Once Saved Always Saved

[BloodBought 1953]

Who brings a person to faith?

and what is a person believing when he comes to faith? Hebrews speaks of two mountains, mt siniah and mt Zion. Can a person be saved just by going to my zion, or should they go to both and why?


I’ve said it before ....it is wise and bears repeating “ Flirting with Moses is Cheating on Jesus”......

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It helps to make the journey to Mt. Sinai first so that you can know to never return to the law as a means of being saved.

Visiting Mt. Sinai means having the law be brought to bear upon your heart as a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ.

But of course there is only salvation in Mt. Zion.

Mt. Sinai will only show you that you are a sinner in need of what Mt. Zion has to offer.

It is always good to get that behind your belt; so that you will never depart from Mt. Zion once you have arrived there.

I think Mt sinai shows us more than our sinl what deeper message does it show

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who brings a person to faith?

and what is a person believing when he comes to faith? Hebrews speaks of two mountains, mt siniah and mt Zion. Can a person be saved just by going to my zion, or should they go to both and why?


I’ve said it before ....it is wise and bears repeating “ Flirting with Moses is Cheating on Jesus”......

You misunderstood my question..

I am not talking about flirting with moses.

 

[Taken]

That's what I thought.
NONE of these verses make YOUR claim about an invisible...

There ya go thinking again...

Eph 1:
[22] the church,
[23] Which is his body,

"IN" Christ ring a bell?

Matt 18:
[20] For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Assembly - OT, gathering.
Assembly - NT, gathering.

Gathering - fields, tents, buildings, temples, synogogs, churches, homes, yards, rooms, porches, boats....
The Gathering "PLACE", OT, men gathered.
The Gathering "PLACE", NT, men, women, children gather.

IF the gathered "GROUP" are Under Mosaic Law... Men Gather.

IF the gathered "GROUP" are;
"hearing ABOUT Christ", being enlightened
"learning ABOUT Christ", being enlightened
"following Jesus' Word", being enlightened
"IN" Christ, Converted
Gathering, "IN" Christ JESUS' NAME;
THEY ARE "IN" Church.

The "VISIBLE PLACE" of gathering is irrelevant.

The "UNSEEN BODY of Jesus" is His Church.

 

[Taken]

I think it's against Forum rules for you to judge me not a Christian.

IF that is the rules...
IF I should do that...
Go complain.

What don't I believe? OSAS? True, but I believe in Jesus of the Bible, the Savior!

That's you.
I believe Jesus IS Faithful and True, and ONCE HE SAVES a man, it is ETERNAL, NO man can undo, what the Lord has accomplished.

John 10:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Luke 6:37 (NKJV)
37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Judging - swings both ways.
I believe once the Lord saves a man, it is forever, just as Scripture teaches.

Your Judgement is that is "nonsense" to believe the Lords salvation given a man once is forever.

I have shown you Scriptures, to support my belief.
You have shown nothing of a man having received his Salvation, then had his Salvation removed.

We disagree, and you JUDGED my belief, as "nonsense'. That's on you.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Hebrews 6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



1. You cannot “fall away” from something you never become a part of.

2. The Holy Ghost is only given to them who obey (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

3. A person who has not been saved cannot crucify the Son of God unto themselves a second time when they never did it the first time.

Seems like a conundrum aye? It was a harsh warning/threat to unbelieving Jews who were partakers of the Holy Spirit's Word (that they lived by and believed), His work in their lives, experiencing His blessings, miracles outwardly, and having an up close and personal God dwell in their Temple, BUT NOT dwelling in them as He does and did after Penetecost.

 

[Waiting on him]

Seems like a conundrum aye? It was a harsh warning/threat to unbelieving Jews who were partakers of the Holy Spirit's Word (that they lived by and believed), His work in their lives, experiencing His blessings, miracles outwardly, and having an up close and personal God dwell in their Temple, BUT NOT dwelling in them as He does and did after Penetecost.

They should have been teachers by then.

 

[Taken]

Yes, I fear God. Do you?

NO, I do NOT FEAR GOD.

Philippians 2:12 (NKJV)

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Yes that's written to Christians. No OSAS in the Bible!

"Christians", is a mans term.

"Converted", is Jesus' term.
( Study Scripture. It was the Lord Jesus who expressly used that term.)

Matt 18:
[3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

No OSAS in the Bible!

Nothing in Scripture says, Converted, then Unconverted.

 

[Taken]

Don't edit out my intention. That's not very Christian. Oh that's right, you never sin, right?
"So you're saying John wasn't a Christian?

Your intention was to put your words in my mouth, then want a defense from me.

I Don't play that game. What comes out of your mouth is your words. You are accountable for what you think and say...
Not me.

1 John 1:8-9 (NKJV)

8 If WE say that WE have no sin, WE deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in US. 9 If WE confess OUR sins, He is faithful and just to forgive US OUR sins and to cleanse US from all unrighteousness."

