to hear the gospel - which is why it is so important to make sure the message is presented in a manner they can hear and accept.


"I am not the person in charge of saving anyone's soul. I am called to love." - Aspen

-- So you think that trying to help someone avoid eternal damnation and loving them....are to exclusive and seperate things? Amazing. Simply amazing.

Slow down! I believe loving God and my neighbor IS the gospel, which can be specified with doctrine. You seem to think doctrine is the gospel an some crazy Christians out there keep whining about some such thing as love.....

I certainly do not believe that I am solely responsible for the salvation of a soul - God uses lots of people in the Body before the HS justifies and begins the process of sanctification in a person's life.


"I said that you are claiming to be persecuted for taking a hard line with homosexuals" - Aspen

-- I never claimed to be "persecuted" when homosexuals get angry and want to disagree.
I never even complained that it was "unfair" or that "my feelings get hurt." lol

Yet, you deny homosexuals equal rights under US law and cannot understand why people give you negative feedback or do not allow you to consider sexual orientation when hiring or renting housing.

If someone asks you a question, you answer in tenderness and honesty and they get furious, THEY are the ones with the problem. Your definition of the word "persecution" is world's apart from the actual definition, my friend.

Actually, my definition of persecution is usually reserved for prison, physical abuse, or death. However, I have encountered quite a few religious people who use the word to describe their position.

Why are you surprised that people who do not share your faith, feel angry when you critique their behavior by the standard of Christian doctrine?


"On the contrary, it is exactly how I approach the issue. For one thing, I have been addressing homosexuals outside the church." - Aspen

-- Except for three of the four homosexual friends you have, though, right?

None of the friends I have who are homosexual are Christian.

Still, I find it difficult that a man who says, "it is bad enough that they are going to Hell, at least let them eat, drink, and be merry" is actually "addressing homosexuals outside the church."

Why? I can still love them and allow them to make personal choices.

One could take from that statement that you aren't doing anything at all to try to help them...except of course being called to "love"....which apparently translates into "not assisting them in finding salvation."

Once again, love IS the gospel. Love leads people to Christ - not signs, tracts, or booths. Doctrine is only a small part of the process. It looks to me like you have it backwards. Doctrine doesn't save.


"I have never backed away from the Biblical teaching that homosexuality is a sin." - Aspen

-- I don't doubt that.
You've just never been interested in sharing that in a loving way with those who are actually engaged in that sin in order to try to help them find happiness in Jesus and deliverance from eternal damnation.

I agree with the person who started this thread. Homosexuals are not receptive to the old presentation of the gospel - they have already heard it and rejected it - therefore, it is time to start getting serious by loving and serving them and listening to them and presenting doctrine in our actions before using words.

You would rather love them than make sure they are saved. I got that.

I refuse to separate love and making sure they are saved - where in the Bible does it tell us to make sure the people we are loving through service are saved? That phrase is derived "being born again", from the Great Awakening in early 18th century America.


"Why do you believe that I am advocating Christians change their viewpoint on homosexuality as being sinful?" - Aspen

-- You're not. You're just telling Christians to keep that opinion to themselves, lest homosexuals be offended by the message....the only message that will save their lives.

Nope. I am asking Christians to modify the presentation of their opinions because their current method is doing more harm than good.

"Why are you suggesting that I believe homosexuality is not sinful?" - Aspen

-- I am not. I am suggesting that you don't seem to think it important enough to share with them that their sin will cause them eternal damnation if they don't turn away. You would rather "love" them than help save them, missing the fact that the greatest act of love you could show them would be helping them see the light even if it makes them uncomfortable.

Nope. Love IS the gospel. I trust that Christ will use as many people necessary during His salvation process. You seem to be taking the entire process on your shoulders. Their comfort is not my main concern - bringing down their defensiveness is. As soon as their defenses appear, we've lost their attention. You might see them as attacking you - I see them as hurt and wonder where I stopped caring about them less then the doctrine I am preaching.

"Why are you claiming that I am talking about homosexuality in the church - when I have been clearly talking about homosexual rights outside the church?" - Aspen

-- I know you are speaking about homosexual rights outside the church. You also accuse anyone who will not keep silent about their views of homosexuality of browbeating homosexuals.

Nope. Once again, I am questioning the presentation.

You also have a rather confused idea of what a "right" is sometimes. Just because you think you deserve something does NOT automatically mean you have a right to it.

According to the Constitution, homosexuals have the right to the pursuit of happiness.

And just because someone opposes you having something you want does not automatically make them a violator of your rights. Especially if the opposition is done using the same fair, legal, and accepted methods available to them who advocate.

