The everlasting gospel, part 2: The fallen
- Thread starter michaelvpardo
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Davy
Well-Known Member
There is no marrying and bearing children in the resurrection. You obviously don't care what Lord Jesus says, but instead default to your own theories.
Mark 12:25
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
KJV
And per John 5:28-29, Jesus showed the "resurrection of damnation" also happens on the day of His return, so they won't be marrying nor given in marriage, nor having children in the world to come either.
Your idea comes from orthodox Judaism, from a limited understanding in The Old Testament.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Jesus in John 5:28-29 said both... resurrection of life, and the resurrection of damnation happen on the day of His return. And Apostle Paul said we shall all be changed, meaning those still alive on earth on the day of Christ's return. And Isaiah 25 hints that the veil covering over all nations will be removed on that day, which is where Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up in victory.
So during Christ's future Millennium reign, even the wicked are going experience the resurrection, yet their mortal souls will still be mortal, and liable to perish in the lake of fire, which is the second death.
This means the world to come is not one in a flesh body, even though it will be on this earth. Jesus is coming here, on earth, to reign with His elect over the nations.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No, what Jesus said has been ongoing in Paradise since the Cross. No one is having babies in Paradise for the last 1991 years. That is what that verse is saying. Not that those resurrected in Revelation 20:4 cannot have offspring. Jesus was not addressing the Second Coming. Jesus was addressing the terms of Paradise.
The dead in sheol are not resurrected at the Second Coming. They only stand before God after the Millennium at the GWT. The Second Coming is for living humans in dead corruptible bodies. The Second Coming is not for souls who have spent the last 5991 years in sheol.
John 5:28-29
"Don’t be surprised at this; because the time is coming when all who are in the grave will hear his voice and come out — those who have done good to a resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to a resurrection of judgment."
Lazarus was the first one to hear the voice of Jesus. Jesus will not stop calling out the dead souls until the GWT. Only those in sheol will come forward at the GWT. Those in Christ have been raised already, starting with Lazarus.
Last edited:
Davy
Well-Known Member
I didn't say anyone is having babies in paradise.
Those in paradise are in spiritual bodies, not flesh bodies.
Those in Revelation 20 are in spiritual bodies, that is what the resurrection body is. For Christ's elect that reign with Him, their mortal souls are made immortal then. That's the difference of what happens on the day of His return and for His Millennial reign.
The nations of unsaved in Rev.20 will also be in resurrection type bodies, NOT flesh bodies. There won't be anymore having children in that world to come.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No, those in Christ are not waiting for the GWT. That is denying these verses:
24 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life — that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life!
25 Yes, indeed! I tell you that there is coming a time — in fact, it’s already here — when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who listen will come to life.
It started with Lazarus. Hearing His voice and being resurrected was already a fact. Why deny these words of Jesus?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I did not say you said that.
I said that Paradise is where Jesus claims, no one has babies. Jesus did not say they were angels with "spirtual" bodies. He said their physical incorruptible bodies were like the angels and no physical offspring.
Yes there are physical bodies in Paradise. A spiritual body is one resurrected from spiritual death, ie the Lake of Fire.
People really need to read John 3 until they know the difference between a physical and spiritual existence. The first type only pertains to the physical. The second type pertains only to the spiritual. Heaven is a physical creation equal to a spiritual creation. Forget this theology that claims earth is only physical and heaven is only spiritual. That is not what Jesus is saying. Adam was created both a physical and spiritual being. He died and lost both physical and spiritual existence. We need an incorruptible physical body from heaven just as much as we need our spirit, a robe of white, still waiting in heaven for us. The soul is still physically and spiritually dead, separated from both realities.
You lost me there for a bit, but I didn't say anything about paradise and I don't believe such a place exists on earth. The Old and New Testaments both describe a kingdom on earth after the judgment with the old going into greater detail on the disposition of unclean animals being given the abandoned desolate places that were formerly inhabited by men, as well as passages like:
The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. Isaiah 11:7
This makes sense in the context of the millennial kingdom, as God can pour out His Spirit on all life to make it a new creation if He chooses to do so. Noah had 2 of each kind of predator on the ark and we have to assume that God made His creatures cooperative somehow.
