Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I believe Jesus is God 100%, without reservation. I just don't believe
A. I'm the creedal version of the 'trinity' and
B. Most certainly don't think you must accept that version of the Godhead in order to be saved.
Understanding the Trinity.
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A. I'm the creedal version of the 'trinity' and
B. Most certainly don't think you must accept that version of the Godhead in order to be saved.
TWO GODS?
By Juan Baixeras
From the start of Judaism and later Christianity, the most famous aspect and unique characteristic of the two religions is the fact that they were, and still are monotheistic. Christianity is really the continuation of Judaism. Both religions believe in one, and only one unbegotten God, creator of the universe. There are no other gods in these two faiths.
Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD... there is no God but me."
Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."
Isaiah 45:6 - "Men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other."
No one will contest that to a Jew or a Christian, there is only one God. Anything else would simply be considered polytheism. The majority of Christianity believes in one God, but a God that is plural in makeup. There are three persons that constitute this one God. They are three, but yet, they are still all the one God. There is: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
In this paper we will be concerned primarily with Trinitarian Christianity’s view of God. Specifically, God the Son.
We all know that God the Son has a Father (God the Father). But the question that must be asked and answered is: can God the Son have a God? Every pastor that I have ever asked this question to has always said "Of course not!" But is that the answer given in Scripture? No, on the contrary. As you will see, the prophesied Messiah in the Old Testament is said to have a God. Then you will see that Jesus the Messiah fulfills those prophesies because he most definitely has a God. If you come to the conclusion that Jesus has a God, then it might be time to rethink and research the Doctrine of the Trinity. Because if God the Son has a God, then there are TWO GODS!
To make this as simple as possible, I am not going to list the huge amount of Scriptures which have God (not "Father") and Jesus in the same sentence, or Scriptures that have God speaking to Jesus, or Jesus speaking to God. We will only be concerned with Scriptures that prove that Jesus has a God.
OLD TESTAMENT MESSIANIC PROPHESIES
Psalm 89:26-28 - "He (the Messiah) shall say of me. "You are my father, my God, my rock, my savior". And I will make him the firstborn."
Micah 5:3-4 - "He (the Messiah) shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the Majestic name of the LORD, his God."
Psalm 22:10-11 - "To you I was committed at birth. From my mother’s womb you are my God."
NEW TESTAMENT
Jesus Speaking:
John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."
Revelation 3:2 - "for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."
Paul:
Ephesians 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Ephesians 1:17 - "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."
2 Corinthians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Corinthians 11:31 - "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ knows, He who is blessed forever, that I do not lie."
Romans 15:6 - "that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Peter:
1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
John:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him
Revelation 1:6 - "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."
When one reads the preceding verses, there is one thing that is a fact. That Jesus Christ has a God. Jesus speaks of his God, Peter Paul and John mention the God of Jesus Christ. Are they all mistaken? Are we to believe that all these verses are misprints? Are we to suppose that theologians several centuries after Christ knew more about Jesus than Jesus and his Apostles? There is no way around it.
The New American Bible (a Roman Catholic Bible) in a section discussing biblical revelation says,
"It is the very same God who reveals Himself in so many richly divergent ways on every page of the Scriptures. The God of Abraham and Moses and David is the God of Jesus of Nazareth."
So does that make Trinitarians and anyone else who thinks that Jesus is God polytheists? It sure does! One God plus One God equals TWO GODS.
"Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3). Jesus’ own words. God bless you.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I eagerly await Appeal to Ad Homenim response from our trinitarian friends.
In another thread, I was told I was not qualified to re-write the Bible - AS IF - that is what I was doing. Jesus' God is the only God.
But to ponder such language usage, it necessarily means there are 2 beings. The subject of the sentence is God - in his unitarian nature acting on the object of the sentence, e.g. Acts 3:15. Then there is inescapable logic.
Logic Test 1
P1. No one has seen God. John 1:18
P2. People have seen Jesus. Acts 3:15
C. Jesus is not God.
P2. People have seen Jesus. Acts 3:15
C. Jesus is not God.
Logic Test 2
P1. Jesus taught us to pray to God who is our Father.
P2. Jesus did not teach us to pray TO the Holy Spirit.
P3. God is Spirit.
P4. God's Spirit is Holy.
P5. People pray FOR the Spirit but not TO the Spirit.
C. The Holy Spirit is an attribute of God (like God's words), not a distinct being.
P2. Jesus did not teach us to pray TO the Holy Spirit.
P3. God is Spirit.
P4. God's Spirit is Holy.
P5. People pray FOR the Spirit but not TO the Spirit.
C. The Holy Spirit is an attribute of God (like God's words), not a distinct being.
God raised Jesus from the dead, whom my friend John and I have seen with our own eyes.
Acts 3:15
No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.