I agree. But when the person who opposes a homosexual, and then goes out and votes for prop 8 - they have crossed the line between opinion and violating a person's rights. When Fred Phelps decides to picket a homosexual's funeral - laws need to be passed to stop his actions. When homosexuals are murdered because they are gay - laws need to be passed that address the issue, specifically.

Campaigning, raising money, and voting, for example...

You have the right to participate in all those activities - and I have the right to oppose all of them.

 

[Robbie]

I love all my friends that are gay... I just love them... I have one friend that was tripping me out because he was being unfaithful to his boyfriend in front of me... that was actually the only thing that made me feel uncomfortable because he was betraying someone's trust... hopefully in me loving them unconditionally they'll be drawn to Jesus who loved us unconditionally by dieing for our sins when we were at our worst... and as far as the expectations people try to put on me to tell homosexuals they're wrong I'll leave that up to Jesus since He's the only teacher and the only one who's sin free and worthy to execute judgment... but if any of you are without sin go ahead and let everyone else know how wrong they are... as for me I know I have no right to judge.

BLESSING FROM THE MOST HIGH FATHER OF LOVE!!!

 

[marksman]

I will leave aspen to drown in his self righteous superiority and talk about reality.

Having ministered for two years in a full time capacity to those trapped in a SSA, and studied it for a long time before starting the ministry, you get to learn something along the way.

Homosexuality is a stronghold of satan's because it is a distortion of the bedrock of God's creation, the family. God expresses himself like no other through the family so you don't need rocket science to work out that he going to try and steal, kill and destroy God's foundation of the family.

The thrust of the ministry was that they did not have to be celibate to be part of it, but they had to want to be free from the activity. You show your acceptance of them by takiing them as you find them. At no time did we give the impression that if they did not want to change, we would still love them and say no more.

The fact that they were very clear what I and the church believed about the topic made them more determined to beat the habit. Accepting them was our side of the bargain as we supported them in their struggles. Wanting to change was their side of the bargain.

Come in brother, you are most welcome and you can sin as much as you like just doesn't work. It conveys the message that if they don't care about me being sexually active every night of the week, why should I. Without them having a conviction of their sin, you are wasting your time. Which is not surprising as anyone who has a problem, violence, fornication, stealing, drugs, swearing, drinkiing etc, will not find release unless they admit they have a problem and that they need to change.

Having been trained by Teen Challenge in drug rehabilitation ministry, their watchword is it has to be more painful to keep taking drugs than it is to be free of them for a druggie to change and want to change. Their are consequences in being homosexual such as higher rates of STDs and suicide, and not least death by AIDS, so they will have to weigh up whether they want to keep taking the risks or take the less painful route and submit to wise counsel and kick the habit.

Homosexuals want love desperately so if that is all you give, you won't solve their problem because they will just milk you for all you are worth. True love always warns of any danger that may be on the horizon. To not do so is not love it is cruelty because you are condeming that person to a life of misery and failure when you could make a difference.

When homosexuals are murdered because they are gay - laws need to be passed that address the issue, specifically.

Laws against murder were passed hundreds of years ago for the sole purpose of bringing to account anyone who murders anyone. You can't get more specific than that.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I would like to proudly say I have not read one word here or clicked onto this thread til now,
to practice the sin of pride and say I will never participate
in a thread with the word gay or homosexual in it.
I see there are 430 posts.
I am glad I never took part.
This may upset some - oh well, I'm just sayin'...it's like
flipping the channel
when I see limbs being ripped off - personal choice.

 

[Foreigner]

hopefully in me loving them unconditionally they'll be drawn to Jesus who loved us unconditionally by dieing for our sins when we were at our worst...

-- Unless you have let them know that their homosexual lifestyle is not approved of by that Jesus you speak of, you are at best leaving them with the wrong assumption about you and at worst putting them at risk of eternity in hell. God save me from friends like this.

and as far as the expectations people try to put on me to tell homosexuals they're wrong I'll leave that up to Jesus since He's the only teacher and the only one who's sin free and worthy to execute judgment...

-- And how does Jesus let sinners (all sinners, not just homosexuals) know about His expectations? He uses the flawed, forgiven Christians to share the message.
Mark 16:15 says "preach" the good news. "Preach" as in not just loving but verbally sharing so they understand.
You obviously don't want the job and are hoping that some other Christian is up to the task. For the sake of their eternal souls I hope so, too.

but if any of you are without sin go ahead and let everyone else know how wrong they are... as for me I know I have no right to judge.

-- Ah, yes, the cliche used by Christians and non-Christians alike to try to say that Christians have no role in helping people learn who Jesus is other than "loving" them.