Since scripture tells us that God will bring people through the judgment to refine them, there's no reason to assume that all life will be destroyed when His wrath is poured out on all flesh. To the contrary there are verses that promise supernatural protection through fires, floods, wars, famines, and even illness.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Where did I say anything about anyone in Christ waiting for the Great White Throne Judgment? You're confused again.
You mean the Lazarus of Luke 16 that was taken to Abraham's bosom in paradise? Where did I ever deny that? You're confused again.
I don't have a big problem with this, but the first resurrection is the resurrection of the "just" and appears to include more than just the church as we know it. If you can enter His kingdom for so little a thing as giving a cup of water to a disciple and even for the name of a disciple, then I would expect multitudes to receive such a reward. However people have been growing more hard hearted and selfish over time. I suspect that the trials the world faces will soften some while hardening others. Some people fear God and judgment even though they aren't Christian. This is why the everlasting gospel is pertinent.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Doesn't anyone study the Old Testament prophets anymore?
This is where Apostle Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up in victory in 1 Corinthians 15:
Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
This is pointing to ending of this present world when Jesus returns. On that day is when God is going to make that feast "unto all people".
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
What do you think that "face of the covering cast over all people", and "the vail that is spread over all nations" is about? It's about this present FLESH WORLD. Because of our flesh, we cannot see Heaven and the angels, but only if GOD Himself touches us to see into it (like He did with Isaiah in Isaiah 6). Our flesh acts as a veil over the heavenly dimension.
But on this day, when Jesus comes, that veil will be removed for all nations. It is how those on the 6th Seal see The Father sitting upon His throne in Heaven. The veil of this carnal flesh dimension is going to be removed on that day Jesus comes.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
That is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 1 Corinthians 15 about death being swallowed up in victory...
1 Cor 15:54
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory.'
KJV
Isaiah 25:9
9 And it shall be said in that day, 'Lo, this is our God'; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: 'this is the LORD'; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
KJV
That verse shows there's no doubt about it, this is for the day of Christ's return.
The flesh of this present world is going to be cast off, revealing the spiritual upon this earth. The heavenly dimension is going to manifest here, on this earth. The Father will still be on His throne in Heaven above the earth, but Jesus will sit upon His throne inherited from David, an earthly throne. And from here on earth He will rule over all nations, with His elect.
This is where Apostle Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up in victory in 1 Corinthians 15:
Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
This is pointing to ending of this present world when Jesus returns. On that day is when God is going to make that feast "unto all people".
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
What do you think that "face of the covering cast over all people", and "the vail that is spread over all nations" is about? It's about this present FLESH WORLD. Because of our flesh, we cannot see Heaven and the angels, but only if GOD Himself touches us to see into it (like He did with Isaiah in Isaiah 6). Our flesh acts as a veil over the heavenly dimension.
But on this day, when Jesus comes, that veil will be removed for all nations. It is how those on the 6th Seal see The Father sitting upon His throne in Heaven. The veil of this carnal flesh dimension is going to be removed on that day Jesus comes.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
That is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 1 Corinthians 15 about death being swallowed up in victory...
1 Cor 15:54
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory.'
KJV
Isaiah 25:9
9 And it shall be said in that day, 'Lo, this is our God'; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: 'this is the LORD'; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
KJV
That verse shows there's no doubt about it, this is for the day of Christ's return.
The flesh of this present world is going to be cast off, revealing the spiritual upon this earth. The heavenly dimension is going to manifest here, on this earth. The Father will still be on His throne in Heaven above the earth, but Jesus will sit upon His throne inherited from David, an earthly throne. And from here on earth He will rule over all nations, with His elect.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Except no one is building a supernatural ark like Noah built for water, but this time for fire. Not just Noah and 7 others are starting over this time. The only ones who we are told do not die are the 144k. No where does it claim they are gathering animals to preserve in an ark, along with 144k female virgins. They are sealed and changed to avoid all the fallout of the Trumpets and Thunders, as God's judgment comes on the earth. These verses declare what they do:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
That is all we are told. If Christ reigns on earth for 1000 years, then they do exactly that with Christ. They follow and do exactly what Christ does. If Christ builds an ark, with them and preserves the animals, then that will happen. We are not even told if they can ever have wives and offspring.
