Biblical Salvation

[Enoch111]

Post the passage(s) that I must have overlooked that teach the name of every human that shall ever live is written in the Book of Life.

So you are just like all those naysayers who wish to have God give them EXPLICIT statements otherwise you will not believe anything. Well God did not give us a textbook of Systematic Theology, so you should disabuse yourself of that notion.

But God gives us many implicit statements which must be understood by the enlightening of the Holy Spirit. So let's take one passage (the words of Christ) and look at it in the light of John 3:16,17: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)

What is implied in this verse? Can you see it? Since all human beings have physical life, it should be obvious that this "life" of which Christ speaks is eternal life. "The world" is the world of humanity, so when Christ spoke of His crucifixion ("my flesh") as that which would give eternal life to the world, He meant for every human being to have eternal life. Which means all human beings are already in the Book of Life.

But as we know it only by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ that God gives anyone the gift of eternal life (John 3:16,17 which says that "the world might be saved"). So in fact the whole world of humanity is in the Book of Life, and then individuals are blotted out of that book when they fail to obey the Gospel.

Also, every Jew believed that he or she could have eternal life. And that is why the Lord said this to the Jews: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39) And we know that it would only be by looking to Christ Himself that they would receive eternal life. But the underlying assumption was that all could have eternal life, and that is what the Book of Life is all about.

 

[Enoch111]

It would seem that a person's name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life until they come to that moment of first faith

That contradicts the fact that the Bible speaks of God BLOTTING OUT (removing) names from the Book of Life. If they were already absent to begin with, there would be no need for blotting out. So that shoots down your theory.

 

[justbyfaith]

That contradicts the fact that the Bible speaks of God BLOTTING OUT (removing) names from the Book of Life. If they were already absent to begin with, there would be no need for blotting out. So that shoots down your theory.

Names can most certainly be written in to the Book of Life; and can subsequently be blotted out.

So, what is the problem with what I am saying? That it contradicts your pre-conceived notion of OSAS?

 

[Amazed@grace]

that’s the difference between the redemption of all men and the salvation of the few

How does God describe his Book of Life?

 

[Amazed@grace]

Names can most certainly be written in to the Book of Life; and can subsequently be blotted out.

So, what is the problem with what I am saying? That it contradicts your pre-conceived notion of OSAS?

If I may, being I am not the one you spoke to there. What is the problem? For me it is not a problem but a quandary. We are told that God's lambs book of life contains all the names of the saved, and before the foundation of the world. Rev. 21 speaks of the book as well. That quandary then arrives when recollecting Jesus promise that no one will snatch the saved from his hand. Eternal salvation in the lamb is not the eternal promised of God whose gift of grace we are told is permanent,unchanging, if we can lose our salvation and be snatched from the hand of Jesus. The quandary goes further when the book of life was written before earth and of course then Adam and Eve were created. That a name therefore is able to be erased from the book that predates sin and damnation and the call to repentance , having the names of those God wrote down there, saved, prior to all that later able to be erased calls to question the sovereign eternal knowledge and plan of its author, God. Further, it is not then a book of life if the names of the eternally saved can be erased so that they lose all God said is irrevocable as pertains to his saving grace. That they then lose all that made them reborn in Christ, who would then have released them from his hand, that they then return to their former condemned state. Which would need be the case if erased from the lambs book of (eternal) life. All of this pertains to what God says to us in the bible.

 

[Amazed@grace]

that the Book of Life be fulfilled... I'm not into arguing right now, as I am not in a very good mood. I would simply say that along with our concepts of what Biblical predestination refers to, we also apparently have different concepts of what the Book of Life even is. As stated, it merely contains names. Perhaps by your wording you meant, "that the prophecies in the Book of Life concerning those who would be saved and those who would not be fulfilled." But if so, I would again say you have not made a sufficient case that the Book contained anything at at all the foundation of the world, or that it even existed yet. You, of course, would again say I am refusing to believe "in what scripture plainly says" by believing otherwise.

I don't want to discontinue this talk, but we are strongly at odds on this, and it is a serious issue. You are proposing that the God of Love deliberately chooses some to spend thousands upon thousands of years in torment and suffering, even up to this very hour, for no other reasons than that He had decided the matter before they ever made a single conscious decision to do either good or evil. I can't tell you the problems I have with that teaching.

If I am misunderstanding you, my apologies. But I am not in the right place to continue this discussion unless I sensed there was a serious chance of reconciliation. For now, there appears to be only hope and prayer.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

It isn't argument on my part. What's interesting is when one says they hold the bible to be God's word to the world yet do not accept it as written. Preferring to enter their own preferred teaching and the understanding they then glean in the process. "Test the spirits..." , I believe was advice from God to study also the words of man that interjected themselves into the translations of God's first words to us. Being we do not have the original texts, we are left with copies of copies, of copies. Maybe rather than let your current mood see my questions as argument you might consider I am doing what God tells us to do. :) May God also bless you.

 

[Hidden In Him]

"Test the spirits..." , I believe was advice from God to study also the words of man that interjected themselves into the translations of God's first words to us. Being we do not have the original texts, we are left with copies of copies, of copies. Maybe rather than let your current mood see my questions as argument you might consider I am doing what God tells us to do. :)

No you are not, LoL. You are using a phrase written by the apostle Paul, whose words you previously questioned as potentially suspect, to justify a position he would never condone. The argument that "we do not have the original texts" is rooted in the same faithlessness in God as some of the other teachings you espouse, and couching faithlessness under the guise of "testing the spirits" is essentially giving in to a spirit that opposes God.

Like I said, I am not in a good mood... [Edited out for cross-sounding content. My apologies], so I will leave you alone at this point.