Excuse me, but it was YOU who said you never sin. Not me.

No I do not EXCUSE your lack of UNDERSTANDING.

It is obvious, you Quoting, 1 John 1:8-9...
Is you revealing you KNOW NOT THE DIFFERENCE between one CLAIMING...
"They HAVE NO SIN"
And as I HAVE CLAIMED, "I have FORGIVEN SIN".

Any student and believer "KNOWS" all men "HAVE SIN".
Any elementary student, can comprehend, a natural man is "born IN SIN", and "commits SIN".

Any elementary student, can comprehend,
* "A CONVERTED MAN, HAS FORGIVEN SIN",
And SINS, "NO MORE".
* "A NON-CONVERTED MAN, HAS NON-FORGIVEN SIN", and CONTINUES TO SIN.

I am Forgiven, Converted IN Christ, KEPT By HIS Power and sin NO MORE.

You....well, by your own admission, you continue to SIN....
For some (unscriptural reasoning), the Lords Power is not enough to KEEP you Free from sin...

OSASers cannot resist judging Non OSASers as unsaved! You've judged me as unsaved with ZERO proof. Payday is coming.

I didn't say you were unsaved.
You define yourself as:
Saved (but can lose your salvation)...
Saved (but continues to sin)...

What you have determined applies to you...
Definately does not apply to me.

If that bothers you, so what.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Sorry this took so long ....I am a busy man...
Golf and riding the Harley are both so darned Time Consuming .....I must start a thread someday about the “ Agony” Of Retirement....lol
I don’t care if we have to “ hold firmly” .....I don't care if we have to “endure to the end”.....I don’t care about “ repenting from all of my sins before I die” .....I don’t care about “ not committing any WILLFUL Sins, lest I Fall Away, and I don’t care about having to obey the Commandments to prove that I love God. Does that pretty much cover everything? Good.....
It wasn’t good ol’ Blood Bought That made up all of these fantastic Promises for his children.....it was GOD—— the One That can NEVER lie! It is “ HE” that said he will NEVER “leave us forsake us”..... It is “ HE” that said that He would “ SAVE to the UTTERMOST” If we put our Faith in His Son....it is “ He” that said there would be” NO CONDEMNATION” for those that simply Believed.....It is “ He” that said that “Anybody that asks to be Saved “ WILL “ be Saved.....and it is “ He” That Promised That we are ALREADY SAVED.....ALREADY PASSED FROM DEATH to LIFE by Believing His Gospel......The “ONUS” is on HIM—- NOT ME!
I DID my Part .....I performed “God’s Will” ......I “ Believed in the One that He sent” ......Now it is up to HIM to perform HIS Part.....He has Promised to save me if I Believe that His Son is “ The Risen Lord” (Romans 10:9 ).....Now the most Precious Thing in this Universe is at stake—- God’s Word! I have the Absolute Faith to Believe that He will move Heaven and Earth to fulfill it!
If there is something I must “ DO” to get Saved and Stay Saved.....God will see to it that it will get done at sometime in my Life ....( His Word is at stake!)
If there is anything in this universe that I am Forbidden to do, lest I get Damned for Doing it.....God will see to it that I don’t Do it ( once again, God’s Word is at Stake! )
So, there ya go....call me a “ Fool” if you like, it just so happens that I Trust God.....I might be the True “ Chief Of Sinners” , But for this Trust that I put in God’s Promises ( and THAT is what True Faith is) ....God gives me Everything ......
“ The Righteous by Faith shall live”..... try it.....you might just like it.....Trust in the Promises Of God ....THAT is the vehicle for your Salvation....God Bless ......
.

But that's the very arrogance that Paul warns us not to have.

...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either. Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:20-22​

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

How to live in Victory

As in the Parable of the Sower, many receive the Word, but it is not planted in fertile soil. It does not grow to maturity and produce fruit. This is a shallow belief. These people are not born again. They may go to a Harvest Crusade or Billy Graham Sermon and go to the altar, say the sinners prayer in a momentary excitement, but not truly repent, get serious, obey, be transformed by the renewing of their minds. The seed wasn't cared for and watered. Many doubts still remain. This person wasn't really prayerful, seeking God daily, open and transparent, humble. No, they might have even attended church for any years but Monday through Saturday lived as they always did with no apparent change.
We are born from above and this does not always take place at that moment when you say the sinners prayer, it could come later, years later.
You have to ask, What is belief in Christ? Belief should be based on knowledge, knowing Him through the Word and a relationship through prayer. If you know little and don't pray, your faith will be weak. It should be demonstrated. You should see change, fruit. It will be tested in the trials and tribulations.
Ultimately, this gift of faith that enables you to truly believe is planted in fertile soil. He lifts the veil of blindness and you are born again. HE dwells in you. There are many people in churches that have not experienced this, hence have not grown and therefore these are the ones that fall away from their insincere, shallow belief. I guess you can label it counterfeit faith.
Hypocracy is the fruit of this counterfeit faith. They preach the way but live quite a different way. So, by their fruit you will know them.

