Why Woul a Loving God Create Such a Hateful Place?

Fire-7 · Mar 21, 2011

This is THE QUESTION of the ages. It's been asked millions of times by millions of people. But there has yet to be an answer.

The new going cliche' is that "God doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves." This sounds catchy, but how much truth really is there to this? This would lead one to examine the subject of Free will, election, and predeterminism. I've found that it is impossible to discuss hell without getting into other theological subjects, because it all ties together.

It then always leads back to the question, IF God is in fact omnipresent (everywhere at the same time) omnipotent (all powerful), and omniscient (all knowing), why did He ever allow "sin" or evil to enter into Heaven (where sin began in the form of pride)? If He doesn't make mistakes, how did He manage to create a defective angel? If He is all knowing, why was He furious at Lucifer's rebellion as if He was surprised? If He knew what Lucifer was going to do before He created Him (which the bible clearly illustrates that He did), this means that He created evil (Isaiah 45:7). The bible says that He had already made the plan of redemption from before the foundations of the world. So, it should be a no-brainer that God orchestrated all of the bad along with the good. David even said that God was in hell, as well as Heaven. It would makes sense, because the bible says that the Heavens of Heavens can't contain God, so hell would also have to be inside of God.

I don't understand how Christians come up with the argument that God is not behind disaster and destruction, when it is as clear as day in Isaiah 45:7 alone, not to meantion the many passages throughout scripture that reiterates God's for knowledge of the bad, as well as the good. If He was only all knowing, then, I could see the possibility of Him not being behind evil. But when you put "all powerful and ever present together with all seeing, you have a God who has the upper hand in every single situation and idea. He is the master chess player.

So, my question is, if God is love--not just has love but IS love, what does this say about love? Is love itself a deceitful term? We know that Go hates, because it states examples of His hate all through the bible. Not to be in any way sacrilegious (it's not blasphemous because I'm not accusing), but one cannot HELP but at least wonder if "God" is really a tyrant at least, and a moral monster at the most. Like what excuse can you offer for this biblical God. What reasoning can you come up with to make Him look like less than a universal manipulator?

I can already hear the blasphemy police coming. So, again, I'm not trying to be sacrilegious, I'm just being honest.

Robbie · Mar 21, 2011

We created it... God's trying to save us from it and our own stupidity that created it...

Fire-7 · Mar 21, 2011

Robbie said:
We created it... God's trying to save us from it and our own stupidity that created it...

Predictable answer...

The only way that we could have created hell would be if we were omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. So by your statement, you are saying that we are God, not Jehovah of the bible. Or that if He is God that we are more powerful Gods than He is.

You also do realize that "God" has a poor track record. Creates a defective angel who turns on Him, creates another race of beings called humans to replace defective angel, humans become defective, He then has to create a substitute for humans, which is half God, half human, who dies to redeem a the race of people who just might make it into Heaven and might not. Not only this, but He actually declares in the bible that not all people will be saved. So, we, in turn, have to live life paranoid--wishing and hoping that we will be one of the lucky "chosen" people who will be saved from eternal damnation.

Robbie · Mar 21, 2011

Predictable response... haha

PS: You do realize you're blaming God for what individuals with free will choose to do... you should probably stop doing that... blaming God isn't something He appreciates very much...

I hate when people blame God for the suffering that's caused by our rebellion against Him...

We can't blame God for the results of us doing something that He told us not to do...

Fire-7 · Mar 21, 2011

Robbie said:
Predictable response... haha

PS: You do realize you're blaming God for what individuals with free will choose to do... you should probably stop doing that... blaming God isn't something He appreciates very much...

I hate when people blame God for the suffering that's caused by our rebellion against Him...

We can't blame God for the results of us doing something that He told us not to do...

See, this is the classic example of what christians do when it comes to answering biblical questions. It's always "your fault".

And I'm not coming down on you or trying to beittle what you're saying. I'm just saying, the christian argument is so rhetorical. I think we oversimplify, in the name of trying to keep it simple. I wish it was that simple, but it isn't.

