You are simply regurgitating Reformed Theology's nonsense. In fact parroting it. Which shows the result of serious brainwashing. Just like the JWs and Mormons are thoroughly brainwashed so that Scripture cannot penetrate and do its work, Calvinists are thoroughly brainwashed. Which is a cryin' shame.
Biblical Salvation
- Thread starter ByGraceThroughFaith
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There is nothing there that speaks of God created people purposely for condemnation.
Tong
R2542
I am only reading and studying scriptures. Nothing to do with so-called reform theology.
There is no call for personal comments either.
I am a Christian, not a calvinist. I hear, believe, and follow Christ, not any man.
If you have any argument against my view, please refute properly.
Tong
R2543
While God does in fact mark out for condemnation from long ago those who teach grace as a license for immorality, and therefore double predestination is a biblical doctrine, I don't think that God is sinful in doing so.
But then, I believe that predestination is according to foreknowledge.
Those who believe that God predetermines everything may have more trouble answering.
There is NOT one Christian who teaches Grace as a license to sin... This is the FALSE argument that those who believe in works to STAY saved throw at them. There is NO such thing as a license to sin. It is simply an accusation that gets used to defend LEGALISM.
So, you are denying that the NIV is even an inspired version of the Bible.
Jude 1:3-4 (NIV)
Jde 1:3, Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
Jde 1:4, For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
I think that the interpretation is not lost in the kjv...
Jde 1:3, Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jde 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
I clearly stated what I meant... I do not understand why morning after morning... you sit here...like a crocodile waiting to snare
people into your web of accusations. Have a lovely day.... I am not playing this game with you.
people into your web of accusations. Have a lovely day.... I am not playing this game with you.
You talking to me?
What accusation have I made?
You either deny the veracity of the NIV or else you are ignorant of what it truly says.
That is not an accusation; that is a fact.
post #246.
It isn't argument on my part. What's interesting is when one says they hold the bible to be God's word to the world yet do not accept it as written. Preferring to enter their own preferred teaching and the understanding they then glean in the process. "Test the spirits..." , I believe was advice from God to study also the words of man that interjected themselves into the translations of God's first words to us. Being we do not have the original texts, we are left with copies of copies, of copies. Maybe rather than let your current mood see my questions as argument you might consider I am doing what God tells us to do.May God also bless you.
I do not see how that answers what I have posted.
So, you are denying that the NIV is even an inspired version of the Bible.
Jude 1:3-4 (NIV)
Jde 1:3, Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
Jde 1:4, For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
I think that the interpretation is not lost in the kjv...
Jde 1:3, Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jde 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Read in cases where at least two translations quite differ, you ought take due diligence to check out the Greek texts where that was coming from.
In this case, the word “ordained” in the KJV is significant. It was from the Greek “prographó:” which means “write before”. The NIV renders it better then.
And if one reads the passage carefully, there is nothing there speaking of predestination for condemnation. What we have there is a prophecy of the condemnation concerning those men. Men (obviously not Christians or more precisely not genuine Christians) who pervert the grace of God into a license for immorality and denial of Jesus Christ.
Tong
R2545
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Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Well good morning! I'm hoping this was directed to me, and you still wanted to discuss this. If so, let me address your verses for you. No offense to Tong, but he didn't do you a very good service, because the first especially is one place where it might actually be said that scripture flatly states something and I would be simply choosing to believe something else.
So let's start with Proverbs 16:4.
In the Masoretic (the Hebrew OT) it reads as follows: "Jehovah has made all things for His purpose, yea, even the wicked for the Day of evil." Now, for starters, the problem with taking this as saying He created the wicked for damnation is that it flies directly in the face of other passages of scripture if you were to interpret it like that. Scripture also says that "God desires that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." If He wants all men to be saved, has all things under His control, but yet predestines the majority for damnation, you have a truly strange God on your hands. When it says "God made the wicked," it doesn't mean God made him as such, but that He made him just as He made all other things, giving him the same capacity to do good or evil, only in the wicked man's case he chose evil over good.
Now how do I know this? Because if you look at the Septuagint reading, you get a very different reading that cannot be so nearly misconstrued like the Hebrew can. And keep in mind that when the Hebrew scholars got together to translate the Hebrew into Greek, they were working hard to communicate the meaning of what the Hebrew was actually saying.
