Biblical Salvation

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ByGraceThroughFaith

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John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


Don't fall into that trap brother, giving something a label in order to dismiss it out of hand. Let's examine our assumptions and get to the heart of the matter. Paul does not contradict Jesus when he argues that salvation is the workmanship of a transcendent creator. And Jesus is not ruling this out either. In fact, if we consider John 3:16 in context, Jesus defines the "whoever" in terms of spirituality. That is, those who believe are those on whom God has poured out his spirit (Paul's words) born from above (Jesus' words.) In that context, Jesus explains, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

So then, even in this context, Jesus qualifies the "whoever" to those individuals whom God has granted a spiritual rebirth. Unless an individual is born again, Jesus says, that man can't see the kingdom of heaven. In other words, which individual believes depends on the quiddity of the individual.

One need only take a lesson from God's promises to Israel concerning the last days when Israel will be granted "circumcised hearts."

Ezekiel 36:26-27
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

This was said in the context of a prediction concerning the deliverance, i.e. salvation of those living at the time. Only after God pours out his spirit into their hearts do they remember their evil ways and repent. (verse 31) Not only this, but he tells them that he doesn't save them for their own sake (verse 32) Why does he do it? To restore his holy name. (verse 23)

What John 3:16 is saying is very simple. the "world" here is the entire lost human race, none excepted. But, it is only the "whosoever" from this human race that "believes", who can get saved. Any notion of a "limit" on the Death of Jesus Christ is 100% against the Teachings of the Holy Bible, and from the devil!
Bottom line: God saves whomever he wants to save and for his own purposes. We believe if we want to believe, but what we want is based on the kind of heart we have. If God has given us a new heart and a new spirit, then we will see our sins and repent. There is your "ordo salutis"
 

Enoch111

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Names predating life on earth. Which tells us too that it is true that we may believe we are choosing salvation. But unless our names are in that Book of Life that predates creation we are not.
I believe you are confused about this matter. Since the Tree of Life in Eden implied that eternal life was for all humanity, and God desires the salvation of every human being, the Book of Life has the names of all people. However as they are confronted with the Gospel or the living God, they must choose to obey or disobey. And those who disobey the Gospel, and reject Christ and His salvation, are BLOTTED OUT of the Book of Life. The Bible says that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (which implies eternal death).
 

Addy

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Well lookie at that... I just learned something.... I thought names were added to the Book of Life... but apparently they are already there and those who reject Christ get their names blotted out... I did not know this.
 

Taken

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The simplicity is so beautiful! All who call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.

Much love!

Correct.

From Scripture (and common sense)...
Talking ABOUT the Lord is one thing...
A man can say, "my Lord", claiming possessive belief.
A man can say, "your Lord", claiming an others belief, but not their own.
Calling out TO the Lord, reveals a BELIEF the person Calling out, is TALKING TO the Lord.
 

Taken

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I believe you are confused about this matter. Since the Tree of Life in Eden implied that eternal life was for all humanity, and God desires the salvation of every human being, the Book of Life has the names of all people. However as they are confronted with the Gospel or the living God, they must choose to obey or disobey. And those who disobey the Gospel, and reject Christ and His salvation, are BLOTTED OUT of the Book of Life. The Bible says that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (which implies eternal death).

Agree, All men naturally born, are Entered by Name, into "Gods Book of Life"...
We can learn the history of men, (our OT examples) who lived and physically died;
Some, believing IN God...
Some, rejecting belief IN God...

The believing Names remain in Gods Book of Life...
The rejecting Names become blotted out of Gods Book of Life....
(Those believing...who CONTINUED in BELIEVE, ie enduring to their end of physical life...Received their Salvation when their physical life ended)

Moving into the NT, a NEW Covenant, a NEW Promise. (Receiving their Salvation "DURING" their Physical Life,)
* BY Spiritually giving their LIFE unto death, crucified with Christ...
Receiving Salvation of their soul.
Receiving Quickening of their spirit.
Living their Spiritual LIFE, IN the Risen Lords Body.

THESE ^ are Never Subject to being Blotted our the Gods Book of Life.

THESE ^ are ADDITIONALLY Names entered INTO, the Lambs Book of Life, which their NAME can NEVER Be BLOTTED OUT.