Typical. Sad, but typical. That line of reasoning falls apart when you realize that most Christians are Christians BECAUSE another Christian shared God's word with them, in fulfillment of God's requirement in Mark 16:15.

Atheists, Agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists are all able to show strong, unselfish love.
According to your standard they are sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ just as well as you are.

 

[Foreigner]

"Are we keeping score? Is there a quota?" - Aspen

-- Nope. And if you are satisfied with having only one of the four homosexual non-Christians you count as friends know where you stand on their salvation, more power to you.



"were that extreme when you claimed I was doing nothing -" - Aspen

-- Hmmm. Purposefully not sharing God's message with the sinners you count as your friends in order to help save them from eternal damnation.
Sure SOUNDS like 'nothing.'



"Good. I am glad that you can see that homosexuals usually leave the church when they become sexually active because they do not feel welcome." - Aspen

-- If the Church not being willing to tell them that their sexual activity is a good thing is "do not feel welcome" then yes, I agree with you.
Most churches welcome and love homosexuals. But when homosexuals are not able to get the positive affirmation of their orientation or sexual activity, many choose to live.



"Yes, nonbelievers need to hear the gospel - which is why it is so important to make sure the message is presented in a manner they can hear and accept." - Aspen

-- And just how can they "hear' it if you are not saying it. Just 'loving' them is not letting them hear it.
As I told Robbie, Atheists, Agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. can all love sincerely, completely, and non-judgementally.
According to his standard (and apparently yours, too) they are preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
And the the conversion rate of their friends to Christianity likely mirrors yours.


"Yet, you deny homosexuals equal rights under US law and cannot understand why people give you negative feedback " - Aspen

-- I personally have done this? Really? When? Please be specific.
Or are you making another one of your patented blanket accusations again?



"Why? I can still love them and allow them to make personal choices." - Aspen

-- Of course. Accepting Jesus can only be done through free will.
Of course, if you don't let them know WHY it is important they love Jesus, are you really loving them?
That's called loving them....to death.


"Once again, love IS the gospel. Love leads people to Christ - not signs, tracts, or booths. Doctrine is only a small part of the process. It looks to me like you have it backwards. Doctrine doesn't save." - Aspen

-- But if that 'love' gives them the impression that the sin they are committing is alright and that they will not have to answer for it.........is it really love?



"Nope. I am asking Christians to modify the presentation of their opinions because their current method is doing more harm than good." - Aspen

-- And that is your problem. You lump all Christians into using a "current method." That is either ignorance or dishonesty on your part. Hopefully it is just simple ignorance.



"Actually, my definition of persecution is usually reserved for prison, physical abuse, or death. However, I have encountered quite a few religious people who use the word to describe their position." - Aspen

-- But contrary to your original claim I am not one of them. You should at least admit that.



"I refuse to separate love and making sure they are saved" - Aspen

-- I agree with you 100%. But if you are just 'loving' them but haven't chosen to make them aware that Jesus does not approve of their lifestyle thenyou are doing just that - loving them but making sure they are NOT saved.



"Nope. Once again, I am questioning the presentation." - Aspen

-- Yes. You feel that if a Christin ever shares the Gospel with a homosexual who doesn't first request the interaction - regardless of how it is introduced or the tone taken - then they are wrong.



"- they have already heard it and rejected it - " - Aspen

-- Actually that is not always the case. In several instances that is not the case.
Many have heard the vitriol spoken about Christians from others including members fo groups they belong to and are basing their opinions on 2nd-hand info.
Many of the homosexuals I have spoken with - some in their 30s and 40s have never set foot inside a church or had a one-to-one conversation with a Christian.
They have never had someone speak to them personally about the love, redemption and healing powers that a relationship with Jesus can give.



"According to the Constitution, homosexuals have the right to the pursuit of happiness." - Aspen

-- Very true. The Constitution guarantees all of us the right to the 'pursuit of happiness.'
Please notice that the Constitution doesn't give any of us the GUARANTEE of happiness.

People pursue what they feel will make them happy all the time, with the Constitution's blessing.
But just because they did not achieve the happiness they desired, that does not automatically mean their Constitutional rights have been violated.

You seem incapable of comprehending the distinction.



" But when the person who opposes a homosexual, and then goes out and votes for prop 8 - they have crossed the line between opinion and violating a person's rights." - Aspen

-- Really? Exercising your Constitutional right to vote your conscious on a legally balloted issue is "violating a person's rights?"

You may be a lot of things, my friend, but Constitutionally knowledgeable is NOT one of them.