The Septuagint reads as follows: "All the works of the Lord are with righteousness, but the impious is kept for an evil day." You see how different that reads? It means that God intended everything for good because His works are with righteousness, but those who rebel against Him and turn to impiousness instead will be preserved for the day of Judgment. This is perfectly in keeping with the rest of scripture, and why God would that all men be saved but some are not. He's not a crazy God, LoL. He makes sense. And any claims that "we cannot understand Him" are nonsense, and an open door to accepting all sorts of heretical teaching that paints Him out to be a total Scoundrel.
Now, Matthew 25:34 is also worth treating for a second, but this is just saying the same thing as I told you Ephesians 1:3-5 says. "Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" just means that the kingdom was prepared in advance, i.e. from the beginning in the mind of God, for those who would choose to walk in obedience to Him and make Him Lord over their lives. This is why the rest of the passage reads, "for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me." They entered into obedience to Him, unlike the wicked who did not, to whom it was instead said, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me." Their condemnation is based on their actions, not on some arbitrary decision He made from the very beginning to condemn some but save others.
I already treated Ephesians 1, and the other three you cited IMO don't really make much of a case for predestined condemnation as they don't really relate to it, but I agree that on the surface Proverbs 16:4 does make it look like you could say God predestined some for condemnation. Does that help any? Again, I'm sorry if I came on too strong. You have to understand I have dedicated my entire life to God. When faced with the argument that He is potentially what I would consider to be a ghastly and grotesque being who condemned the innocent, every fiber of my being just kinda goes on Red Alert. But I didn't mean to misjudge you if that was not what you were trying to say.
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Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Well yes. I agree with the first sentence very much. Far more so than the notion that we should just accept "what Scripture teaches" even if it seems unacceptable or objectionable to our natural human thinking and reasoning. But there are certain avenues of thought that one should guard against. When the enemy comes in with a bald face lie that paints God as a monster, this is not the type of thing we want to let our minds consider and contemplate over for long. When he told the woman in the Garden "Has God said?" he was making God out to be a liar to her, and this is the sort of thing you don't want to stop and contemplate, because you are being sold a bill of goods that could potentially do you great harm spiritually (or in her case both physically, emotionally and spiritually). Sometimes there are notions we would be wise not to contemplate on but rather reject, for the sake of not only ourselves but those we love and who love us.
It's not a sin, per se. But as Paul said in one place, "All things are lawful, but not all things are beneficial."
I hope this helps some.
It seems you don’t agree that whether truth seems unacceptable or objectionable to our natural human thinking and reasoning, if it is what scriptures revealed, it remains to be the truth?
Don’t we believe that water turned to wine when scriptures said it turned to wine, even while that is, according to the natural thinking and reasoning, something unacceptable and objectionable? But we believe it, and that we believe it because scriptures said so.
And the message of the cross, according to the thinking and reasoning of men, is it not foolishness? Why do we believe the message of the cross?
Tong
R2549
The kjv gives the same meaning as the NIV....written about long ago means the same thing as foreordained. I think also that the kjv gives the more accurate meaning of what is meant by "written about long ago" in the NIV.
I think that it does in fact speak of predestination to condemnation; according to foreknowledge.
But you are right in that God does not predetermine that certain people will go to hell.
And that means that God does not predetermine certain people to go to heaven.
For to do one is to also do the other. If God predetermines certain people for heaven, then He predetermines others for hell; whom He did not choose for heaven. They are chosen for hell by default, in that God did not choose them for heaven.
This is an excellent argument for the case of predestination according to foreknowledge rather than predetermination. Because if they are chosen according to foreknowledge, God is not responsible for their condemnation but they are responsible for it. God simply looked down the annals of history and saw that certain people would preach grace as a license for immorality and predetermined that those who do that would receive condemnation.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Tong, this may sound rough, but I have to address your question directly or I am doing you a disservice, as well as the Lord, and others here who might be reading this.
I find the above two things VERY easy to believe. What I do not find it easy to believe is that the Living God might actually be Satan.
God bless, and I believe you can understand my motivations, even if you might not accept my interpretation of the word of God.
Yours,
H
I would disagree. Which is why I placed the proverbs verse first. It stands that when God predestined whom he would save before the world, and by name, those, as in Proverbs, whom God did not choose are not saved.