John 1:18
This verse of John 17:3 and like others tigger, (young man... in spirit and heart of course
) is so simple, clear and pure in presentation and understanding, a child can absorb it without difficulty. And yet these types of simplistic verses, can be kryptonite to many religious loyalists. They threaten and attack their spiritual belief systems. So for example, John 17:3, and its primitive easy-to-understand meaning must be expunged and replaced with a new understanding to conform then not to scripture, to their learned religious teachings of men.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
In the NT, yes. There are 1,000's of OT verses that speak of the only God is alone via singular pronoun use.
This verse of John 17:3 and like others tigger, (young man... in spirit and heart of course
Typical response is to make personal attacks, invoke JW, Watchtowever or some other pejorative AS IF only a reprobate could possibly take God at his word and not impose trinitarian dogma onto unitarian text.
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
..................................................This verse of John 17:3 and like others tigger, (young man... in spirit and heart of course
Instead of clear, simple statements that God is three persons who are equally the one God, trinitarians most often compare one scripture with another and manage to “discover” that God is three equal persons. So here is a tongue-in-cheek example of that technique used for another person. It’s more difficult since Jesus has more and loftier words written about him to choose from than David.
Quadrinarian “proof” that David is equally God
First, David is actually addressed as Jehovah God!
1 Sam. 20:12 actually, literally says in all the ancient Hebrew manuscripts: "Then Jonathan said to David: 'Jehovah God of Israel, I will certainly sound out my father....'" (Compare KJV and JPS). Most Bible translators who are not Quadrinarians actually add to the inspired word of God at this verse to make it say: "By the LORD God of Israel" (NIV) or "I promise you in the sight of the LORD the God of Israel" (NEB) or "Jehovah, the God of Israel, be witness" (ASV, cf. NASB, RSV). But these translations are distorting and actually adding to the inspired word of God which clearly calls David "Jehovah God"!
Second, God Himself calls Jesus "My Servant" [literally "the servant of me"] - Matt. 12:18; cf. Acts 3:13, RSV. He also calls David "My Servant" [literally "the servant of me"] - 2 Kings 19:34; Ps. 89:3. The person God calls "My Servant" is well-known to Bible scholars as The Messiah ("Christ" in the Greek translations),e.g., Is. 53:11 - see New Bible Dictionary (2nd ed.), p. 1093, Tyndale House Publ . Therefore David is equally Christ (and, therefore, also equally God).
Third, David claims the exclusive title of Christ (and God) by declaring himself to be the great "I Am" [Ego Eimi] at 2 Kings 15:26, Septuagint (2 Sam.15:26 in English Bibles) which when translated literally says: "Behold! I AM." (idou Ego Eimi). This is the very same exclusive title of God, as trinitarians well know, that Jesus claimed for himself at John 8:58: "Before Abraham was born, I Am [Ego Eimi]." David is Christ and God!
Fourth, David is equally Christ with Jesus himself: Luke 9:20 tells us that Peter declared Jesus to be "The Christ [christon] of God." But 2 Samuel 23:1 also declares David to be "The Christ [christon in the Septuagint] of God"! Yes, Jesus and David are the one "Christ of God." Since the Christ is also God, as trinitarians well know, then David, too, is God!
Fifth, In 2 Sam. 14:20-22 we find David called "My Lord" - the title for Jesus and Jehovah. (cf. Acts 2:34; Jn 20:28; Ps. 8:1).
Sixth , also in this same highly significant passage David is being declared omniscient or all-knowing (which trinitarians well know is one of the exclusive, untransferrable qualities of God alone) - 2 Sam 14:20.
Seventh, 1 Kings 1:43 - "Jonathan answered Adonijah, 'No, for our lord king David has made Solomon king.'" - NRSV.
2 Chronicles 1:8 - "And Solomon said to God, 'Thou hast shown great and steadfast love to David my father, and hast made me king in his stead.'"
Eighth, and, again, to show the absolute equality of Jehovah God and King David we find David the King receiving equal worship with Jehovah God at 1 Chron. 29:20. Yes, the actual Hebrew of the original God-inspired scriptures says: "so the entire assembly praised Jehovah, the God of their fathers: they bowed low and worshiped [shachah] Jehovah AND THE KING." - cf. KJV.
The word 'worshiped' (shachah) used here is exactly the same word as used at 2 Chron. 7:3 (see The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament, Zondervan, 1982). The praise of Jehovah included worship [shachah] of God and David! There is no separation of the two found here. They are inseparably bonded together in the very same expression of faith ("Jehovah and the king") and adoringly bathed in the same single united act of worship which recognizes and celebrates their one essence!
We also find David being worshiped at 2 Sam. 14:22. The Israelite Joab (whose name means 'Jehovah is the Father') actually worshiped David. The word used in the ancient Hebrew scriptures is shachah - the very same word translated "worship" at 2 Sam. 12:20 and 15:32 - see Strong's Concordance. This is also the same word used at 1 Kings 1:31 where the inspired word of God tells us that Bathsheba also worshiped David! - see Strong's.