No judge or court ANYWHERE has said that 'voting' for an idea - specifically Prop 8 - is violating a person's rights. Period.

I am sorry but it being your opinion does not automatically make it fact. You really can't bemoan the tone of dialog here and then fire off a stink bomb like that

Now if you could provide some supporting evidence to your opion - a legal opinion, etc. - then perhaps your opinion would carry some validity.

As it is, I am not holding my breath.


"When Fred Phelps decides to picket a homosexual's funeral - laws need to be passed to stop his actions." - Aspen

-- I have yet to meet anyone, Christian or non-Christian that considers his acts acceptable.

I agree that there are few acts I have witnessed that are more reprehensible. I applaud those who do counter-pickets that block their access to the funerals.

But if the Supreme Court determines that it is Constitutionally protected free speech (which they have not done yet) then we as Americans few options to block it.

The "laws need to be passed to stop his actions" is based on emotions many times and runs contrary to what the Constitution guarantees.
Kinds of like when someone says, "once they vote for something they have violated someone else's personal rights." As emotional as it is incorrect.


"When homosexuals are murdered because they are gay - laws need to be passed that address the issue, specifically." - Aspen

-- Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it ALREADY illegal to kill gays?

Do you think that those killers should have a greater penalty than those that kill someone because they are black or Republican or an immigrant or a Packers fan.

That is a tough sell.

Are you really going to tell the mother of a 20 year old whose son was killed because they wanted his wallet that the killers of another 20 year old boy are getting an additional 10 years to their sentence because he was gay? The implication is that the other person's life had greater value.

Whose pain is that going to assuage exactly?

Death penalty opponents are quick to point out that the degree of punishment a person is likely to face does almost nothing in preventing them from committing a capital crime.

 

[Robbie]

The good thing about Jesus being our only Teacher is that when people try and set themselves up as our teachers telling us it's our responsibility to judge we can say, "Sorry buddy... you're not my teacher... and my Teacher said not to judge"... haha.. They will of course judge us for that the same way they judged Jesus for loving sinners like the hookers and the tax collectors. But there's nothing new under the sun... if they hated Him they'll hate us for following Him. As far as the sin of homosexuality... I don't really struggle with loving them to much all though I do admit over my life I haven't been as loving towards them as I should have. I find the hardest sin to have grace for is that of the judgmental hypocrite that disguises the hate in their heart as religious self righteousness ... my Teacher also seemed the most irritated by this sin... but even those I need to love... even though they seem to be hardest... because why you're trying to love them they're usually trying to tell you why you shouldn't love everyone else... that makes me feel like, "If I shouldn't love them why should I love you?"

So I guess I can understand why God's basically like, "If you don't forgive other people their sins I'm not gonna forgive yours" Because I also sometimes feel like I just want to write people like that off. But Jesus never told me not to love someone... he even told me to love my enemies... He also did tell me not to judge.. so as long as I'm loving and not judging I know I'm safe as far as following His commandment.

Hope this blesses...

 

[aspen]

Foreigner and marksman....

This thread is about confronting sin - the sin of Pride in people who witness to homosexuals. It was started by a man who rightly pointed out that presenting the gospel in a self righteous, prideful manner is not helping homosexuals - instead, it is causing them to rebel against God's Word even more. Now, according to Foreigner and Marksman (based on two posts) they are happy with their approach to witnessing to homosexuals and after reading what they actually do when interacting with people who are gay, I believe they are both sincere. Although, I wish that they would treat everyone else with the same decency.

As far as believing people will be able and willing to change their behavior associated with something as deep seated as sexual preference - I think it is sort of arrogant, not effective, and is perceived by homosexuals as an attempt to deny who they really are. No one I know recognizes sin in themselves or changes their behavior (even if it is destructive) because another person tells them that they see the behavior and disagree with it.

Here is my latest example:

I pointed out that Foreigner and marksman use language that is condescending and arrogant, which often is perceived as demeaning when posting in disagreement with me or others on this board. Instead of saying "hey, maybe aspen is right - I think I will look at my behavior and decide if I need to tone down the rhetoric", both decided to deny it, justify it (by claiming that they were the real victims of the mean homosexuals they were correcting), project their arrogance on to me and others, and ultimately increase their negative behavior, rather than make positive changes. My point in mentioning this is not to make a judgment - it is to illustrate the problem with pointing out negative behavior in other people - instead of helping them, it is most likely to be perceived as an attack and result in an increase in the negative behavior.

