Understanding the Trinity.

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tigger 2

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It is sad to see others struggle with the meaning of scripture, in denial and resistant of the truth. They take simple words and phrases, and search the archives for something to support their view and present it as a sophomoric paper, feeling justified they have discovered it. Yet truth is apparently hidden from them. The Holy Spirit is not there to help them discern the words, because to them, He doesn't exist and He wasn't invited.
Do you know what the Parable of the ten virgins means? Five didn't have oil in their lamps. Do you know what that oil represents?
...................................................
Why do you insist that it is I who is struggling with the meaning of Heb. 1:8. I have provided an impressive number of trinitarian scholars to give you a probable non-trinitarian rendering of Heb. 1:8/ Ps. 45:6. How is it my fault they disagree with you? Here's some more:

There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6 - see my previous post) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

If we look at some more trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering by some.

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God- p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

Another acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay.

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

Famed trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” orGod is thy throne” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - p. 339.

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the famous trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”
 
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Pierac

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Wow you know how to find every other possible meaning but the correct one.
You lean on your own understanding. It is as if I am reading something from the Jesus Seminar.
Well, you can choose to be a non-trinitarian of which may only amount to 2 -3 % of 2.65 billion Christians. If 97% of the population told me I was wrong about anything important, I would at least suspect that I might be wrong.
If you have not been baptized by the Holy Spirit, Whom you do not believe is God, then you are not a born again believer. Do you realize that? You must ask for the Spirit, but the conundrum is that if you do not think He is a person, and maybe just a force, wouldn't that be an insult to Him? What if someone refered to you as that thing or it? Would that be disrespectful?
And how can you worship Jesus if you do not believe He is God? You degrade Him as something less than He is, which is a dishonor. Will you bow your knee to Him?
All scripture is spiritually discerned. Doesn't seem like you have discernment. God needs to live in you to have this understanding.

I once believed like you about 10years ago... Then the one true God opened my eyes...

It was so nice of you to point out all the errors in my post about Elohim.... All that leaning on my own understanding that I did...
Wait, You didn't you just posted the stuff above.

I understand that everyone is not as spiritually mature as others. Some are still in the Milk of the Word, totally lacking in Spiritual Meat..
So put away the milk and show me the errors in my Elohim post... You know the Word that you think proves God is More than one.
 

Wrangler

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Yet... Jesus has a GOD!

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

You cannot be God...and then claim to have one!!! But you can claim to be His Agent!!! Just like the scriptures teach...

It is a profound point that obliterates the trinity; Jesus has a God!

It is not merely that Jesus has a Father, who is merely 1 of a multi-piece set of persons making of a being. Jesus has a God, in his unitarian nature.

I waited to see if the trinitarians would even touch this. Predictably, they did not.

Elohim
Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people like you. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent.

Many words - elohim, person, being, dead, Father, mediator, One, Three - are deliberately 'confusing' to trinitarians. They have to be. Plain language usage, definitions and logic undermine them at every turn.
 
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Wrangler

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That is the Son of God speaking. He is our Mediator, the Word, expression of God to man.

Yes, Jesus is our mediator to God. Scripture explicitly says Jesus is a man in the verse to compare and contrast to the God and people he mediates for. Simple definition, one cannot mediate for oneself. Jesus cannot be God or he would violate the criteria for this irreplaceable position.

Who mediates for us and our God? The non-God Jesus. Simple. The trinitarian rationalization is to deny definitions mean what they mean, an appeal to duality; Jesus is in the camp who needs a mediator and also in the mediator camp, etc.
 

amadeus

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Wow you know how to find every other possible meaning but the correct one.
You lean on your own understanding. It is as if I am reading something from the Jesus Seminar.
Well, you can choose to be a non-trinitarian of which may only amount to 2 -3 % of 2.65 billion Christians. If 97% of the population told me I was wrong about anything important, I would at least suspect that I might be wrong...
Should we vote then in order to determine who has God's Truth? If we excluded from the voting all of those who are definitely unbelievers, then make our final decisions in accord with the majority, would we not all be Catholics anew or again?

Is that not absolutely opposed to what Jesus was doing when so many were leaving him? Was he not ready to walk on alone among men if the twelve also decided to walk away?

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67

Would it not be better to walk all alone and be on God's side than to go with the crowd away from Jesus?
 

Wrangler

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Well, you can choose to be a non-trinitarian of which may only amount to 2 -3 % of 2.65 billion Christians. If 97% of the population told me I was wrong about anything important, I would at least suspect that I might be wrong.

Naked Appeal to Majority fallacy of argumentation. Still a popular appeal despite the majority being wrong throughout human history.