Have a great afternoon and I hope you hold no ill-feelings, because I certainly don't. But if we don't stop this soon I will start grinding you to dirt.

Yours,
Hidden

 

[justbyfaith]

If I may, being I am not the one you spoke to there. What is the problem? For me it is not a problem but a quandary. We are told that God's lambs book of life contains all the names of the saved, and before the foundation of the world. Rev. 21 speaks of the book as well. That quandary then arrives when recollecting Jesus promise that no one will snatch the saved from his hand. Eternal salvation in the lamb is not the eternal promised of God whose gift of grace we are told is permanent,unchanging, if we can lose our salvation and be snatched from the hand of Jesus. The quandary goes further when the book of life was written before earth and of course then Adam and Eve were created. That a name therefore is able to be erased from the book that predates sin and damnation and the call to repentance , having the names of those God wrote down there, saved, prior to all that later able to be erased calls to question the sovereign eternal knowledge and plan of its author, God. Further, it is not then a book of life if the names of the eternally saved can be erased so that they lose all God said is irrevocable as pertains to his saving grace. That they then lose all that made them reborn in Christ, who would then have released them from his hand, that they then return to their former condemned state. Which would need be the case if erased from the lambs book of (eternal) life. All of this pertains to what God says to us in the bible.

This all appears to be mere argument that seeks to undermine the following scripture.

Rev 22:19, And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Again, it should be evident that those who do not believe (and who have never believed) are condemned already (John 3:18) and therefore their names are not written in the Book of Life.

 

[Amazed@grace]

This all appears to be mere argument that seeks to undermine the following scripture.

Rev 22:19, And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Again, it should be evident that those who do not believe (and who have never believed) are condemned already (John 3:18) and therefore their names are not written in the Book of Life.

I addresses the argument issue already. And I never said that about unbelievers.

 

[justbyfaith]

I addresses the argument issue already. And I never said that about unbelievers.

What post did you address it in?

 

[Amazed@grace]

No you are not, LoL. You are using a phrase written by the apostle Paul, whose words you previously questioned as potentially suspect, to justify a position he would never condone. The argument that "we do not have the original texts" is rooted in the same faithlessness in God as some of the other teachings you espouse, and couching faithlessness under the guise of "testing the spirits" is essentially giving in to a spirit that opposes God.

Like I said, I am not in a good mood, and you are staring down the barrel of taking one in the face, LoL, so I will leave you alone at this point.

Have a great afternoon and I hope you hold no ill-feelings, because I certainly don't. But if we don't stop this soon I will start grinding you to dirt.

Yours,
Hidden

I see now why you are what you forewarned. Please don't speak salutations of light just after alllll that darkness came out of you and speaks falsely of my posts and heart. You will not grind anything but your teeth later as God wills.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I see now why you are what you forewarned. Please don't speak salutations of light just after alllll that darkness came out of you and speaks falsely of my posts and heart. You will not grind anything but your teeth later as God wills.

My salutations speak of my heart, and they don't speak falsely.

 

[Amazed@grace]

What post did you address it in?

Post 246 as one example.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I see now why you are what you forewarned. Please don't speak salutations of light just after alllll that darkness came out of you and speaks falsely of my posts and heart. You will not grind anything but your teeth later as God wills.

Well I can't sleep again tonight, so I'll respond to this more fully. How about if you explain to me how you believe the Lord could predestine some for damnation and yet not be sinful in doing so? That seems to be the confusion for me.

God bless.

 

[Tong2020]

Well I can't sleep again tonight, so I'll respond to this more fully. How about if you explain to me how you believe the Lord could predestine some for damnation and yet not be sinful in doing so? That seems to be the confusion for me.

God bless.

In my understanding of scriptures, I don’t see God predestining people for condemnation. What I see is a predestination for salvation unto eternal life.

Tong
R2540

 

[Hidden In Him]

I see now why you are what you forewarned. Please don't speak salutations of light just after alllll that darkness came out of you and speaks falsely of my posts and heart. You will not grind anything but your teeth later as God wills.

Btw, my apologies if I spoke falsely about your heart. I didn't actually speak on your heart, only on what your posts appear to be suggesting, which is why I want clarification.

No comments on what I was asking?

 

[Hidden In Him]

In my understanding of scriptures, I don’t see God predestining people for condemnation. What I see is a predestination for salvation unto eternal life.

Tong
R2540

Ok, well that's at least an interesting view. It doesn't make God out to seem so... horrible. But then this begs the question, if He predestines for salvation, what is He doing in not predestining others? Seems you still end up at the same conclusion, yes?

 

[Amazed@grace]

Proverbs 16:4, Matthew 25:34, Ephesians 1:3-5, Romans 8:7, 1John 5:1, Jude 1,

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
In my understanding of scriptures, I don’t see God predestining people for condemnation. What I see is a predestination for salvation unto eternal life.

Ok, well that's at least an interesting view. It doesn't make God out to seem so... horrible. But then this begs the question, if He predestines for salvation, what is He doing in not predestining others? Seems you still end up at the same conclusion, yes?

First of all, whether that seems unacceptable or objectionable to our natural human thinking and reasoning, if it is what scriptures revealed, it remains to be the truth.

But to satisfy your question, here’s how I see that. God, in His wisdom and consistent with His nature, have chosen from among fallen mankind, a people that He makes to be His own people, even adopt them to be His children, and give them the gift of eternal life. These people He saves, and that, in and through Jesus Christ.

Tong
R2541

 

[Amazed@grace]

Something to consider too I think is, God gave us our intellect. It is not a sin to question and seek answers for what we are asked to believe. If ours is a relationship with our creator, is it a healthy one if we are afraid to do that? A healthy relationship grows in the knowledge of one another. That is no less true as pertains to us and our father in Heaven. Matthew 7.