The church is forever in Paradise, that is where the Lord God is in His temple. That is the second half of the same chapter we see 144k Israelites being sealed for work on the earth. Paradise is changed and called New Jerusalem, and only comes down and takes up real estate after the 1000 years in the NHNE.
It is like this:
Heaven is where the angels are, and heaven will be new in 1000 years.
Paradise is where Adam's family currently is, all the redeemed, it is neither Jew nor Gentile. Not even just from Abraham. It is all of Adam's redeemed family. It is in heaven, but not heaven. It will be the New Jerusalem in 1000 years.
The firstfruits including the 144k and those beheaded who refuse the mark, all the sheep and wheat harvested in the Second Coming ministry of Jesus Christ make up the Millennial kingdom on earth. How that happens, we have detail in the OT. We know that all who died, or their soul was harvested, end up as the resurrected in Revelation 20:4. They are judged before thrones (the church in Paradise), then given new incorruptible physical bodies to live on earth for 1000 years. They will continue to live on earth in the New Earth.
Those currently in sheol, they stay in sheol until the GWT. What is under the earth becomes the lake of fire, or is emptied into the Lake of Fire at the GWT. Where this LoF will be located is not revealed to us. We only know that it exists for the beast and the FP for 1000 years. Even Death and sheol have to wait 1000 years to be placed in the Lake of Fire.
Jesus on the Cross indicates to the thief, Paradise is the new place to be. Abraham's bosom was about to be emptied of all the OT redeemed. They entered Paradise with Christ. Presumably after Christ met Mary, because he explained, he had not ascended yet. It was before He met the two on the road. Scripture claims He met them in a different form than when He had met Mary. The OT church was presented to God as the firstfruits along with the thief who had been in Paradise since the day on the Cross, when his soul was with the Lord God that day.
Paradise is the Persian term for Garden. The Garden had been closed to Adam and his family, until the Atonement opened it back up. It was not Abraham's bosom. That was where Adam's family was until the Cross. Why no one else ever ran with the idea is a mystery. Paul called it the third heaven.
The church interpreted that as levels, the firmament 1st level, heaven had some 2nd level, then a third level. That does not make sense. Paradise is just a third area. It may even be closer than we think, we just cannot see it. We cannot see the throne, yet the base, the foot rest is the earth. The throne is based on the earth. Heaven is the place of the angels, the stars that carry out their daily task as the signs, seasons, days and years per Genesis 1:14. Even those will not all be necessary when Christ reigns with an iron rod. How the heavens will look after the Second Coming will be different than now.
Yet at the end of the 1000 years, all this will pass and only the throne will remain. Then a totally different reality will happen. One that even TV cannot prepare us for with man's imagination. A 1500 mile square cube instead of that GWT that cannot be seen right now. Many people just want these physical descriptions to be symbolic of what cannot be imagined. Why not the real thing?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You claimed the above, then ask where?
You said it all happens on the same day. No it does not. It started with Lazarus. The first to hear Jesus call him out of a tomb.
It ends when those in sheol stand before the GWT.
Not all on the same day. There is 1000 years still to go after the Second Coming before that last hour.
If you meant that, then why not say so? This is what Jesus actually said:
"Don’t be surprised at this; because the time is coming when all who are in the grave will hear his voice and come out — those who have done good to a resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to a resurrection of judgment."
Jesus did not say the last day is coming and it happens at His return.
Jesus says time is coming for all and they will know when they are called. It is not all at the same time. Back in verse 25 is the explanation:
"Yes, indeed! I tell you that there is coming a time — in fact, it’s already here — when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who listen will come to life.
A few chapters later in John 11, Jesus calls out the first name. The time was then, because even before the Cross, Jesus declared Himself to be the Resurrection and the Life. In fact the last day for those in Abraham's bosom was the Cross. They do not have to wait for the Second Coming. They already have their everlasting life. Never to taste death again, period!