Robbie · Mar 21, 2011

No worries dude... you can't belittle me... because I'm not the revelation... Christ is... and in a sense you are right... the revelation of God through Jesus is simple... God is Good...

As far as the "fault" part... this is a classic example of humanity... trying to pass blame and not accept responsibility for our choices...

Every bad decision I ever made was because I made the choice.

The reality of God is He's so good that even after He tells us the right thing to do and we disobey Him and do what's self destructive He sends His Son to pay the price for our ignorance... what's more loving than that?

Not only does He tell us the right thing to do... but after we reject His guidance He pays the price for our rebellion... that's the Love of a good Father...

I mean what was He going to do? Keep people locked up in a box?

Good parent's deal with the same principle with their kids... they tell their kids, "Don't drink and drive" the kids listen to stupid advice and do it anyways... the kid then gets a 502 and the next thing you know the parent is paying the price for the consequence of the child disobeying them.

But the parent does it because even though their kids a screw up... they love them...

just like even though we're screw ups... our Father loves us....

aspen · Mar 21, 2011

Fire-7 said:
See, this is the classic example of what christians do when it comes to answering biblical questions. It's always "your fault".

And I'm not coming down on you or trying to beittle what you're saying. I'm just saying, the christian argument is so rhetorical. I think we oversimplify, in the name of trying to keep it simple. I wish it was that simple, but it isn't.

Hell is all perception. It is simply a place for the unredeemed to go to so that they will not have to spend eternity in the presence of a Holy God. If a redeemed person were in Hell, they would know the presence of God and feel fine. The unredeemed are separated from God - wherever they are - Hell is going to be the place they go to together to be separated from Him - physically. All the descriptions of Hell in the NT are real for the unredeemed.

Also, think of Hell as a place for the sick - perhaps a Civil War field hospital (I am thinking of a terrible place) - people feared the hospital more than the battle field in the Civil War because the fatalities from infection were much more numerous than combat. Hell will be a place for the lesser good or diseased - folks who are incapable of knowing God because of their lesser choices (sins) on Earth. The unforgivable sin is the rejection of the justification/sanctification of the HS (blasphemy).

When you think of sin as a sickness - a sickness that Christ has the cure for, but many refuse to accept it - it makes more sense. Many people are going to be mad about this analogy because it looks like I am side-stepping guilt - if you are one of these people - think of sin as alcoholism or some addiction - fatal / disease / self-imposed / curable / involves character flaws.

Templar81 · Mar 22, 2011

I don't like it when people say things like "Hell is just knowing about God but being shut out," or "hell is something we create." hell is a lake of fire that were the souls that don't make it into Heaven are sent to be tormented forever and they will never get out. Hell is a very real place.

On judgement day Christ in all his glory will sit in judgement and angels will prdouce books that record eerything everyone has ever done and when you stand before Jesus he or the angels will look for your namein the book of life and if it is not there then you are sent to Hell. No second chances.

Hell waqs explained to me once as a CONSEQUENCE rathern than a punnishment, since God and man are divided by sin and sin cannot enter Heaven then unless man repents, is baptised by the spirit and trusts in Jesus then he will have no hope of salvation. Being sent to Hell will be the consequence of a life of sin, not the punnishment. I don't believe that God dishes out seperate rewards or punnishments; i.e. the people in Heaven are all the same and the people in Hellare all the same and those in Heaven will not rejoice at the punnishment of the wicked, neither will they be distressed as all will be focussed on God and nothing else will occupy their minds.

Duckybill · Mar 22, 2011

Many who don't believe in the ETERNAL FIRE will soon find out that it is a very real place, with no exit.

Alethos · Mar 22, 2011

Fire-7 said:
This is THE QUESTION of the ages. It's been asked millions of times by millions of people. But there has yet to be an answer.

The new going cliche' is that "God doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves." This sounds catchy, but how much truth really is there to this? This would lead one to examine the subject of Free will, election, and predeterminism. I've found that it is impossible to discuss hell without getting into other theological subjects, because it all ties together.