Ninth, the King's throne in Israel was known as "the throne of Jehovah" - 1 Chron. 29:23. This very same throne was called (and continues to be called through the ages) "the throne of David." - Jer. 17:25. David is Jehovah God. Even at the end time when the Messiah sits down on Jehovah's throne, that very throne is called (not Jesus' throne, but) the throne of David! - Is. 9:7. The eternal throne of Jehovah is at the same time the eternal throne of David! David is Jehovah God.
Tenth, another, similar proof is that "the Son of God," Jesus, is also called "the Son of David"! (Luke 4:41; 18:38) The one Father of Jesus has both the title "God" and the name "David"! David is God!
Eleventh, we find 1 Chron. 29:29 literally using the terminology for David as that used for Jehovah: "THE FIRST AND THE LAST"! Strong's Concordance shows that the same Hebrew words used to identify Jehovah as the "First and Last" at Is. 44:6 are also used here to describe David. As trinitarians know, this is one of the prime identifiers for God (Is. 44:6) and also for Jesus as being equal to God (Rev. 1:17). So when we see "First and Last" used for David (cf. Young's; LITV; KJV; NKJV; ASV; NAB; JPS 1917), we know absolutely that he is one of the Persons of the Holy Christhead and, therefore, also one of the Persons of the Holy Godhead!
And, Twelfth, in a final and conclusive confirmation we have proof of a Quadrinity (Jehovah, Jesus, Holy Spirit, and David):
Whereas the number three is never used in Scripture in any way that could reasonably be construed as proper evidence for a trinity (see the IMAGE study, note #8), the number four is clearly given in scripture as evidence of the Holy Quadrinity.
Some examples are listed in the trinitarian New Bible Dictionary (NBD):
"Four ... is one of the symbols of completion in the Bible." [So the complete identity of God will not be perfected until the four (complete) persons are known. - T2.] "The divine name Yahweh has four letters in Heb. (YHWH)." - p. 845, second ed., Tyndale House Publ., 1984.
What could be more clear as to the four-person composition of God than the evidence found in the composition of his very own personal name? And what could be plainer than the evidence of David's place as the fourth member of this Quadrinity as shown by the four letters of his name (DWYD) in Hebrew. The very first letter of this significant name is the fourth letter of the Hebrew alphabet; the very last letter is the fourth letter of the Hebrew alphabet.
Thus, the "First and the Last" (see #11 above) of the composition of his name show his place in the composition of the four-fold God!]
You indeed have made a Quadrinity. I see all your steps in your example argument using Trinity-style logic and flexible scripture connections, wording and meaning, with gymnastic jumps and leaps to bake a new Quadrinity.
You present a very precise and seemingly logical explanation using scripture in a way to jump to many erroneous conclusions, deliberately, to prove your case that Trinitarians use this same train of thought, the same illogical rationale. There's no difference.
Tongue in cheek as it may be, although in reality this is the real thought process used by many Trinitarians to show their 3 personalities in one non-descript god in in scripture - and it is not there at all.
Full marks, my hat goes off to you tigger. You have put some time and energy into it sir. Bless your work and your ministry.
I believe I may hijack some of your material and tweak it a bit into a book that's still in work. I will credit you for it of course....let me know how you may want me to list you...I believe you have a website??
APAK
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Brilliant.
Once again, I look forward to the various predictable personal attacks. tigger 2 belongs to a terrible denomination. He's not qualified. Or just assert, tigger 2 is simply wrong on every count or "twisting" the words of God, etc.
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
Thank you Wrangler and APAK. My blog is Examining the Trinity There is a pretty good index at the upper right of the blog page (thanks to my son!)
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Precious friend: "If you insist on the trinitarian translation of this important verse ("the Word was God"), here are my personal, detailed studies disproving it:"
We "don't insist" on anything, but we do believe What God's PERFECT WORD
Teaches In ALL Of HIS PERFECT WORD, According To ALL HIS Rules!:
Here are the first THIRTEEN (of 150+) Biblical Reasons we believe HIM And
HIS PERFECT WORD Of Truth, and DISbelieve ALL corrupt versions - Please
Be Richly Encouraged and Edified:
The Case FOR The Triune GodHead!
Amen!
God's Simple Will!
@GRACE ambassador your link in post #70 covers a list of unexplained scripture verses or passages of scripture. And there are many of course. It would take me dedicated hours of work to explain each one to you.
Well look at the first one in the list...
(A) The Holy Spirit Is The God That "Ananias And Sapphira lied to!"
(Acts 5 : 3-4 KJB!).
First, verses such as Acts 5:3 and 4 are used as 'proof', for your doctrine of the Trinity as you believe in, although it is never explicitly read in scripture. This is a major drawback already going into this subject.
