Christian "gay Bashing"

[Foreigner]

Foreigner and marksman....

This thread is about confronting sin - the sin of Pride in people who witness to homosexuals.

-- I know. You have accused every single solitary Christian here - myself included - who has spoken with homosexuals of this sin.
And you have done it without evidence or regard for the facts. Just one big blanket accusation covering ALL Christians.

instead, it is causing them to rebel against God's Word even more.

-- Again, a blanket statement. You apparently feel you can speak for the actions all homosexuals as well as for the actions of all Christians.
Our church - as I have mentioned before - has a number of homosexuals attending who are there because they were spoken to face-to-face about Jesus.

I would point out where your blanket statement is wrong. Many homosexuals are "rebelling" not because of some overzealous Christians waving the Bible in their face and yelling, "Sinner!" They are rebelling because Christians won't put the seal of approval on their lifestyle when homosexuals demand it and have the audacity to say, when asked, that Jesus says something different.

Although, I wish that they would treat everyone else with the same decency.

-- lol......ahem......do I really need to search these threads and point out the number of times you have shown that same lack of "decency" towards someone here?
Physician, heal thyself.

I pointed out that Foreigner and marksman use language that is condescending and arrogant, which often is perceived as demeaning when posting in disagreement with me or others on this board. Instead of saying "hey, maybe aspen is right - I think I will look at my behavior and decide if I need to tone down the rhetoric", both decided to deny it,

-- First plank, then speck big guy. A quick perusal of your posts shows the same "tone" issues you are blaming others for.

(by claiming that they were the real victims of the mean homosexuals they were correcting), project their arrogance on to me and others,

-- You are again moving into the realm of the dishonest.

I ask (yet again) where I am claiming to be a "victim" in this situation.

You can see from a previous post that I said just the opposite. I don't feel "attacked," "threatened" or even that "my feelings are hurt."
Can you PLEASE and least TRY to be honest?

But when the person who opposes a homosexual, and then goes out and votes for prop 8 - they have crossed the line between opinion and violating a person's rights.

-- Opinions like this - and an opinion is all it is - are one of the reasons it is difficult to have a dialog on the topic.
Your statement that anyone who supports Prop 8 is "violating a person's rights" is so over the top, it defies logic.

When homosexuals are murdered because they are gay - laws need to be passed to address the issue, specifically.

-- Again, since it seems you need to have this pointed out, it is already illegal to murder someone because they are gay.
Just as it is already illegal to kill Christians, Democrats, Republicans, Blacks, Hispanics, Illegals, or just because you want someone's wallet or watch.

Your statement implies that motive of the murder dictates the severity of the punishment and that you can automatically tell what the specific motive was.

 

[Rach1370]

Wow, touchy topic. But I still wonder why there has to be so much confusion.

Love is important, so very important. But love is not letting things slide. Love stops a child running in front of a car, or burning themselves. Love teaches and makes aware.
But it is not loving to let people think we are okay with sin - that would be affirming it in their eyes. Affirmation leads to comfort in certain behaviors, and this complacency leads down that wide path to destruction.

Am I condoning some of the terrible behavior committed in the Christian name? Oh boy no. That is NOT loving.
But it is possible to love a person, make sure they know it, and still talk to them about sin.

And really, that's what it comes down to, isn't it? Sin. Being gay is not a bigger sin than any other sin, but it's still a sin in God's eye. That's why there's a big difference in how Christians should respond to sin, any sin, both in and out of the Church. Those of us who say we're Christians profess to put sin to death daily....a little hard to profess that when we're cheating our boss at work or while sleeping with a same sex partner!
Gay people who aren't Christians need to hear the gospel perhaps even more...just so they know. But such a message has to be given with love...or they just won't hear it.

I think a big problem today, is that through much lobbying by gay rights groups, they've managed to sway opinion to the point that most people believe saying 'homosexuality is a sin' is denying them rights. Basic rights to have love and life etc. But as loving Christians of course we don't deny them these things...we just wish it for them in a way that God intended, and in a way that doesn't see them in sin.
Because again, it's sin. And this isn't a 'lack of rights' by the mean old intolerant Christians, it comes from God....the one and only God, the one that created the earth we all live on, the air we breathe, the food we eat, the animals we love.

So when it comes down to it, we could tip toe around peoples 'feelings' and 'rights', or we could do as our God tells us; love and spread the gospel....and to those that need it the most....the sinful. It is possible to do just that, you know!!

 

[mjrhealth]

There are a lot of wars going on today, of which I will not mention, where those doing the attacking and claim to be on the righrt side are actulally on the wrong side And so it is with christians, alwyas thinking that because they are christians that they are on the right side, yet so often agrreing with the enemy and so are on the wrong side. LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE, start lining up the queue is growing with those who are rightous, ready to hurl rocks, but have no fear, Christ will defend the sinner from you all.

in His Love

 

[aspen]

Wow, touchy topic. But I still wonder why there has to be so much confusion.