It then always leads back to the question, IF God is in fact omnipresent (everywhere at the same time) omnipotent (all powerful), and omniscient (all knowing), why did He ever allow "sin" or evil to enter into Heaven (where sin began in the form of pride)? If He doesn't make mistakes, how did He manage to create a defective angel? If He is all knowing, why was He furious at Lucifer's rebellion as if He was surprised? If He knew what Lucifer was going to do before He created Him (which the bible clearly illustrates that He did), this means that He created evil (Isaiah 45:7). The bible says that He had already made the plan of redemption from before the foundations of the world. So, it should be a no-brainer that God orchestrated all of the bad along with the good. David even said that God was in hell, as well as Heaven. It would makes sense, because the bible says that the Heavens of Heavens can't contain God, so hell would also have to be inside of God.

You struggle to reconcile this statement because your understanding of Scripture is incomplete. I don’t say this with any arrogance, at all; I am pleased you posted this topic.

Just think about this logically for a moment.

Do you actually believe that God allowed sin to enter Heaven? I am continually amazed at how many believers have been persuaded by this teaching? But most of all it saddens me that many do not understand sin.

That’s right, if you understood sin this post would not have been written. The origin of Sin will answer one question, but you will have many more at the end of this study.

I will stress that sin comes from inside us. It is our fault we sin - we inherited a nature which is prone to sin Romans 5:12-14. It is because we have a free will to choose between good and evil that we sin. Do you honestly believe the ministering spirits which bear His name and do His work have free will to choose evil? They dwell in light unapproachable, they are glorified beings who are pure and holy as He is holy.

No, long has the human race laid blame at the feet of a devil, or in your case some presumed fallen angel. The very thought contradicts all scripture concerning Gods will being done in Heaven.

Why would you aim for immortality if you could still sin? I hear you thinking "thats not right" Why would God reward those that diligently seek Him with eternal life, when we are no different to our current state? Except with the prospect of being an eternal sinner?????...yes I know it just doesn’t sound right nor does it fit.

You need to remember "the wages of sin is death" (Rom.6:23)

When you labour at work...your wages is money.
When you sin your wages is death.

Sin leads to death. If it is not our fault that we sin, but that of the devil, then a just God ought to punish the devil rather than us. But the fact that we are judged for our own sins shows that we are responsible for our sins. The concept of the devil being a specific person outside of us, rather than the principle of sin within us is an attempt to move the responsibility for our sins away from ourselves. This is yet another example of men refusing to come to terms with what the Bible teaches about man's nature.

Our nature is fundamentally sinful.

"There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him...For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders...pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within and defile the man" (Mk.7:15-23 Jesus Speaking).

The idea that there is something sinful outside of us which enters us and causes us to sin is incompatible with the plain teaching of Jesus here. From within, out of the heart of man, come all these evil things. This is why, at the time of the flood, God considered that

"the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" (Gen.8:21).

In other words people were constantly thinking of ways to be evil.

James 1:14 tells us how we are tempted: "Every man (it is the same process for each human being) is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust ("of his own evil desire", N.I.V.) and enticed". We are tempted by our own lusts, our own evil desires; not by anything outside of us. "From whence come wars and fighting’s among you?", James asks; "Come they not hence, even of your lusts?" (James 4:1).

Each of us has specific, personal temptations. They therefore have to be generated by our own evil desires, because they are personal to us. It has been truly said that we are our own worst enemy.

Paul laments: "In me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing...for the good that I would I do not...if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" (Rom.7:18-21). Now he does not blame his sinning on an external being called the devil. He located his own evil nature as the real source of sin: "It is not I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law (within me), that, when I would do good, evil is present with (i.e. within) me". So he says that the opposition to being spiritual comes from something that he calls "sin dwelling in me".

David, another undoubtedly a righteous man commented upon the constant sinfulness of his very nature: "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:5).

The Bible is very explicit about wicked nature of man. If this is understood there is no need to invent an imaginary person outside our human natures who is responsible for our sins.