This type of reasoning you are using here is actually circular reasoning. The doctrine is assumed, and then, because this verse fits the assumption, it is stated to be proof of the doctrine.
It is obvious that the (Holy) Spirit and God are addressed. These verses are clearly an example of Semitic parallelism, which is one of the most commonly employed literary tools in scripture. 'God' is equated with 'the Holy Spirit.' There are other examples.
Now I believe you also think that you see 2 people/persons here in this scripture. The question has to be answered whether you think that 2 persons are being lies to, or just one. If you say two, then this would make no sense? Peter is speaking to one person that is being offended, by inferring that the Holy Spirit is the same one God not another person of a Trinity.
Peter is not saying there are two persons that Ananias has lied to, only one. If you read on further you will see that in verse 9 Peter clears up any confusion because he says that he is referring to only one person, the Spirit of the LORD (and Lord should be all Caps to not confuse Lord for Christ). So Peter is saying that the Holy Spirit is the LORD himself, it is who he is, Spirit. The LORD is the one and only Holy Spirit as one person, not two. In fact is can be easily shown that the LORD is the Father and is (Holy) Spirit. So I do not see any 3rd person, God the Holy Spirit of a 3-composite God in this scripture you have listed here. Peter was always referring to the one God, LORD, or YHWH whose Spirit is Holy.
Well look at the first one in the list...
(A) The Holy Spirit Is The God That "Ananias And Sapphira lied to!"
(Acts 5 : 3-4 KJB!).
First, verses such as Acts 5:3 and 4 are used as 'proof', for your doctrine of the Trinity as you believe in, although it is never explicitly read in scripture. This is a major drawback already going into this subject.
This type of reasoning you are using here is actually circular reasoning. The doctrine is assumed, and then, because this verse fits the assumption, it is stated to be proof of the doctrine.
It is obvious that the (Holy) Spirit and God are addressed. These verses are clearly an example of Semitic parallelism, which is one of the most commonly employed literary tools in scripture. 'God' is equated with 'the Holy Spirit.' There are other examples.
Now I believe you also think that you see 2 people/persons here in this scripture. The question has to be answered whether you think that 2 persons are being lies to, or just one. If you say two, then this would make no sense? Peter is speaking to one person that is being offended, by inferring that the Holy Spirit is the same one God not another person of a Trinity.
Peter is not saying there are two persons that Ananias has lied to, only one. If you read on further you will see that in verse 9 Peter clears up any confusion because he says that he is referring to only one person, the Spirit of the LORD (and Lord should be all Caps to not confuse Lord for Christ). So Peter is saying that the Holy Spirit is the LORD himself, it is who he is, Spirit. The LORD is the one and only Holy Spirit as one person, not two. In fact is can be easily shown that the LORD is the Father and is (Holy) Spirit. So I do not see any 3rd person, God the Holy Spirit of a 3-composite God in this scripture you have listed here. Peter was always referring to the one God, LORD, or YHWH whose Spirit is Holy.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Just to affirm this, Peter makes his idea of one God explicit in his Epistles. Most trinitarians rush to defend the man-is-god thesis but overlook how the Apostles only recognize 2 beings: God, in his unitarian nature, and the man Anointed by God who God resurrected, Jesus. NOTE: The absence of a 3rd being in these passages.
Blessed is God, the Father of our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One! Because He has raised Jesus the Anointed from death, through His great mercy we have been reborn into a living hope—
1 Peter 1:3
17 You see, God the Father lavished honor and glory upon Jesus when the voice of the Majestic Glory echoed from heaven and said, “This is My beloved Son, and My favor rests on Him
2 Peter 1:17
@GRACE ambassador I might just go further down your list you have presented...
(B) The Holy Spirit IS The God That Raised JESUS CHRIST From The Dead!,
(Romans 8 : 9-11 cp 1 Corinthians 6 : 14; 2 Corinthians 4 : 14; 1 Peter 3 : 18)
Romans 8:9-11 describes the Spirit of the LORD or of the one God, and the spirit of his Son, the Christ. Two separate spirits here. The Father's spirit raised his Son's spirit to life into an immortal body. And again, the Spirit of the LORD is Holy. There is no God the Holy Spirit even remotely implied here. And it definitely does not say 'The Holy Spirit IS THE GOD' like an impersonal title, that raised his Son. It says the Spirit of the LORD, the Father of Christ by obvious extension and deduction.
1 Corinthians 6:14 speaks of the power of God raising his Son, not another God THE SPIRIT. The power of God, of the Father is actually his spirit spoken of here.
2 Corinthians 4:14 speaks to the ONE God who raised his Son from the dead not GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT.
1 Peter 3:18 speaks of Christ bringing us to the ONE GOD, (to his Father). Just by this language alone, Christ cannot be the ONE GOD nor part of the same ONE GOD, nor can the the HOLY SPIRIT be part of the ONE GOD. God is ONE.