Love is important, so very important. But love is not letting things slide. Love stops a child running in front of a car, or burning themselves. Love teaches and makes aware.
But it is not loving to let people think we are okay with sin - that would be affirming it in their eyes. Affirmation leads to comfort in certain behaviors, and this complacency leads down that wide path to destruction.

Am I condoning some of the terrible behavior committed in the Christian name? Oh boy no. That is NOT loving.
But it is possible to love a person, make sure they know it, and still talk to them about sin.

And really, that's what it comes down to, isn't it? Sin. Being gay is not a bigger sin than any other sin, but it's still a sin in God's eye. That's why there's a big difference in how Christians should respond to sin, any sin, both in and out of the Church. Those of us who say we're Christians profess to put sin to death daily....a little hard to profess that when we're cheating our boss at work or while sleeping with a same sex partner!
Gay people who aren't Christians need to hear the gospel perhaps even more...just so they know. But such a message has to be given with love...or they just won't hear it.

I think a big problem today, is that through much lobbying by gay rights groups, they've managed to sway opinion to the point that most people believe saying 'homosexuality is a sin' is denying them rights. Basic rights to have love and life etc. But as loving Christians of course we don't deny them these things...we just wish it for them in a way that God intended, and in a way that doesn't see them in sin.
Because again, it's sin. And this isn't a 'lack of rights' by the mean old intolerant Christians, it comes from God....the one and only God, the one that created the earth we all live on, the air we breathe, the food we eat, the animals we love.

So when it comes down to it, we could tip toe around peoples 'feelings' and 'rights', or we could do as our God tells us; love and spread the gospel....and to those that need it the most....the sinful. It is possible to do just that, you know!!

Hi Rach

Just wondering

Do you think I believe homosexuality is ok?
Do you believe that I am advocating loving homosexuals into Hell?

 

[Rach1370]

Hi Rach

Just wondering

Do you think I believe homosexuality is ok?
Do you believe that I am advocating loving homosexuals into Hell?

Hey Aspen...nope, I don't at all!!

I just kinda seemed to me, reading all those posts, that good stuff was being said, but seemed to be misunderstood by both parties.

I was hoping to reinforce the good points on both sides. Love without action can be pointless....and action without love is just mean.

Hope that clears it up!!

 

[Foreigner]

-- What an outstanding post by Rach.

But love is not letting things slide. Love stops a child running in front of a car, or burning themselves. Love teaches and makes aware.
But it is not loving to let people think we are okay with sin - that would be affirming it in their eyes. Affirmation leads to comfort in certain behaviors, and this complacency leads down that wide path to destruction.

-- This is the exact point I was making.
If you have friends who know you are a Christian and they know you are aware of their sinful behavior, but you choose not to speak to them, at best they think it is not a big deal and at worst they will think it is not a sin at all. Not assisting them in understanding that the sin they are immersed in will cause them eternal damnation if they don't turn away from it is NOT "spreading the Gospel by showing them love and tolerance."

Am I condoning some of the terrible behavior committed in the Christian name? Oh boy no. That is NOT loving.
But it is possible to love a person, make sure they know it, and still talk to them about sin.

-- Exactly. Yet some here would have Christians believe that "showing love" doesn't actually mean we should help them avoid eternal damnation.
It is like a lifeguard letting a swimmer swim in shark infested waters because he doesn't want to make them angry they can't swim whereever and whenever they want. Who is that lifeguard to tell them that it isn't a good idea?

Gay people who aren't Christians need to hear the gospel perhaps even more...just so they know. But such a message has to be given with love...or they just won't hear it.

-- True. And simply being their buddy and letting them know you aren't going to criticize them for their lifestyle is NOT "spreading the Gospel."
Again, in many cases it has just the opposite effect - letting them think that their lifestyle is no big deal and they will not be held accountable.

I think a big problem today, is that through much lobbying by gay rights groups, they've managed to sway opinion to the point that most people believe saying 'homosexuality is a sin' is denying them rights.

-- I think it is even worse than that. When someone who professes to be a Christian claims that someone voting for Prop 8 is "violating the civil rights" of homosexuals, the problem obviously runs much deeper.
Same with wanting more severe penalties for the murder of homosexuals compared to murder for other reasons.

So when it comes down to it, we could tip toe around peoples 'feelings' and 'rights', or we could do as our God tells us; love and spread the gospel....and to those that need it the most....the sinful. It is possible to do just that, you know!!

-- Exactly.
The argument that you should just 'love' a homosexual and not share with them what God feels about their sin and what he wants for them is NOT "spreading the Gospel" as Aspen or Robbie have argued. That person could be your dear friend right up until the time they die in their sin and face eternity in hell.
Friends don't leave that to chance.