 

[marksman]

So I guess I can understand why God's basically like, "If you don't forgive other people their sins I'm not gonna forgive yours" Because I also sometimes feel like I just want to write people like that off. But Jesus never told me not to love someone... he even told me to love my enemies... He also did tell me not to judge.. so as long as I'm loving and not judging I know I'm safe as far as following His commandment

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick here Robbie. Only Jesus can forgive sin. Not you, not me or anyone else. You will notice that when Jesus talked about loving people, there is no mention of forgiving their sin. You will notice that Jesus pointed out the Samaratians women sin "you have had five husbands and the person you are living with is not your husband."

Love always involves telling the people the truth especially if what they are doing is ruining their lives. To not tell them is cruelty. I can accept a person with their sin, but I do not forgive them. If I am accepting of them, then I am not judging them but that does not preclude me from telling the truth. If someone had not told me the truth, I doubt if I would be a member fo the Body of Christ now. As the scripture says, "how shall they hear without a preacher." It is obvious that the NT church believed that because Paul in his list of people who would not inherit the kingdom of God were homosexuals, but added the proviso that such were some of you. So we have to deduce that they heard the good news and decided that a new way of living didn't include a SSA.

Not one of the people that came through my ministry complained if their homosexuality was described as sin.

Jesus last command was to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, except homosexuals didn't he. Well, that is what some people want us to believe.

Now if you could provide some supporting evidence to your opion - a legal opinion, etc. - then perhaps your opinion would carry some validity. As it is, I am not holding my breath.

Foreigner, I am so gald that you are not holding your breath. If you get an answer that is not a personal attack on you, you will be the first to achieve this. But don't hold your breath. Oh dear. You have already said that. Good for you. We don't want to end up having to burying you because of death by double speak.

 

[bud02]

I really like your style of testimony Foreigner B) very cool very sharp, I like it.

edit:
praise the HS

 

[Robbie]

OK... let me point out your sin since you're requesting it... I won't do it to anyone else but you... since you want me to judge others... I'll judge you... you need to stop judging people and thinking you have the right to... it's ruining your life... you suffer from the sin of pride... which was the sin of satan who thought he was better than he was and the pharisee who did everything right religiously but was less justified in God's sight than the tax collector because the tax collector saw that their only chance was God's mercy and the pharisee saw their righteousness as good enough because they saw themselves above everyone else...

Yuck... that felt so crappy to do... but it was just to prove a point... forgive me Father... especially since I don't even really know if that is your sin since I don't know your heart... I only know some stuff you wrote on a message board... so all that stuff I wrote above is lame... just like it would be lame to tell a homosexual how wrong I think they are...

As far as your out of context scripture.. Here's the context of the people who aren't entering the Kingdom...

"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Does it say they were justified by works or that they were washed? I believe they were washed by the blood...

and justified by works or by Jesus name? I believe His Name... we all know works got the Pharisees no where slow...

We're all cleansed by the blood of the Lamb...

If they receive Jesus He'll speak to their heart because He'll be in there with the Father dining with them... I'm in no place to judge His servants... especially since they are washed and sanctified by His blood... what He's called clean don't call unclean...

If they reject Him... then why would I judge them? They already rejected life... they're already condemned... they're not covered by the blood of the lamb...

Here's another quote about the Kingdom spoken by the actual Word of God who was manifested in the flesh and who is my only Teacher, "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it."

This will be the last time I respond to this topic because I feel I've shared enough truth... take it or leave it... I feel it's time to move on...

Blessings...

 

[Foreigner]

OK... let me point out your sin since you're requesting it... I won't do it to anyone else but you... since you want me to judge others... I'll judge you... you need to stop judging people and thinking you have the right to... it's ruining your life... you suffer from the sin of pride...

-- Didn't request anything from you, but I think you are beyond letting facts get in your way.

I appreciate you standing in judgement of me - the very thing you are criticizing me for.

Your hypocrisy is noted, thank you.

As far as your out of context scripture.. Here's the context of the people who aren't entering the Kingdom...

-- I find it difficult to take a person seriously who mangles scripture to take it out of the original context
As when you said:
"but if any of you are without sin go ahead and let everyone else know how wrong they are..."

What Jesus actually said was, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

He was talking about those who were going to stone to death the woman caught in adultery.

That is entirely different from proactively addressing homosexuals out of love to let them know that Jesus loves them and wants them to turn away from their sin so they won't face eternal damnation.

I am sorry you are so confused.

This will be the last time I respond to this topic because I feel I've shared enough truth... take it or leave it... I feel it's time to move on...

Blessings...

-- I agree that this is a wise decision for you. You definitely have issues to address before you should start thinking of criticizing others who are doing what God calls ALL Christians to do.