 

[mailmandan]

As in the Parable of the Sower, many receive the Word, but it is not planted in fertile soil. It does not grow to maturity and produce fruit. This is a shallow belief. These people are not born again...

Amen! Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away does not represent saving belief in Christ.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

It was a harsh warning/threat to unbelieving Jews

Amazing how the “it was to/for the Jews” card always comes out when a scripture flatly refutes a man made doctrine.

Those scriptures make no mention of “unbelieving Jews”. You’re just using your imagination and reasoning, or someone else’s imagination and reasoning, to dismiss scripture that flatly refutes Once Saved Always Saved/Eternal Security.

This is how you added to scripture:

Hebrews 6:4-6
[4] For it is impossible for those Jews who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Adding to scripture is something you should avoid doing:

Revelation 22:18-19
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

A person who simply "disagrees" with Catholic doctrine is not necessarily an "anti-Catholic".
An "anti-Catholic" can be defined as a person who resorts to LYING about what Catholics believe and teach instead of simply arguing the facts.

the people on this forum who argue against the Catholic church are largely ANTI-Catholics because you guys weave lies, myths and falsehoods into your arguments at EVERY turn. In fact, I can't remember when I've debated a someone on this foum where I didn't have to correct their lies and falsehoods during the course of our discussion. There HAVE been a few - but not many.

Well I gete my info from Catholic material or history when the Catholic Church was ruling Europe during the dark ages. So no I am not anti-catholics, just anti-catholicism. I know that there are many saved in the Catholic Church just like in every denomination. No denomination has a lock on the saved. The church is a living organism, not a dead hierarchal organization.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Like I said, many questions, but there was just ine I was interested in: must we endure to the end?

You got stuck on one verse I gave and missed the whole point of the original idea I was getting at. Yes, I believe in predestination but the concept doesn't help us much because God doesn't give specific names nor does he give out diplomas before you finish. He gives the game plan and the promise.

You go to any Church -- including mine -- and you ask people if they will get to heaven or if they are saved and most will say yes. But wait around a year and some that say that will have dropped out. This is what John was talking about in I John 2.

So again, could you answer the question?


Well thats a good one, but that isn't it.

Well endure according ot Matthew? No. That enduring is not for soterioloigical purposes.

Well for people who leave the faith, the bible has an answer that is much clearer than the man made- saved, then no t saved, then saved, then not saved conundrum.

Matt. 7:21-23 Jesus said He NEVER knew those folks! Not that He knew them once but didn't know them now!

1 John 2:19-- As John wrote, they were not of us, not they were once of us but are not now! This is just like the parable of the wheat and tares. They both looked alike for a time but in the end the wheat and tares become known! It isn't that some wheat became tares.

I await your verse if Timothy is not the verse.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Like I said earlier, OSASers are some of the most judgmental people on Earth.

Matthew 7:1-2 (NKJV)
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

Maybe they are and maybe they are not! But now you are judging OSAS people yourself! I am glad that only God gets to judge ones eternal state. I know of many people who believe you can lose your salvation judge people lost if they go through a season of backsliding. I guess we see what we want to see.

As for me, if someone who professes to be a believer turns to live in sin for a season, I am not going to say they aren't saved, or never saved, but plead with them to turn away and acknowledge their sin, be experientially forgiven and once again enjoy their relationship with God. If they never had a relationship, that is for God to decide!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Maybe they are and maybe they are not! But now you are judging OSAS people yourself! I am glad that only God gets to judge ones eternal state. I know of many people who believe you can lose your salvation judge people lost if they go through a season of backsliding. I guess we see what we want to see.

As for me, if someone who professes to be a believer turns to live in sin for a season, I am not going to say they aren't saved, or never saved, but plead with them to turn away and acknowledge their sin, be experientially forgiven and once again enjoy their relationship with God. If they never had a relationship, that is for God to decide!

Amen

As The scripture says He was not sent to judge but to save. We have no right to judge, but we can come alongside and help.

I truly believe many will be in heaven we think were lost. And many will not be there we thought were saved.

We are not God..that we can see a persons heart

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Amazing how the “it was to/for the Jews” card always comes out when a scripture flatly refutes a man made doctrine.

Isn't it amazing? Apparently God delt the card, The name of The Book is Hebrews. Clearly every chapter references the OT, which Gentiles were not familiar with. Paul is likely the one who wrote it and his witness and teaching was designed specifically for the Jews.

Revelation 22:18-19
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

It is His prerogative to cut out someone prior to their conversion.
Another warning/threat - Don't mess with my Word!
He warns us all through scripture of Judgment, punishment and death. What else would detour us if they weren't there?

 

[Wrangler]

What elsebwoukd detour us if they weren't there?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The name of The Book is Hebrews

The book is a letter to believers.

There was no title page on the original letter.