When Jesus began his ministry, there were no Christians. A population with no Christians makes Christianity wrong? The Muslims are angling toward that direction.

Only 2 of 8 B people are Christians. 75% of the world are not Christians. Does that make Christianity wrong?
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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...................................................
Why do you insist that it is I who is struggling with the meaning of Heb. 1:8. I have provided an impressive number of trinitarian scholars to give you a probable non-trinitarian rendering of Heb. 1:8/ Ps. 45:6. How is it my fault they disagree with you? Here's some more:

There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6 - see my previous post) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

If we look at some more trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering by some.

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God- p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

Another acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay.

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

Famed trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” orGod is thy throne” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - p. 339.

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the famous trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”
If the Trinity rested on one or a few scriptures, your dounts may he justified.
Every person needs to be certain of his own faith, how he received it, from Whom and to rest in that peace and security given.
May God be merciful on us all for our errors.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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I once believed like you about 10years ago... Then the one true God opened my eyes...

It was so nice of you to point out all the errors in my post about Elohim.... All that leaning on my own understanding that I did...
Wait, You didn't you just posted the stuff above.

I understand that everyone is not as spiritually mature as others. Some are still in the Milk of the Word, totally lacking in Spiritual Meat..
So put away the milk and show me the errors in my Elohim post... You know the Word that you think proves God is More than one.
No, I am afraid we met our fork in the road, I'll just tip my hat to you and be on my way. May God bless you on your journey.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Yes, Jesus is our mediator to God. Scripture explicitly says Jesus is a man in the verse to compare and contrast to the God and people he mediates for. Simple definition, one cannot mediate for oneself. Jesus cannot be God or he would violate the criteria for this irreplaceable position.

Who mediates for us and our God? The non-God Jesus. Simple. The trinitarian rationalization is to deny definitions mean what they mean, an appeal to duality; Jesus is in the camp who needs a mediator and also in the mediator camp, etc.
Fyi, only God can take away the sins if the world. That requires an All Mighty God, omniscient, omnipresent amd omnipotent.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Should we vote then in order to determine who has God's Truth? If we excluded from the voting all of those who are definitely unbelievers, then make our final decisions in accord with the majority, would we not all be Catholics anew or again?

Is that not absolutely opposed to what Jesus was doing when so many were leaving him? Was he not ready to walk on alone among men if the twelve also decided to walk away?

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67

Would it not be better to walk all alone and be on God's side than to go with the crowd away from Jesus?
Yes, I just motioned to do just that in #109.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Naked Appeal to Majority fallacy of argumentation. Still a popular appeal despite the majority being wrong throughout human history.

When Jesus began his ministry, there were no Christians. A population with no Christians makes Christianity wrong? The Muslims are angling toward that direction.

Only 2 of 8 B people are Christians. 75% of the world are not Christians. Does that make Christianity wrong?
Actually there is about 1/3, 2.65 Billion
If we include everyone else, that makes your numbers even more miniscule.
 

Aunty Jane

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I'll tell what inspired me to write a book. I was invited to A Jehovah Witness Convention years ago by a dear family member. Thought I would just please her and see what they had to say. I had a notepad with me. They started the teaching about the Holy Spirit and wow, I was filled with the Spirit and could not stop writing about the abject numerous errors as if they were blind leading the blind. It was at Long Beach Convention around 2008 - with 7,000 JW's.
Oh, so you assume that it was holy spirit that motivated you to write your diatribe? There is more than one kind of deceptive spirit that can lead a person to certain conclusions, you know.
Look at those who orchestrated the murder of the Christ....didn't they assume that they had God's spirit? Didn't they claim that Abraham was their father? Who did Jesus say their father was? (John 8:44)

I can read your words here and apply them to all of Christendom...."the blind leading the blind"....actions speak louder than words.

They know about love and sin - no doubt and are very warm people.
As you would expect God's people to be. (John 13:34-135) They will not take up arms and fight their own brothers over political issues....in fact they will not take up weapons to fight anyone, as you would expect a disciple of Christ to do. (Matthew 5:43-44) How can you love your enemy with a gun, a tank or a bomb? (2 Corinthians 10:3-5)
Being "no part of the world" means what Jesus said. (Matthew 18:36)

But about the nature of God, they have been brain washed and deceived.
We could say exactly the same about you.....we will allow the appointed judge to make that clear to everyone....we will all know soon enough I think....imagining oneself to be a "Christian" doesn't mean that Jesus will count you as one. (Matthew 7:21-23)

The Holy Spirit is not a force as I summarized in a previou post. A force cannot think, love or guide. A force is not a person. There is the huge error.
The huge error is the trinity...but you are free to believe it if you wish. (John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

And then the idea that Jesus is Michael is very disturbing. Michael is mentioned 5 x in scripture and the whole Bible is about Jesus. We read thousands of passages identifying Jesus in the New Testament as our Lord and Savior, the truth, the way, the life, the Light of men, the Messiah, the Christ, etc., etc. And then all of a sudden a reference to Michael appears in Revelation 12 and they believe this is Jesus? To believe this, you are not only blind but illogical. Yes this is sad ... and the other Non-Trinitarians are in the same boat too.
Judgment again?.....be careful..."as you judge so will you be judged".