Being gay is not a bigger sin than any other sin, but it's still a sin in God's eye. That's why there's a big difference in how Christians should respond to sin, any sin, both in and out of the Church.

-- Again, correct.
The difference here is that the homosexual lobby is actively trying to silence and criminalize anyone in the Christian community who dares speak out against this sin or who will not support ideas or plans that promote the homosexual agenda.
There are Christians on this board who seem to agree with them.

As far as other sins, dishonesty, theft, infidelity, and on and on are all sins that will seperate you from Jesus and cause you to spend eternity in hell if you do not turn away from them. But currently none of the lobbies for these groups are trying to get laws passed to silence Christians for saying so.

 

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The difference here is that the homosexual lobby is actively trying to silence and criminalize anyone in the Christian community who dares speak out against this sin or who will not support ideas or plans that promote the homosexual agenda.
There are Christians on this board who seem to agree with them.

As far as other sins, dishonesty, theft, infidelity, and on and on are all sins that will seperate you from Jesus and cause you to spend eternity in hell if you do not turn away from them. But currently none of the lobbies for these groups are trying to get laws passed to silence Christians for saying so.

We seem to have arrived at the core of the discussion and the nut of the problem.
Some sort of legal response seems to be in order at this point.

Is there a lawyer in the house?

 

[bud02]

We seem to have arrived at the core of the discussion and the nut of the problem.
Some sort of legal response seems to be in order at this point.

Is there a lawyer in the house?

Matthew 7:1

 

[Foreigner]

So Bud has joined the group that says if you actually share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with sinners (as called for in Mark 16:15) then you are 'judging' them.

 

[bud02]

So Bud has joined the group that says if you actually share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with sinners (as called for in Mark 16:15) then you are 'judging' them.

I belong to the camp of the Lord. Was Jesus judging the woman caught in adultery? Go and sin no more? I believe she had just received a new life not condemnation.

Romans 8:1-3

 

[Duckybill]

Was Paul judging sinners when he said this?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Of course not. He was just stating the facts.

 

[Rach1370]

The interesting thing is, what do we learn of sin from the bible and from Godly people?

Jesus, God himself, came to earth FOR sin. That's a big step to take to make people aware of their sins. He then left behind a simple life as a carpenter to begin His ministry...a ministry based on what? Sin, love and repentance. Did he make people uncomfortable? Oh yeah!! Did he make people angry? The crowd screamed 'crucify him!' but was he loving? Always! Did he have the best in heart for everyone, even the worst of sinner? Eternally!

And what about John the Baptist? Jesus calls him the best man who ever lived... Pretty high praise! And Johns message? 'Repent!'

Paul's ministry? Totally about sinners! And while Paul is clearly loving....we see again and again that his concern is for peoples souls; his message was not popular. How many times was that man stoned and imprisoned??

In fact all the disciples suffered horrible torture and death for their message of love and repentance. My point is this: people will not like to hear what their doing is wrong...with varying degrees of animosity. But it's still our jobs BECAUSE we love them, to point them towards Jesus. And we need to take care and behave like Jesus when we do this...

 

[mjrhealth]

As simple as can be explained.

If you where in a court room, and you where the judge, and you stood and looked at the condemend being accused of sin, and you said to him," you are a sinner", guess what, you just told him he is guilty, you have agreed with the accuser, satan. Dont you get it, Jesus could never call anyman a sinner. for 2 reasons.

1 He already died for all our sins.
2 . He would have to be in agreement with the enemy.

So is Jesus like satan, and who is it you agree with. Satan or Jesus.

In His LOve

 

[Rach1370]

As simple as can be explained.

If you where in a court room, and you where the judge, and you stood and looked at the condemend being accused of sin, and you said to him," you are a sinner", guess what, you just told him he is guilty, you have agreed with the accuser, satan. Dont you get it, Jesus could never call anyman a sinner. for 2 reasons.

1 He already died for all our sins.
2 . He would have to be in agreement with the enemy.

So is Jesus like satan, and who is it you agree with. Satan or Jesus.

In His LOve

I would object to this on a few levels.

The first one would be; it is not us, standing as lofty Judge condemning others as sinners. We are all sinners....in fact if one claims to be a Christian, they've had to put up their hand and say "I'm a sinner, God please help me."

Telling people of the Gospel, making them aware of their sins is not accusing them; it is giving them an invitation to step from darkness into light...from death into eternal life. How are people supposed to know of their basic need for Jesus if they think the broad path they're on is just fine?? Especially if Christians encourage their life choices.

Also, Jesus died to save us from our sins, yes. This means if we love Jesus as our Savior when we die we will be with Him in heaven....but it does NOT mean we are sin free. We are to battle sin every day; but we still live in fallen bodies in a fallen world...that will not change until we have both new bodies and a new world. John himself tells us this:

[8] If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1 John 1:8-10 ESV)

And this is talking of Christians...those people who are aware of their sin and terrible need for Christ.