That generation would never have to taste death again. Not because there was a "Second Coming" in 70AD. It was because there was a Cross in 30AD. That was the last day resurrection, when Jesus called out, "It is finished". Then he called by name, and led out of Abraham's bosom all the souls that were there. Many of them appeared in physical bodies to those who had not turned away or denied Jesus that day.
[QUOTE="Timtofly, post: 1057679, member:
It is like this:
[/QUOTE]
You've stated a lot of things that I've never seen in scripture and I've read through the bible many times, many. While I could have missed something in my reading and have many times, the point of this study is to draw understanding from scripture not to impose our understanding upon scripture.
I'm going to only address one of your objections at this point. You mention Noah's ark and then talk about an ark for a judgment by fire.
Noah built an ark, because that first great purification was by water and because the ark was a "type" of Christ. Anything lighter than water, floats on water. Water is fluid and seeks it's own level so it flows downward into spaces. There were no ways to avoid the waters of the flood with sufficient oxygen to breathe over an extended period of time, so short of giving all life gills miraculously (which God could have done) it was necessary to float a life boat.
Fire is significantly different from water. Scripture tells us that men will hide in the earth, in caves, in clefts in the rock, from the judgment of the Lord. Fire is the process of complex substances oxidizing into ash, gaseous compounds, air suspended particles, and released energy in the form of light and heat. You can't float on fire, but you can use protective gear to go through a fire. You can go underground to avoid a fire and you can fight fires with water and fire retardants. The intensity of the fire mentioned as the final purification could be extreme, but humanity already has large underground bunkers in a number of nations with stored seeds for replanting, food for extended stays, air recycling, water recycling, everything required for survival over an extended period of time. These bunkers aren't for the population, but for the ruling elite and those with the skills to serve them.
God doesn't need such things to preserve people and animals. Daniel's 3 friends, Hadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, were placed in a furnace hot enough to kill the captors that threw them in it. Yet, they walked out alive and without even the smell of smoke upon them.
But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.
When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned,
Nor shall the flame scorch you. Isaiah 43:1-2
In chapter 54 of Isaiah, which discusses the judgment and restoration of Israel we see:
For your Maker is your husband,
The Lord of hosts is His name;
And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel;
He is called the God of the whole earth.
6 For the Lord has called you
Like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit,
Like a youthful wife when you were refused,”
Says your God.
7 “For a mere moment I have forsaken you,
But with great mercies I will gather you.
8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment;
But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,”
Says the Lord, your Redeemer. Isaiah 54:5-8
Those same people who love to call the church spiritual Israel, want nothing to do with this passage and are happy to attribute its contents as applying to the "Jews", or some other church of God, any but their own.
In chapter 26 of Isaiah we have another passage about the judgment, the indignation of God which directly describes the resurrection:
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain. Isaiah 26:19-21
Notice that verse 19 says "your dead shall live; together with my dead body they shall arise". This verse is speaking about the resurrection of the body of Christ, His church, and is a parallel verse to:
And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
So taken together the verses are saying that the dead body of Christ, the martyred and otherwise deceased church will rise together with Israel at the first resurrection.
When is the first resurrection? The answer is in chapter 20 of the book of the Revelation.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5
There's 2 things we can draw from these passages about the judgment and restoration of Israel at the first resurrection. The first resurrection happens when Christ returns and defeats the antichrist and just prior to the bowl judgments that complete the wrath of God.
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. Revelation 15:1
This verse about the completion of God's wrath follows immediately after a passage about the battle of armageddon:
So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs. Revelation 14:19-20
All these passages are about the expression of God's wrath, but the bowl judgments come by the hands of Angels and the judgment at armageddon comes at the hands of men.
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household Matthew 10:34-36
12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them. Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor, And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand; Zechariah 14:12-13
These events, outside Jerusalem, at the gathering of the nations to war against Jerusalem, occur before the first resurrection.