Jesus has many roles each with a new name. Yahweh has one name and one role.....he is the Sovereign of the Universe and no one is his equal. No one can occupy the Father's place without breaching the First Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

Michael is not only mentioned in Revelation....but also by Daniel. (Daniel 12:1) He has featured prominently in those references, identified as "the great Prince", standing up for the sons of Daniel's people....like Isaiah identified the Christ.....as "Prince of Peace". A Prince is the son of a King.

Because we do not believe that Jesus is God or ever was, the only two who personages who are said to have command of the angelic forces, are Michael and Jesus. Since it is only a belief based on inference, we do not consider it a doctrine, unlike the trinity which is only believed on inference by millions of people, but yet it is the very foundational doctrine of Christendom's whole religious system. What happens when you build on a shaky foundation?
The storm is coming....

We will let Jesus do the judging and continue to promote the truth of God's word.....the sheep will hear the voice of the Fine Shepherd....we can count on that.

You can jump up and down all you like....makes no difference to us....or to God for that matter...no one can come to the son without an invitation from the Father.....(John 6:65)
 

Aunty Jane

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Fyi, only God can take away the sins if the world. That requires an All Mighty God, omniscient, omnipresent amd omnipotent.
Yes, and he sent his son to do that....you know, the one Jesus called "the only true God" without including himself (John 17:3).....God never came in person because for one, no human would survive the experience and for two, an immortal being cannot die. Mere humans cannot kill God.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit ... in whom we are to be baptized in the name of.
Where does it say these three are all "God"?
 

amadeus

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Should we vote then in order to determine who has God's Truth? If we excluded from the voting all of those who are definitely unbelievers, then make our final decisions in accord with the majority, would we not all be Catholics anew or again?

Is that not absolutely opposed to what Jesus was doing when so many were leaving him? Was he not ready to walk on alone among men if the twelve also decided to walk away?

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67

Would it not be better to walk all alone and be on God's side than to go with the crowd away from Jesus?

Yes, I just motioned to do just that in #109.
If left to men in too many places designated by men as churches probably your motion would carry, and the vote might even go your way because God does at times allow people to get what they ask for... even if it is a rejection of Him and the best interests of the people themselves:

"And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them." I Sam 8:7

God has never encouraged or established democracies according to the written scriptures.

For men democracy might even be a good thing
if the interests of the weak and poor minorities were really protected under law. We see the erosion of those rights in the USA today... which with unbelievers is, I guess to be expected... but with God's people?

God foresaw this kind of problem in the both the OT and the NT, but even in the churches which supposedly are His, it is not the Holy Spirit leading too much of the time. It is men leading the way themselves... seeking to suppress God Himself although they would deny it.

Does God need men's help to accomplish His purposes? Do we need to help God lead people to the Truth? We are the one who need His help. Winning this debate according to men will not put you or me on God's side!

People may say it is God's will because the majority says so... but...! What does God say? Let God speak for Himself! How many places is that happening? In what church groups? In what forums? In this forum?

Seems to me that there is a whole lot of Spirit quenching in the places people meet and call "churches" these days. Just follow the preacher/minister/priest and the local assembly rules and you will be...what? Never deceived? Hmmm?

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

If our leaders are not following Christ, what should we expect?

Well let us quench the Holy Spirit and keep silent as our blind leaders are directing us even when we really are being pressed by God to speak. What does it mean to quench the Spirit?

We do not cast lots these days as they did in the OT to find the will of God, but in too many places and at too times it would probably have a better result if we did. Without the Urim and Thummin, or the Holy Spirit directing us, are we in a better place than those children of Israel following their man-made idols instead of God?