Finally, Jesus ministry was all about sinners. He loved them, was kind to them, gracious always; but He always confronted them. He never said to them; 'I affirm your lifestyle...go and have fun!'
No...He loved, told them parables that point to sanctification, and told them to 'go and sin no more'. (The huge inference there is that if He told them to stop sinning, He had to have thought there WERE sinning. And this is quite obvious, both the audience and subject would have known this.)

I can't quite believe that so many Christians are content to let others go to hell. Doesn't the thought of so many people in eternal punishment wrench your soul? How is sitting back...carefully considering their feeling now, show them love when they die? How do you suppose their feeling might be then? I most certainly do not condone some behavior by those who label themselves Christian...but to truly love someone (as we are commanded to do) means we should at least point them gently in the right direction.

 

[timf]

Greek words (as in English) can sometimes carry multiple or overlapping meanings.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

1 Corinthians 5:11-12 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

It would seem that judgment with condemnation is prohibited, but judgment with discernment is required.

Consider if you were to travel to Mexico. If you came across a street vendor selling bottled water and you noticed one bottle had a loose cap and was on crooked, it would be prudent to choose the bottle whose cap was sealed to purchase. You might warn another tourist to avoid the bottle with the loose cap. The other tourist might get angry at you and and tell you to mind your own business. You might get angry at the vendor and curse him for attempting to sell polluted water.

In this example, discerning judgment can prevent great discomfort. Warning others may or may not be appreciated. Condemnation of perpetrators would be "over the top" as well as ineffective. Inviting the perpetrator into a church or home to sell his water would not show good judgment. If the vendor did not know his water was polluted and was angry at any suggestion there was anything wrong with what he was selling, it is still sound judgment to keep him from damaging others. "Not judging" does not mean we should drink from poisoned wells or allow others to spread poison.

There are those who claim to be Christian and demonstrate unrepentant sinful lives. Paul tells us that we should not even eat with such. We are to exercise judgment, just not with condemnation.

 

[Foreigner]

I belong to the camp of the Lord. Was Jesus judging the woman caught in adultery? Go and sin no more? I believe she had just received a new life not condemnation.

Romans 8:1-3

-- But not a new life to continue the lifestyle she left before. Jesus told her to stop it because if she didn't she could still spend eternity in hell for her activities.

Tell me, oh wise one, how does Jesus help the sinners of today realize they are in sin, need to turn away from that sin, and accept His forgiveness and love?

He uses his "camp of the Lord" to share with them - Mark 16:15

The "Camp of the Lord" you speak of appears to be the ones Jesus spoke of who said, "God bless you, go in peace" but did not do anything to help with their immediate needs.

I suggest you research what happens to those who do that.

Or you could just wait and find out the hard way.


Those people who claim that sharing the Gospel is judging are the problem, not the solution.

They hurt fellow Christians and sinners alike.

 

[bud02]

-- But not a new life to continue the lifestyle she left before. Jesus told her to stop it because if she didn't she could still spend eternity in hell for her activities.

Tell me, oh wise one, how does Jesus help the sinners of today realize they are in sin, need to turn away from that sin, and accept His forgiveness and love?

He uses his "camp of the Lord" to share with them - Mark 16:15

The "Camp of the Lord" you speak of appears to be the ones Jesus spoke of who said, "God bless you, go in peace" but did not do anything to help with their immediate needs.

I suggest you research what happens to those who do that.

Or you could just wait and find out the hard way.


Those people who claim that sharing the Gospel is judging are the problem, not the solution.

They hurt fellow Christians and sinners alike.

Its pretty clear you don't walk in the Spirit, other wise you would know the word of God is not simply a matter of observing the law, the law is our teacher not our master.

 

[Foreigner]

Hmmmm....witnessing to people as God commanded and seeing them give their lives to Jesus so they will know paradise.
Seeing them in turn witness to others who come to know Jesus personally.

Certainly SOUNDS like I am walking in The Spirit.

Perhaps if you were to try it yourself....

Just a thought.

 

[aspen]

Foreigner - you can't even get along with your own kind....

Is there anyone you agree with?

 

[mjrhealth]

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

We have no right to call anyman a sinner, it is the Job of the Holy Spirit to convict people of their sin, we are supposed to be witnesses of Chist , healing the sick, causing the blind to see, the deaf to hear, so that those whom we speak to will see Christ in us, then when we do this in our Lords strength, they will listen, and the Holy Spirit will convict them of there sin and they will repent. When you do it in your own strength, they have no cause to listen ,and you may be in danger of causing them, to stumble and yoy will be held accountable. Its a dangerous place to be, procliming to be sent from God.

In His love