Jer.17:9 says that the heart of man is so desperately wicked and deceitful that we cannot actually appreciate the gross extent of its sinfulness.

Jesus also branded human nature as fundamentally evil in Matt 7:11 Ecc.9:3 (Hebrew text) could not be plainer: "The heart of the sons of men is full of evil". Eph 4:18 gives the reason for man's natural alienation from God as being "through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart". It is because of our spiritually blind and ignorant hearts, our way of thinking that is within us, that we are distanced from God. In line with this, Gal 5:19 speaks of our sins as "the works of the flesh"; it is our own flesh, our very being and nature, which causes us to commit sin. None of these passages explain the origin of sin within us as being because the devil put it there; sinful tendencies are something which we all naturally have from birth; it is a fundamental part of the human makeup.

If only more Christians understood the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob and the God of the Lord Jesus Christ. A belief in Satan as a supernatural being is again belief in their being more than one God. How many times has the Father told us "I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me...I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (N.I.V. "disaster"): I the Lord do all these things" (Is.45:5-7,22).

Yes that’s right the Scriptures are very clear if only we read them with care.

God creates peace and He creates evil, or disaster. God is the author, the creator of "evil" in this sense. In this sense there is a difference between "evil" and sin, which is man's fault; it entered the world as a result of man, not God (Rom 5:12).

Who placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden? Yes God did. Who punished Adam and Eve and the Serpent in the Garden? that’s right God did. Who destroy sin and death through His son on the Cross? Yes God did!

Read the below verse slowly and consider deeply what happened on the cross H

Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he (Jesus) himself likewise partook of the same things (flesh and blood), that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

The first problem you have here is Jesus has already destroyed the devil, if it were to mean a supernatural being, which is totally out of context.

Here are some questions to consider regarding Heb 2:14

Do we share flesh and blood? Yes
Jesus also shared flesh and blood? Yes
How did Jesus destroy the devil being flesh and blood?????? Yes, but what had the power of death? Past tense.

Go back to the equation its faultless and always right!!!!

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Did Jesus sin? No, so how did he destroy the devil – that which falsely accusers us before God?

Jesus overcame the flesh by nailing it to the cross, therefore the grave could not hold him WHY? he didn’t earn the wages of sin, So his Father was right to raise him. In offering himself as a sacrifice he satisfied all God's requirements upon that cross and so destroyed sin in the flesh (for himself!)

Remember the flesh is the source of sin so it was the flesh (devil) which needed to be destroyed. Hence his trials, temptations, sufferings and death.

We are still in our probation of flesh and blood and with faith in him and his work we are able to have this mortality put on immortality at his return.

Alethos

Duckybill · Mar 22, 2011

Truth said:
The first problem you have here is Jesus has already destroyed the devil, if it were to mean a supernatural being, which is totally out of context.

James 4:7 (NKJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

1 Peter 5:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Alethos · Mar 22, 2011

Duckybill said:
James 4:7-8 (NKJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

1 Peter 5:8-9 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Hey Duckbill

Thought you could throw up a couple of verses to counteract truth.

Lets look at the pasages in mention.

As you would know context is everything!!

[sup]7 [/sup]Resist the devil (flesh, sin, temptatation) and he will flee from you.

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you (how? in mind). Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

[sup]8 [/sup]Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil (flesh) walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Rom 8:7-8 Because the carnal (animal) mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ducky, does a lion have a carnal mind? Do you have a carnal mind? How might you flee from that mind?

Ducky, do people (christians) of the earth, sinners have evil hearts and two minds?

Ducky what two minds do we have?

1. C_ _ _ _ _
2. S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

So what is the devil here Ducky?

I left a space for you to answer.

Flee from fleshly thinking.

Please if you are going to quote scripture please show an understanding...I could only pressume you believed in a devil. We all have one..take a look in the mirror.

Alethos

Duckybill · Mar 22, 2011

Truth said:
Hey Duckbill

Thought you could throw up a couple of verses to counteract truth.

Lets look at the pasages in mention.