WHY those TWO BOOKS?
Because there were TWO Teachings.
* The First...to BABES...(ancient men, with less knowledge given, without history, without experience..
(Same concept, as we teach our children, little by little bits of information, until they grow, mature, can comprehend more knowledge)
* the First...Hebrews, Tribes, ONLY KNEW of God.
* Enter the Last...Gods CHRIST the Lord...
to children with 4,000 years of examples, experiences, history...
* and A NEW TESTAMENT, NEW COVENANT, NEW OFFERING...SALVATION NOW...before physical death...

This Offering of SALVATION NOW...
IS predicated ON a mans Heartful Confession of BELIEF...IN BOTH...
"God and His Christ."

A mans NAME ENTERED into The LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE...
Receives ONCE and Forever...
Forgiveness, The Lords acceptance of that mans body dead, crucified with Christ, gifts that man with Salvation of his soul, gifts that mans with a Quickening of his spirit...

AND...Just as in Noah's DAY...the Lord God, Shall KEEP that man FROM WRATH TO COME...by the same manner the Lord God KEPT Saved Noah from Wrath upon the Earth...

Noah was lifted UP, "above" the Face of the Earth...TO the "Face of the waters".
The Face of the Earth was destroyed.

Those IN Lambs Book of Life;
Shall be Lifted UP, "above" the Face of the Earth...TO the "Face of the water...Clouds".
(This is BEFORE Tribulation)

Those ON Earth...shall suffer, THE LAMBS WRATH...as men Accept belief in the Lamb...
Their Wrath ceases, they become SAVED, and their body physically dead. THEIR saved souls, WAIT on earth, for other souls to be saved, Their names, entered into the Lambs BOOK.
(This is DURING first part of Tribulation)

Second part of Tribulation...
The DEVILS WRATH appears. Living body's are KILLED... Some are accepting the Lords Salvation...(names entered into the Lambs Book) ...Some are not. (Names Blotted out of Gods Book)

Third part of Tribulation...
Those with and IN the Lord God...Separated.
Names IN Gods Book, IN Lambs Book, souls and spirits with the Lord God.
Gods Wrath, upon remaining men on earth "whose names are blotted out"...

THREE WRATHS TO COME...
The BOOKS, of God, of the Lamb...
Are the Testimonies of WHO is or is NOT Subject to Which "of" the Three wraths, or Subject to ALL of the Three wraths to come.


* Rev 6:16....(first)
...Lambs' Wrath
* Rev 12:12...(second)
...Devils Wrath
* Rev 16:1 (third)
...Gods Wrath

Book(s) are opened at Judgement.
The Book of Life.
The Lambs Book of Life.
(And other books of evidence, ie a mans works that glorified God)

Glory to God,
Taken
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Agree, All men naturally born, are Entered by Name, into "Gods Book of Life"...
We can learn the history of men, (our OT examples) who lived and physically died;
Some, believing IN God...
Some, rejecting belief IN God...

The believing Names remain in Gods Book of Life...
The rejecting Names become blotted out of Gods Book of Life....
(Those believing...who CONTINUED in BELIEVE, ie enduring to their end of physical life...Received their Salvation when their physical life ended)

Moving into the NT, a NEW Covenant, a NEW Promise. (Receiving their Salvation "DURING" their Physical Life,)
* BY Spiritually giving their LIFE unto death, crucified with Christ...
Receiving Salvation of their soul.
Receiving Quickening of their spirit.
Living their Spiritual LIFE, IN the Risen Lords Body.

THESE ^ are Never Subject to being Blotted our the Gods Book of Life.

THESE ^ are ADDITIONALLY Names entered INTO, the Lambs Book of Life, which their NAME can NEVER Be BLOTTED OUT.

WHY those TWO BOOKS?
Because there were TWO Teachings.
* The First...to BABES...(ancient men, with less knowledge given, without history, without experience..
(Same concept, as we teach our children, little by little bits of information, until they grow, mature, can comprehend more knowledge)
* the First...Hebrews, Tribes, ONLY KNEW of God.
* Enter the Last...Gods CHRIST the Lord...
to children with 4,000 years of examples, experiences, history...
* and A NEW TESTAMENT, NEW COVENANT, NEW OFFERING...SALVATION NOW...before physical death...