(C) The Holy Spirit IS The Omnipresent God That Dwells IN All "believers,"
Being The "Blessed Teacher!," For: Understanding!
(Romans 8 : 9-11 cp 1 Corinthians 3 : 16, 6 : 19, 2 : 13!)
1 Corinthians 3:16/6:19 speaks to the one God as being your temple and it's his spirit then that is this temple, within you. There is no mention of an impersonal GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT. Where is the GOD THE JESUS or THE SON in all this? Did he take a vacation? No, the Spirit of the LORD or the one God, our Father, and of his Son resides in us. And even though this verse does not explicitly address it, this same Spirit of God, our Father is also in Christ Jesus, as he is also in us. That counts to a total of 3 spirits: of US, of Christ, and the Father, the only ONE God.
1 Corinthians 2: 10-14 speaks to the Spirit of the one God. The Spirit of God only knows the mind or thoughts of himself, as we only know our own thoughts from our own spirit. By logic and deduction then we can say, that God has a Spirit as we have our own. And we do not have two people inside of us, one called the G(g)od the spirit and the other, God of us, a human being; as God is not of at least 2 people, himself and then his own intrinsic Spirit, his life and power that makes him living. These Spirts of each, are intrinsic attributes of each other, as one indivisible person, one called us, a human being, and the other, our one true God. Who again has the unique Holy Spirit of power and it is OMNIPRESENT.
(B) The Holy Spirit IS The God That Raised JESUS CHRIST From The Dead!,
(Romans 8 : 9-11 cp 1 Corinthians 6 : 14; 2 Corinthians 4 : 14; 1 Peter 3 : 18)
Romans 8:9-11 describes the Spirit of the LORD or of the one God, and the spirit of his Son, the Christ. Two separate spirits here. The Father's spirit raised his Son's spirit to life into an immortal body. And again, the Spirit of the LORD is Holy. There is no God the Holy Spirit even remotely implied here. And it definitely does not say 'The Holy Spirit IS THE GOD' like an impersonal title, that raised his Son. It says the Spirit of the LORD, the Father of Christ by obvious extension and deduction.
1 Corinthians 6:14 speaks of the power of God raising his Son, not another God THE SPIRIT. The power of God, of the Father is actually his spirit spoken of here.
2 Corinthians 4:14 speaks to the ONE God who raised his Son from the dead not GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT.
1 Peter 3:18 speaks of Christ bringing us to the ONE GOD, (to his Father). Just by this language alone, Christ cannot be the ONE GOD nor part of the same ONE GOD, nor can the the HOLY SPIRIT be part of the ONE GOD. God is ONE.
(C) The Holy Spirit IS The Omnipresent God That Dwells IN All "believers,"
Being The "Blessed Teacher!," For: Understanding!
(Romans 8 : 9-11 cp 1 Corinthians 3 : 16, 6 : 19, 2 : 13!)
1 Corinthians 3:16/6:19 speaks to the one God as being your temple and it's his spirit then that is this temple, within you. There is no mention of an impersonal GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT. Where is the GOD THE JESUS or THE SON in all this? Did he take a vacation? No, the Spirit of the LORD or the one God, our Father, and of his Son resides in us. And even though this verse does not explicitly address it, this same Spirit of God, our Father is also in Christ Jesus, as he is also in us. That counts to a total of 3 spirits: of US, of Christ, and the Father, the only ONE God.
1 Corinthians 2: 10-14 speaks to the Spirit of the one God. The Spirit of God only knows the mind or thoughts of himself, as we only know our own thoughts from our own spirit. By logic and deduction then we can say, that God has a Spirit as we have our own. And we do not have two people inside of us, one called the G(g)od the spirit and the other, God of us, a human being; as God is not of at least 2 people, himself and then his own intrinsic Spirit, his life and power that makes him living. These Spirts of each, are intrinsic attributes of each other, as one indivisible person, one called us, a human being, and the other, our one true God. Who again has the unique Holy Spirit of power and it is OMNIPRESENT.
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Its absent of this 3rd being of the same essence of the other two, is very obvious. And of course is hidden from thought, and therefore never mentioned as this will only mess up their neat mysterious triad thing they have going.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Exactly! What is absent tells the story. Many times the Bible identifies God, the Father. Never is any other God identified, e.g., God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. This is glaring and as explicit as could be.
Trinitarians like to suppose 'God the Father' implies other Gods while simultaneously asserting the dualistic proposition God is one in 3. Consider the corollary use of language; Beloved is Donald Trump, President of these United States. We realize what comes after the name "President" is the title of what came before. Who is blessed in 1 Peter 1:3? God, in his unitarian nature. What is the title (or relationship) of this unitarian God? Father.