As you would know context is everything!!

[sup]7 [/sup]Resist the devil (flesh, sin, temptatation) and he will flee from you.

It says HE, not "flesh, sin, temptation" that you added.

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you (how? in mind).

With our lives.

Cleanse your

hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

[sup]8 [/sup]Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil (flesh) walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Again, it doesn't say "flesh", it says THE DEVIL.

Rom 8:7

Because the carnal (animal) mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ducky, does a lion have a carnal mind? Do you have a carnal mind? How might you flee from that mind?

Again, ANIMAL is your word.

Ducky, do people (christians) of the earth, sinners have evil hearts and two minds?

Ducky what two minds do we have?

1. C_ _ _ _ _
2. S _ _ _ _ _ _ _

So what is the devil here Ducky?

I left a space for you to answer.

Flee from fleshly thinking.

Please if you are going to quote scripture please show an understanding...I could only pressume you believed in a devil. We all have one..take a look in the mirror.

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not the devil. Satan loves it when humans deny his existence.

Ephesians 6:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Alethos · Mar 22, 2011

Duckybill said:
It says HE, not "flesh, sin, temptation" that you added.

With our lives.

Again, it doesn't say "flesh", it says THE DEVIL.

Again, ANIMAL is your word.

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not the devil. Satan loves it when humans deny his existence.

Ephesians 6:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

you believe in devils but do not understand the word carnal?

He must have a strong hold of you.

G4559

Carnal σαρκικός

sarkikos

sar-kee-kos'

From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.

You should go back over it Ducky.

Theres truth there.

Alethos

ps Do you know what a lion is? Its an animal.

Duckybill · Mar 22, 2011

Truth said:
you believe in devils but do not understand the word carnal?

He must have a strong hold of you.

No, I believe in THE DEVIL, not "devils". Singular.

G4559

Carnal σαρκικός
sarkikos

sar-kee-kos'

From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.

You should go back over it Ducky.

Theres truth there.

Alethos

ps Do you know what a lion is? Its an animal.

It says "as a roaring lion". Note the word AS.

Alethos · Mar 22, 2011

Duckybill said:
No, I believe in THE DEVIL, not "devils". Singular.

It says "as a roaring lion". Note the word AS.

So are you happy "carnal" means animal?

Duckybill · Mar 22, 2011

Truth said:
Ducky! you did it again.

You didnt quote the scripture in context, so you are not learning.

Oh, poor me.

Eph 6:11

Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.

Take note, "THE DEVIL".

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

That's because THE DEVIL is not "flesh and blood".

Who are the these spiritaul forces of evil?

Satan and his evil workers, demons, evil angels ...

I hope you are not implying it's our Father in Heaven

Surely you jest.

So you are saying that the devil are those in Heaven?

I hope not.

What are you saying then?

Revelation 12:9 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, WHO DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Truth said:
So are you happy "carnal" means animal?

Oh please.

Alethos · Mar 22, 2011

hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

[sup]8 [/sup]Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil (flesh) walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

So you believe your Devil devours people in public like a real lion? Have you seen this yourself?

Alethos

Doubled minded is the clue...see it in red.

Joshua David · Mar 22, 2011

Truth said:
So are you happy "carnal" means animal?

Truth,

I have a question for you.. If the devil is nothing but the sin that is already inside of us, then what exactly tempted Jesus in the wilderness?

Joshua David

Alethos · Mar 22, 2011

Duckybill said:
Oh, poor me.

Take note, "THE DEVIL".

That's because THE DEVIL is not "flesh and blood".

Satan and his evil workers, demons, evil angels ...

Surely you jest.

Revelation 12:9 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, WHO DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Oh please.

Please dont take this the wrong way but quoting Rev 12 is certianly the meat of the Word and so far I can barely see milk.

Does this now mean you believe in devils?

Lets be honest you dont understand Rev 12.

I will keep saying it go over the study notes so far...read the quotes in context and better understand the passage before making such unfounded claims of devils.

Why Woul a Loving God Create Such a Hateful Place?

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