This Offering of SALVATION NOW...
IS predicated ON a mans Heartful Confession of BELIEF...IN BOTH...
"God and His Christ."

A mans NAME ENTERED into The LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE...
Receives ONCE and Forever...
Forgiveness, The Lords acceptance of that mans body dead, crucified with Christ, gifts that man with Salvation of his soul, gifts that mans with a Quickening of his spirit...

AND...Just as in Noah's DAY...the Lord God, Shall KEEP that man FROM WRATH TO COME...by the same manner the Lord God KEPT Saved Noah from Wrath upon the Earth...

Noah was lifted UP, "above" the Face of the Earth...TO the "Face of the waters".
The Face of the Earth was destroyed.

Those IN Lambs Book of Life;
Shall be Lifted UP, "above" the Face of the Earth...TO the "Face of the water...Clouds".
(This is BEFORE Tribulation)

Those ON Earth...shall suffer, THE LAMBS WRATH...as men Accept belief in the Lamb...
Their Wrath ceases, they become SAVED, and their body physically dead. THEIR saved souls, WAIT on earth, for other souls to be saved, Their names, entered into the Lambs BOOK.
(This is DURING first part of Tribulation)

Second part of Tribulation...
The DEVILS WRATH appears. Living body's are KILLED... Some are accepting the Lords Salvation...(names entered into the Lambs Book) ...Some are not. (Names Blotted out of Gods Book)

Third part of Tribulation...
Those with and IN the Lord God...Separated.
Names IN Gods Book, IN Lambs Book, souls and spirits with the Lord God.
Gods Wrath, upon remaining men on earth "whose names are blotted out"...

THREE WRATHS TO COME...
The BOOKS, of God, of the Lamb...
Are the Testimonies of WHO is or is NOT Subject to Which "of" the Three wraths, or Subject to ALL of the Three wraths to come.


* Rev 6:16....(first)
...Lambs' Wrath
* Rev 12:12...(second)
...Devils Wrath
* Rev 16:1 (third)
...Gods Wrath

Book(s) are opened at Judgement.
The Book of Life.
The Lambs Book of Life.
(And other books of evidence, ie a mans works that glorified God)

Glory to God,
Taken

A person who is born again is in the Book of Life. Not every human being even the lost
 

CadyandZoe

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You assume things I didn't say. I never affirmed limited atonement for instance.
 

Taken

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A person who is born again is in the Book of Life.

A person who IS Born Again, IS a person whose NAME, is "entered" into the Lambs book of Life.

Rev :21
[27] And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the [/B] Lamb's book of life[/B].

Not every human being even the lost

Every man that is naturally born, has his Name is Entered into Gods Book of Life.

Its an understanding...(of name AND person)
Names are entered into God book, Because the person exists.
The focus is then ON the Person.
"IF" the person is "entered" into God...
That persons NAME remains in Gods BOOK.
"IF" the person Rejects God, his NAME is blotted out of Gods Book of Life.

A NEW Testimony and Covenant.
Persons...WHO ARE IN Christ.
"THEN" have their NAME entered into the Lambs book of Life.
Once a person IS IN Christ...it is forever.
Once a name IS IN the Lambs book of LIFE...
It is forever...NO BLOTTING of his Name.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Well lookie at that... I just learned something.... I thought names were added to the Book of Life... but apparently they are already there and those who reject Christ get their names blotted out... I did not know this.
Yes, I was surprised when I learned this also..
 

theefaith

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Please show Me how eph 2 refers to salvation and not redemption?
 

justbyfaith

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Quite the opposite. Since names are "blotted out" or removed from the Book of Life as deemed fit by God, every human being is written in the Book of Life until that person rejects Christ and the Gospel, and fails to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, therefore He commands repentance to all men everywhere. God desires the salvation of all, but those who disobey the Gospel condemn themselves to Hell. And it is then that their names are blotted out from the Lamb's Book of Life (or the Book of Life).

Jhn 3:18, He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It would seem that a person's name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life until they come to that moment of first faith; since if they don't believe they are condemned already; and therefore their name is not written in the Book of Life.