It is like this:
[/QUOTE]
You've stated a lot of things that I've never seen in scripture and I've read through the bible many times, many. While I could have missed something in my reading and have many times, the point of this study is to draw understanding from scripture not to impose our understanding upon scripture.
I'm going to only address one of your objections at this point. You mention Noah's ark and then talk about an ark for a judgment by fire.
Noah built an ark, because that first great purification was by water and because the ark was a "type" of Christ. Anything lighter than water, floats on water. Water is fluid and seeks it's own level so it flows downward into spaces. There were no ways to avoid the waters of the flood with sufficient oxygen to breathe over an extended period of time, so short of giving all life gills miraculously (which God could have done) it was necessary to float a life boat.
Fire is significantly different from water. Scripture tells us that men will hide in the earth, in caves, in clefts in the rock, from the judgment of the Lord. Fire is the process of complex substances oxidizing into ash, gaseous compounds, air suspended particles, and released energy in the form of light and heat. You can't float on fire, but you can use protective gear to go through a fire. You can go underground to avoid a fire and you can fight fires with water and fire retardants. The intensity of the fire mentioned as the final purification could be extreme, but humanity already has large underground bunkers in a number of nations with stored seeds for replanting, food for extended stays, air recycling, water recycling, everything required for survival over an extended period of time. These bunkers aren't for the population, but for the ruling elite and those with the skills to serve them.
God doesn't need such things to preserve people and animals. Daniel's 3 friends, Hadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, were placed in a furnace hot enough to kill the captors that threw them in it. Yet, they walked out alive and without even the smell of smoke upon them.
But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.
When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned,
Nor shall the flame scorch you. Isaiah 43:1-2
In chapter 54 of Isaiah, which discusses the judgment and restoration of Israel we see:
For your Maker is your husband,
The Lord of hosts is His name;
And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel;
He is called the God of the whole earth.
6 For the Lord has called you
Like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit,
Like a youthful wife when you were refused,”
Says your God.
7 “For a mere moment I have forsaken you,
But with great mercies I will gather you.
8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment;
But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,”
Says the Lord, your Redeemer. Isaiah 54:5-8
Those same people who love to call the church spiritual Israel, want nothing to do with this passage and are happy to attribute its contents as applying to the "Jews", or some other church of God, any but their own.
In chapter 26 of Isaiah we have another passage about the judgment, the indignation of God which directly describes the resurrection:
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain. Isaiah 26:19-21
Notice that verse 19 says "your dead shall live; together with my dead body they shall arise". This verse is speaking about the resurrection of the body of Christ, His church, and is a parallel verse to:
And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
So taken together the verses are saying that the dead body of Christ, the martyred and otherwise deceased church will rise together with Israel at the first resurrection.
When is the first resurrection? The answer is in chapter 20 of the book of the Revelation.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5
There's 2 things we can draw from these passages about the judgment and restoration of Israel at the first resurrection. The first resurrection happens when Christ returns and defeats the antichrist and just prior to the bowl judgments that complete the wrath of God.
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. Revelation 15:1
This verse about the completion of God's wrath follows immediately after a passage about the battle of armageddon:
So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs. Revelation 14:19-20
All these passages are about the expression of God's wrath, but the bowl judgments come by the hands of Angels and the judgment at armageddon comes at the hands of men.
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household Matthew 10:34-36
12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them. Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor, And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand; Zechariah 14:12-13
These events, outside Jerusalem, at the gathering of the nations to war against Jerusalem, occur before the first resurrection.
You didn't answer the question. Where do the children come from in the millennial kingdom? Who bears them?
The separation between physical and spiritual is also a first century heresy associated with gnosticism.
Back to our topic, who is this offer to and when does it apply, from Christ's resurrection or from the resurrection of the just?
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The problem is the timing of the Second Coming in relationship to those verses you quoted. The Resurrection of 20:4 has nothing to do with the church being judged. Yes, it involves angels. The angels have been brought to earth years before this post Armageddon Resurrection.
You have to rearrange Revelation too much to get your thought to work. Since angels are involved, no Scripture has to be moved to fit into some human logic or reasoning. Also angels do not harvest a soul when the church meets the Lord in the air. When an angel harvests a soul it is to the Revelation 20:4 Resurrection.