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" Jerem. 10:23
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Look at those who orchestrated the murder of the Christ....didn't they assume that they had God's spirit?
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit planned this event before the foundation the world. God orchestrated the death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus laid down His life willingly, the Pharisees were set up, Judas even Satan. It was prophesied. So you again do not have the correct perspective.
You are claiming that I ha e the Satan's spirit, who I suppose is inspiring me to honor and recognize the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Isn't that a similar charge what the Pharisee's implied about Jesus, that He was doing miracles by the power of Satan. And Jesus said rhey were blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
I can read your words here and apply them to all of Christendom...."the blind leading the blind"....actions speak louder than words.
Maybe I was unfair by that comment. You do see something, because you read His words, just as the Jews study and practice the Old Testament. But they do not discern the deep spiritual richness of the word as most of us who have been baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
They will not take up arms and fight their own brothers over political issues....in fact they will not take up weapons to fight anyone, as you would expect a disciple of Christ to do.
Yes you are passivists. Well I hope you appreciate that the freedoms in the USA ( that slowly being removed) were fought for in battles. As God sent the Israelites into the Promise land and told them to kill everyone and take it. Peace is good, but evil must be put down and so police, soldiers stand to thwart evil and if they have to, kill.
JW's clould never have their own country because you are not willing to fight and hence would be slaves to anyone who came along. I suppose if someone forced their way into your house to rape, pillage and plunder your family, your husband would just stand there defenseless and let it happen?

We could say exactly the same about you.....we will allow the appointed judge to make that clear to everyone....we will all know soon enough I think....imagining oneself to be a "Christian" doesn't mean that Jesus will count you as one. (Matthew 7:21-23)
The Holy Spirit dwells in me and confirms with my spirit our relationship. I am sealed by the Holy Spirit. JW's don't believe that they are saved, they are uncertain. You think you have to earn salvation by good works, and maybe after the Millenial Kingdom, you'll find out. This is also sad that you do not have the faith that all Christians should have. The faith that is a gift. Look it up, Hebrews 11:1 It is a sureness, a knowing of our salvation. It is a done deal.
You have been lied to and deprived of many aspects if the Christian life and truth.
You think Jesus is Michael - that is a disgrace and dishonor.
You think the Holy Spirit is a force - you are blind Him, who is God. And because if this you lack a relationship with Him, hence a lack of spiritual discernment.
You pass the bread and don't eat it, you pass the wine and don't drink it as if that is symbolic for communion with Christ. Oh, some of you do - only the ones who think they are going to heaven. He said, take and eat, this is My body ... take and drink, this is my blood ... Everyone, every time you gather in my name.
You think heaven only has enough room for 144k JW's - that an fallacy. Sad!
You think because birthdays are not in the Bible that we are deprived of observing. Actually in Job 1, a birthday is celebrated. Tennis isn't in the Bible. Cars, phones and million other things aren't in there. We don't celebrate to glorify ourselves, we thank God for the person who was born on that day. It is a special day. God gave us life and we celebrate it any which way. Of course are carnally minded person does not celebrate with thanks to God and they can be self indulgent and sinful as well - this is not the kindnof celebration I am talking about. There are many Jewish feasts that actually were celebrations of historical events blessed by God. And in each celebration, thanks is given to God. JW's are deprived of celebrating anything accept a wedding or anniversary. There is nothing in the Bible that prohibits family gatherings, good food, dancing singing and joyful times for any reason as long as it has love and a thankful attitude towards God.


The huge error is the trinity...but you are free to believe it if you wish. (John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6
The proof is in the pudding they say. After over 100 years, the JW org only has just under 9 million believers. You have growth like a lawn that is suffering from a drought. You knock on doors for 200 million hours a year just in the US and where is the fruit of your labor??? Any cinverts trickling in? And I would say most of your congregation was generated by family. You bring you kids and endoctrinate them and so on.
In 1900, there were 500 milliom Christians (Catholics, Protestants, Non-Denominaltional, all believers of Christ )..Now there are 2.65 billion believers -- that's growth. And why is that so? The Holy Spirit blesses those church movements that are in line with His will. Example: Chuck Smith started Calvary Chapel about 50 years ago and it has grown to over 2000 churches with 25 million believers. Spirit-filled churches grow. Those with false doctrine do not!

We will let Jesus do the judging and continue to promote the truth of God's word.....the sheep will hear the voice of the Fine Shepherd....we can count on that.
Yes, I have seen the growth in the Body of Christ, though some churches remain stagnant.

You can jump up and down all you like....makes no difference to us....or to God for that matter...no one can come to the son without an invitation from the Father.....(John 6:65)
I am excited, jumping for joy, my redemption draws near. It is sad for you to have to wait with uncertainty for that time.
I have many JW's in my family and I love them, but we don't see eye to eye with much of the Bible. Actually I could find more in common with a Catholic and be in agreement about the essentials than a JW. Oh well, we do live in peace, just refrain from talking about the things that are most important to us - sad.
 
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