It should also be clear that the default of every human being is unbelief; since we are born dead in trespasses and sins and the remedy for that is faith.
 

justbyfaith

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If you look around at these forums... EVERYONE and their dog has an opinion and different beliefs about absolutely EVERYTHING... It is foolish to expect truth from places like this... yet it does exist if one is able to sift through all the lies.

That is why it is important to be a Berean (Acts of the Apostles 17:10-11) and check everything by scripture.

You can trust more implicitly those teachers who quote or at least reference the scriptures that substantiate their viewpoint; unless the scriptures that they quote or reference do not really say what they say that they say.

But one thing you can trust is the holy scriptures when they are quoted or referenced.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Of course, Ezekiel 36:25 should be included in the passage that you have quoted above; not sure why you didn't quote it with the passage.

Eze 36:25, Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27, And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
 
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theefaith

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Jhn 3:18, He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It would seem that a person's name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life until they come to that moment of first faith; since if they don't believe they are condemned already; and therefore their name is not written in the Book of Life.

It should also be clear that the default of every human being is unbelief; since we are born dead in trespasses and sins and the remedy for that is faith.

Believeth on Him:

Does that include baptism?
 

justbyfaith

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Believeth on Him:

Does that include baptism?
Not in that specific verse.

Go to Colossians 2:12 and you might find something different.

But my understanding is that

mere believing is iffy, you "should not perish" (John 3:16).

Believing and being baptized is more absolute as concerning assurance, you "shall be saved" (Mark 16:16).

While calling in the name of the Lord is just as absolute as believing and being baptized, you "shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

Of course, in the days of the early church, men were baptized at the same time that they called on the name of the Lord (Acts of the Apostles 22:16).

However, being baptized, if it is not instituted as a confession of faith in Jesus Christ before men, is only getting yourself wet...and will not have any salvation value.

The only reason why it might save would be as a confession of Jesus Christ before men (Matthew 10:32, Luke 12:8).
 

Amazed@grace

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I believe you are confused about this matter. Since the Tree of Life in Eden implied that eternal life was for all humanity, and God desires the salvation of every human being, the Book of Life has the names of all people. However as they are confronted with the Gospel or the living God, they must choose to obey or disobey. And those who disobey the Gospel, and reject Christ and His salvation, are BLOTTED OUT of the Book of Life. The Bible says that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (which implies eternal death).
Help end my confusion would you please. Post the passage(s) that I must have overlooked that teach the name of every human that shall ever live is written in the Book of Life. As I recall if I may, Adam and Eve were banished from Eden before they would eat of the tree of eternal life.
 

theefaith

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Help end my confusion would you please. Post the passage(s) that I must have overlooked that teach the name of every human that shall ever live is written in the Book of Life. As I recall if I may, Adam and Eve were banished from Eden before they would eat of the tree of eternal life.

that’s the difference between the redemption of all men and the salvation of the few
 

Hidden In Him

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Yes, that tree put into the plan of God that the Book of Life be fulfilled.


that the Book of Life be fulfilled... I'm not into arguing right now, as I am not in a very good mood. I would simply say that along with our concepts of what Biblical predestination refers to, we also apparently have different concepts of what the Book of Life even is. As stated, it merely contains names. Perhaps by your wording you meant, "that the prophecies in the Book of Life concerning those who would be saved and those who would not be fulfilled." But if so, I would again say you have not made a sufficient case that the Book contained anything at at all the foundation of the world, or that it even existed yet. You, of course, would again say I am refusing to believe "in what scripture plainly says" by believing otherwise.

I don't want to discontinue this talk, but we are strongly at odds on this, and it is a serious issue. You are proposing that the God of Love deliberately chooses some to spend thousands upon thousands of years in torment and suffering, even up to this very hour, for no other reasons than that He had decided the matter before they ever made a single conscious decision to do either good or evil. I can't tell you the problems I have with that teaching.

If I am misunderstanding you, my apologies. But I am not in the right place to continue this discussion unless I sensed there was a serious chance of reconciliation. For now, there appears to be only hope and prayer.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
 

theefaith

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God bless,
Hidden In Him[/QUOTE]

Book of life is the grace of Christ!
Sacramental life of grace

The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:



A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

Jn 10:10 life (grace) more abundantly