Continuing with this corollary use of language, no one would suppose Donald Trump is the US or the US is Donald Trump. That would be absurd on its face. Yet, that is exactly what trinitarians do in addition to deliberately confusing God (which is synonymous with LORD, capital) with lord (not capitalized and NOT synonymous with God). The subject of the sentence is not the object of the sentence.
Final point in corollary use of language, who is blessed and who is not blessed in 1 Peter 1:3. Blessed is George Washington, President of our VP John Adams. The VP is not the one blessed in the sentence - and neither is Jesus. In 1 Peter 1:3 and the corollary use of language, the first being ALONE is blessed, God and George Washington. Just because the sentence adds a relationship titled parenthetical expression does not change who is blessed. 1 Peter 1:3 blesses God, who is NOT Jesus in the sentence.
Naturally, trinitarians have to abuse language usage to assert both beings are blessed in the sentence AS IF objects of sentences are subjects of sentences. The boiling water spilled on me. Trinitarians want it accepted that "me" is boiling and or spilling.
https://www.christianityboard.com/bible/1-peter/1:3/
The same analysis can be done with 2 Peter 1:17. Who lavished honor and glory? God, in his unitarian nature. God is the subject of the sentence. Who did he act upon? Who is the object of the sentence? Jesus. Like 1 Peter 1:3, the titled relationship is included. Trump, the President truly honored America's traditional institutions. Parenthetical expressions do not change the fact that it was God, in his unitarian nature, that is doing the action.
God, our great and wonderful Father, truly honored him by saying, “This is my own dear Son, and I am pleased with him.”
2 Peter 1:17 (CEV)
And not only if the focus is just on the Father and Son, explicitly, and the 3rd person is conspicuously absent, as you said, it is also the same when the focus is only about the Father and his Spirit; then the 2nd person, Jesus, suddenly becomes conspicuously absent, or takes a vacation. In other words, they can never show where and how all three of their persons as God works together in scripture, based on scripture that has not been corrupted.
And then there are more examples as you have presented where the subject, object and verbs are manipulated to force a different meaning of who is the subject, and who is the object, or both, with the aim to produce one of their 3 persons as the one God. And then there is the scripture context, that quickly goes out of the window or ignored if it becomes an obstacle in producing one of the 3 persons as God.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I love how they parse synonyms to support their doctrine:
- Person is not the same as a being. Huh?
- Begotten is not made. Huh?
- Jesus died in part. Huh?
Trinitarians just ignore the fact of what is absent. Jesus did not teach the trinity.
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@GRACE ambassador ..going slowly down your list....
1) God Was Manifest In The Flesh! (1 Timothy 3 : 16)
The KJV and other translations produced a corrupt 1 Tim 3:16! They deliberately replaced the word 'he' to 'God.' I can give a 3 page commentary on just this point alone, although I will spare you this evidence, that you may not appreciate anyway.
JESUS CHRIST Was Manifest In The Flesh! (John 1 : 14)
The Greek word Logos for 'word,' never means a person, let alone Christ. The word has everything to do with modes and styles of any communication by any means , and for a purpose or plans of any form.
You have been deceived.
If you stick to this impossible translation and new meaning of 'logos' then at least make sure you make a side note in your Bible that says 'logos' never means a person except after 400 AD, when churches agreed it also means Jesus the Christ. And then I wonder what is really your basis for in believing this ?
I could easily provide several pages of commentary on this verse alone. And of course the 'word' in John 1:1-3 completes the circular reasoning and 'proof' for having the same meaning for logos in verse 14. Without John 1:1-3 then this peculiar meaning would never exist in verse 14, and so for the reverse, the same for John 1:1-3.
2) JESUS CHRIST Is EMMANUEL
“interpreted = God With us!" (Matthew 1 : 21-23)
This response is a little longer as I had it mostly already intact in my notes.
Verse 21: You shall call him Yahshua, (Joshua), because God our Father shall save his people once more. Immanuel indeed. God is working his purpose and plans for those that love him through his Son who shall have his (some) thoughts and voice.
This verse 23 thus is a dual prophecy (before - Matt 1:22 and then in Matt 1:23)
This scripture was completely fulfilled (God is with us) through Mary (Mariam) who was really young and an unmarried woman, and Joseph who was not yet married to Mary. Both were descendants from the House of Judah.
Note that the Hebrew word ‘alma’ does not necessarily mean a virgin, although it was a strict law and custom to be a virgin before marriage.
She birthed a son and YHWH conceived him and his spirit was in him. Jesus (Yahshua), named by YHWH, to carry his name, that He saves his people. And Yahshua was with Mary and Joseph as their son, indeed.
Jesus became the special man and true representation of his Father in spirit and mind, Immanuel indeed. God was with Jesus. See Isaiah 7:14 for the initial promise of YHWH to Isaiah and his wife and the tribe of Judah.