When the church leaves it is physical and the soul receives a new body in the air, and we are then forever in Paradise. For the church, this world has never been our home. We are only ambassadors here. Hebrews 11:13-16
"All these people kept on trusting until they died, without receiving what had been promised. They had only seen it and welcomed it from a distance, while acknowledging that they were aliens and temporary residents on the earth. For people who speak this way make it clear that they are looking for a fatherland. Now if they were to keep recalling the one they left, they would have an opportunity to return; but as it is, they aspire to a better fatherland, a heavenly one. This is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city."
That city will come to earth one day. Still more than 1000 years away.
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."
When God called Israel out of Egypt 1400 years before Christ, He set up a tabernacle, where once a year, God would join them for a day. This was to keep that faith of Abraham in their hearts. After the Cross, that tabernacle was set up in each person's heart, who accepted God's offer to dwell in them.
At the Cross though, God opened that "City", Jesus called Paradise on the Cross. I do not know if it is the New Jerusalem now, or a different city besides just the Garden of Eden. But I do know the majority of the church is already assembled, because millions were waiting in Abraham's bosom. And billions have joined them in the last 1991 years. Those alive today are just the tip of the iceberg. The mustard seed has turned into the mightiest tree, and it is covering the earth, not on the earth.
The church is mentioned in Revelation 20:4.
"I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them."
That is the church. The firstfruits of the Second Coming are being judged:
"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
This resurrection is not for the church. The church was already removed from the earth at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal. The Angels are involved in transporting souls from the final harvest to this resurrection. This process by the angels is the ark of safety. Those beheaded are the one's who endured until the end. The end being the point of their head being chopped off. Then an angel brought their soul to this resurrection. No one at the battle of Armageddon is waiting for a rapture, nor their head cut off. All have the mark, their names already removed from the Lamb's book of life. Upon these people were the 7 vials poured out, leading up to the battle of Armageddon. They have been following Satan for 42 months. No longer hiding out from God's cleansing fire. The battle of Armageddon is the nations of the world joining Satan in solidarity for one last hour against God.
The Second Coming though is at the 6th Seal. Christ does come to the Mount of Olives. This brings an end to the war mentioned in the 4th Seal.
Jesus Himself said the only sign of His Second Coming is the coming itself:
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Those people at Armageddon are not mourning in Revelation 19. They are not hiding in the mountains and caves. They are the same people though.
"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"
The next time we see them:
"That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."
There is a strike contrast in confrontation. These two accounts are totally different from each other. They are not the same event. The first one involves the Mount of Olives. The last one the valley of Megiddo. The first one is the Second Coming, the last one is the end of the 7th Trumpet. The 6th Seal starts the last half of the 70th week. Christ is on earth for the final harvest. Armageddon is the final hour of the 7th Trumpet bringing the 70th week to a close.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
That is your interpretation.
Lazarus did not have a glorified body. No one has a glorified complete restored image of God, even in Paradise. That happens at the 5th Seal.
Lazarus was given an incorruptible body that cannot be touched by the second death. Lazarus did not taste death again. That is like claiming at the Second Coming, we will be given new bodies, but then all the church has to be killed, beheaded, again during the tribulation.
If Lazarus died again, then Jesus lied and was not the Resurrection and the Life. The point of bringing Lazarus back was the proof of such Resurrection and Life. It did not help those on earth though. Jesus pointed out:
"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Lazarus was not brought back to persuade any one, if you take Jesus at His Word. Yet it is the proof. Even today no one is persuaded Lazarus never tasted death again. Just Jesus pointed out that day:
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;"
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"
"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go."
Why?
46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
God put a hook in the mouth of those who witnessed the event, and set in motion the very hour of the Cross that was the Atonement that made the Resurrection and Life possible.
Many doubt what Jesus did that day, just as Jesus claimed when Abraham was talking to the rich man. This event was not for the many. It was for one man, Lazarus, who was the first to hear the voice of Jesus as the Resurrection and Life.
Similar threads