Verse 23: Immanuel does not mean Jesus the Son of God, is actually God, as Trinitarians and Oneness people believe. Why would they believe in 2 Gods?! God is with his Son, and his people, executing his plans and carrying his voice and thoughts. Yahshua carries out the will of his Father. All true believers will eventually be living with God, as Jesus was from his birth. See Rev 21:3.
In Proverbs 30:1. A women named her son Ithiel, ‘God is with me’ as translated from Hebrew.
The idea of Immanuel also embeds the meaning of being “among.” God is now among humanity through those in/as the body of Christ.
Trinitarians believe that somehow this scripture means that God ‘came down from heaven’ and placed him own spirit inside the egg of Mary. And therefore, Jesus is God and therefore God is with us, Immanuel. How can someone believe God was born, let alone was dead and also tempted.
They really cannot explain how the Spirit of God became its own human being and not a new human creation as the 2nd Adam. In fact, they do not speak of the 2nd Adam at all in this discussion. That Jesus is God is a mystery to them and so they borrowed a pagan concept, of incarnation to explain it. They added this pagan concept in their understanding of this scripture and many others. It stays a mystery and an incomprehensible concept.
Why did not Matthew or Luke present scripture concerning God ‘coming down from heaven’ into the womb of Mary?
In Isaiah 7:14-16, it says of the boy and later Jesus the man, learned to choose good over evil when he was humbled by eating basic food for survival. His Father made him suffer in humility and by physical hardship for him to ‘know’ goodness. This does not sound like that this human was actually God that ate curds and honey to know what is good! Christ has to have 'God with him.'
1) God Was Manifest In The Flesh! (1 Timothy 3 : 16)
The KJV and other translations produced a corrupt 1 Tim 3:16! They deliberately replaced the word 'he' to 'God.' I can give a 3 page commentary on just this point alone, although I will spare you this evidence, that you may not appreciate anyway.
JESUS CHRIST Was Manifest In The Flesh! (John 1 : 14)
The Greek word Logos for 'word,' never means a person, let alone Christ. The word has everything to do with modes and styles of any communication by any means , and for a purpose or plans of any form.
You have been deceived.
If you stick to this impossible translation and new meaning of 'logos' then at least make sure you make a side note in your Bible that says 'logos' never means a person except after 400 AD, when churches agreed it also means Jesus the Christ. And then I wonder what is really your basis for in believing this ?
I could easily provide several pages of commentary on this verse alone. And of course the 'word' in John 1:1-3 completes the circular reasoning and 'proof' for having the same meaning for logos in verse 14. Without John 1:1-3 then this peculiar meaning would never exist in verse 14, and so for the reverse, the same for John 1:1-3.
2) JESUS CHRIST Is EMMANUEL
“interpreted = God With us!" (Matthew 1 : 21-23)
This response is a little longer as I had it mostly already intact in my notes.
Verse 21: You shall call him Yahshua, (Joshua), because God our Father shall save his people once more. Immanuel indeed. God is working his purpose and plans for those that love him through his Son who shall have his (some) thoughts and voice.
This verse 23 thus is a dual prophecy (before - Matt 1:22 and then in Matt 1:23)
This scripture was completely fulfilled (God is with us) through Mary (Mariam) who was really young and an unmarried woman, and Joseph who was not yet married to Mary. Both were descendants from the House of Judah.
Note that the Hebrew word ‘alma’ does not necessarily mean a virgin, although it was a strict law and custom to be a virgin before marriage.
She birthed a son and YHWH conceived him and his spirit was in him. Jesus (Yahshua), named by YHWH, to carry his name, that He saves his people. And Yahshua was with Mary and Joseph as their son, indeed.
Jesus became the special man and true representation of his Father in spirit and mind, Immanuel indeed. God was with Jesus. See Isaiah 7:14 for the initial promise of YHWH to Isaiah and his wife and the tribe of Judah.
Verse 23: Immanuel does not mean Jesus the Son of God, is actually God, as Trinitarians and Oneness people believe. Why would they believe in 2 Gods?! God is with his Son, and his people, executing his plans and carrying his voice and thoughts. Yahshua carries out the will of his Father. All true believers will eventually be living with God, as Jesus was from his birth. See Rev 21:3.
In Proverbs 30:1. A women named her son Ithiel, ‘God is with me’ as translated from Hebrew.
The idea of Immanuel also embeds the meaning of being “among.” God is now among humanity through those in/as the body of Christ.
Trinitarians believe that somehow this scripture means that God ‘came down from heaven’ and placed him own spirit inside the egg of Mary. And therefore, Jesus is God and therefore God is with us, Immanuel. How can someone believe God was born, let alone was dead and also tempted.
They really cannot explain how the Spirit of God became its own human being and not a new human creation as the 2nd Adam. In fact, they do not speak of the 2nd Adam at all in this discussion. That Jesus is God is a mystery to them and so they borrowed a pagan concept, of incarnation to explain it. They added this pagan concept in their understanding of this scripture and many others. It stays a mystery and an incomprehensible concept.
Why did not Matthew or Luke present scripture concerning God ‘coming down from heaven’ into the womb of Mary?
In Isaiah 7:14-16, it says of the boy and later Jesus the man, learned to choose good over evil when he was humbled by eating basic food for survival. His Father made him suffer in humility and by physical hardship for him to ‘know’ goodness. This does not sound like that this human was actually God that ate curds and honey to know what is good! Christ has to have 'God with him.'
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@GRACE ambassador ...I will now deliver by last quick commentaries on more of your extensive list....it is incomplete
3) The SON, JESUS CHRIST Is Called
God, By HIS Own Father! (Hebrews 1 : 8)
I believe tigger2 did a really great commentary on this scripture.
The short version of it is this: the standard translation is off by a mile. It should say that Christ's Father is his throne forever; not that Christ himself has another throne for himself, or is his own throne.
4) JESUS CHRIST Is Called
The Great God And Saviour! (Titus 2 : 13)
We look forward to the great glory of God our Father, and of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
There are two glories and two saviors, for different reasons.
The KJV of this verse is a deliberate alteration of the earliest versions, to try and make it appear that Jesus is God.
‘Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;’ (KJV)
The translation in this verse should not read ‘glorious appearing of the great God’ it should say ‘the great glory of our God’ or even the translation, ‘the glory of our great God.’
The KJV and Trinitarians worked this translation to sound as if our Lord and Savior is God. That God is going to appear as Jesus Christ.
The word ‘glory’ is a noun and clearly not an adjective as the Trinitarians made it into, as in ‘glorious.’ This is intellectual dishonesty.
We are looking for the “glory” of God, which is stated clearly as being (in) “ Jesus Christ.”
The raw Greek to English translation should be:
προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου
awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Jesus Christ.
The great glory of God, our Father, is seen through the glorious appearance of Jesus Christ, his Son!
Luke 9:26 is a version of what Titus 2:13 says:
Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Here’s another version of Titus 2:13 in Matt 16:27 -
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Another reason for the confusion that arises in this verse it that many are ignorant that both the Father and the Son are both called Saviors for different reasons. Knowing where and why they are used is the key to unraveling this unnecessary controversy.
Here is scripture for the Father called Savior.
Isaiah 43:11 - I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
The Father of Christ is also the Savior because he conceived and is behind the plan for our salvation, through his Son. We have our hope in the Christ. He is the agent of his Father to bring us salvation.
Another verse: I Tim 1:1 - Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
Notice that God as Savior is separated for his Son here.
And in Titus 1:3 - and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,
And in Jude 25 - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen
3) The SON, JESUS CHRIST Is Called
God, By HIS Own Father! (Hebrews 1 : 8)
I believe tigger2 did a really great commentary on this scripture.
The short version of it is this: the standard translation is off by a mile. It should say that Christ's Father is his throne forever; not that Christ himself has another throne for himself, or is his own throne.
4) JESUS CHRIST Is Called
The Great God And Saviour! (Titus 2 : 13)
We look forward to the great glory of God our Father, and of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
There are two glories and two saviors, for different reasons.
The KJV of this verse is a deliberate alteration of the earliest versions, to try and make it appear that Jesus is God.
‘Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;’ (KJV)
The translation in this verse should not read ‘glorious appearing of the great God’ it should say ‘the great glory of our God’ or even the translation, ‘the glory of our great God.’
The KJV and Trinitarians worked this translation to sound as if our Lord and Savior is God. That God is going to appear as Jesus Christ.
The word ‘glory’ is a noun and clearly not an adjective as the Trinitarians made it into, as in ‘glorious.’ This is intellectual dishonesty.
We are looking for the “glory” of God, which is stated clearly as being (in) “ Jesus Christ.”
The raw Greek to English translation should be:
προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου
awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Jesus Christ.
The great glory of God, our Father, is seen through the glorious appearance of Jesus Christ, his Son!
Luke 9:26 is a version of what Titus 2:13 says:
Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Here’s another version of Titus 2:13 in Matt 16:27 -
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Another reason for the confusion that arises in this verse it that many are ignorant that both the Father and the Son are both called Saviors for different reasons. Knowing where and why they are used is the key to unraveling this unnecessary controversy.
Here is scripture for the Father called Savior.
Isaiah 43:11 - I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
The Father of Christ is also the Savior because he conceived and is behind the plan for our salvation, through his Son. We have our hope in the Christ. He is the agent of his Father to bring us salvation.
Another verse: I Tim 1:1 - Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
Notice that God as Savior is separated for his Son here.
And in Titus 1:3 - and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,
And in Jude 25 - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen
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