Understanding the Trinity.

[GRACE ambassador]

Oh, ok, No Triune GodHead, denying over 150 Passages Of Scriptures, and,
Jesus Christ, Not being God, but, just a man, CANNOT forgive my sins! Got it.

Time to go = Romans_16:17 = So long...

 

[APAK]

Oh, ok, No Triune GodHead, denying over 150 Passages Of Scriptures, and,
Jesus Christ, Not being God, but, just a man, CANNOT forgive my sins! Got it.

Time to go = Romans_16:17 = So long...

He was not just a man! You have a problem with Yahshua being a man, anointed and given authority to forgive sin for all, as only a man born of God with his spirit dwelling with and in him from birth? Is this the definition of a man anywhere, yesterday and today, born with the Spirit of God? There was and never has been a man like him. He is the 2nd Adam, who continued not to succumb to sin. This just a man as you say, is the only qualified just a man, as the only substitute and sacrificial lamb for these sins of ours. Who told you Yahshua had to be more that a man, of God?

You speak of division. You are the bearer of division by overriding the word of God with your own thoughts of another Christ, not of God.

You have yet to show an ounce or shred of evidence on anything you have said. Beside listing scripture as your evidence. Do I lie?!

 

[Wrangler]

just a man, CANNOT forgive my sins!

The Apostles were men who forgave sins. Doesn't make them God.

 

[Pierac]

Oh, ok, No Triune GodHead, denying over 150 Passages Of Scriptures, and,
Jesus Christ, Not being God, but, just a man, CANNOT forgive my sins! Got it.

Time to go = Romans_16:17 = So long...

Let's see who can forgive sins.

Mat 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

Mar 2:7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them,"Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Jesus never forgave sins before He was anointed with God's Spirit. And now the Apostles have the ability to forgive sins, once again only after Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit. The Apostles are now Agents of Jesus the Christ and "have authority on earth to forgive sins". How? Because as the Father has sent Me, I also send you

Spirit or Flesh?

Many prophecies indicated that the Coming One would arise from the "seed," the stock of humanity, in a particular from Abrahamic and Davidic stock. The Messiah would be from the biological chain within the human family, specifically of Jewish pedigree: "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15). In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16). The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy. For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly not God but a human being. The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.

In addition, Jehovah God says clearly that he is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32). The converse is therefore true: if a person is a man, then he can not be God.

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on us as we sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

INCARNA'TION, n. The act of clothing with flesh.

1. The act of assuming flesh, or of taking a human body and the nature of man; as the incarnation of the Son of God.

Can God take on the nature of man? What did Paul say?
Romans 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

However, we know that Jesus was begotten. Yet, not eternally begotten! Which is un-scriptural!

BEGOT', BEGOT'TEN, pp. of get. Procreated; generated.

Now let's look at John 1:10 regarding, the world was made through Him (Jesus).

Joh 1:10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through(dia) Him, and the world knew Him not." 11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not."

To be a Christian means you know that our Lord Jesus is the diameter, the purpose of the universe. His kingdom is coming! This is God's purpose and it will not be frustrated.

Another verse saying the same thing is Hebrews 1:2. It says God has “appointed” His son to be the “heir of all things” and that it was “through him that he made the world'(s). Here our translations are not quite accurate, what the author wrote was not that through Jesus God made the world(s) but ages. God planned to complete His purpose for all creation through the agency of his son Jesus. The preposition that is used in relation to Jesus and the world, or the ages, is “through” (Greek dia from which you will see comes our English word diameter).

Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But
usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one
or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

 

[Wrangler]

Let's see who can forgive sins.

As God delegated this power to Christ, he delegated this power to the Apostles. Doesn’t make them God.

 

[Pierac]

As God delegated this power to Christ, he delegated this power to the Apostles. Doesn’t make them God.

Glad you got my point!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The Trinity

The concept of a Triune God is the only God that makes sense. Before creation, God, being love and excellent in every way requires a consent and a relationship of more than one person.

God is Love, but Love is not static, it requires expression and movement outside of the person who possesses it. The whole concept of love is that it requires a relationship to express that love in. We can love ourselves, but it is selfish and if no one else was around to love, it would be quite lonely. Who would God, if He was alone, communicate with or love?

From: [Volume 39 - Issue 2 / A Critical Examination of Jonathan Edwards’s Doctrine of the Trinity BY RALPH CUNNINGTON]

“This is an [sic] universal definition of excellency: The consent of being to being, or being’s consent to entity. The more the consent is, and the more extensive, the greater is the excellency. . . . One alone, without any reference to any more, cannot be excellent; for in such case there can be no manner of relation no way, and therefore, no such thing as consent. Indeed, what we call “one” may be excellent, because of a consent of parts, or some consent of those in that being that are distinguished into a plurality some way or other. But in a being that is absolutely without any plurality there cannot be excellency, for there can be no such thing as consent or agreement.” Jonathan Edwards

Edwards applied this understanding to his conception of God, concluding, “if God is excellent, there must be plurality in God; otherwise there can be no consent in him.” Since God is excellent it follows that there must be plurality within his unity.

For Edwards, God the Father is “the Deity subsisting in the prime, unoriginated and most absolute manner.” He is the “fountain of the Godhead,” and thus Scripture rightly refers to God as “without any addition or distinction.” But since the Father is infinitely happy in himself, it follows that he “perpetually and eternally has a most perfect idea of himself, as it were an exact image and representation of himself ever before him and in actual view. This perfect idea is exactly like him in every respect and therefore “is God to all intents and purposes.” Indeed “by God’s thinking of the Deity, [the Deity] must certainly be generated.” The second person of the Godhead is the Son. Edwards was convinced that this view was in agreement with Scripture, and he cited 2 Cor 4:4, Phil 2:6, Col 1:15, and Heb 1:3 in support. Since God is a perfect spirit, his idea of himself is himself.

“If God has an idea of himself, there is really a duplicity; because [if] there is no duplicity, it will follow that Jehovah thinks of himself no more than a stone.” In sum, the Son is “God’s perfect idea of God.” He is the Word of God and the wisdom of God since knowledge, reason, and wisdom are the same as God’s perfect idea of himself.

In other words, the Trinity consists of God, his understanding (or idea) and his love.”
The Holy Spirit then would be the person, who expresses love, knowledge and wisdom that flows out of the Father and the Son to all and everywhere.
------------

A First Century Bishop of Symrna, Polycarp’s prayer to the FATHER: “For this and for all else besides, I praise thee, I bless thee, I glorify thee through our eternal High Priest in Heaven, thy beloved Son Jesus Christ, by whom and with whom be glory to thee and the Holy Spirit now and for all ages to come, Amen.”


THE FATHER SENDS THE SON, the WORD of TRUTH, AND THEN THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE SPIRIT OF SANCTIFICATION. It all began before the foundation of the world with the Father who chooses those to be saved according to the "counsel" of His will. Our minds our enlightened by the Holy Spirit to behold the Son, Who is the exact illumination of the Father. Hence, the gift of life comes to us by the Triune God.

2nd Century Theologian, Irrenaeus said, “ Here is according to the presbyters, the disciples of the Apostles. The graduation and arrangement of those who are saved and the steps by which they advance: they ascend through the Spirit to the Son and through the Son to the Father.”

With the revelation of the GOSPEL came the Trinity.
“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began. “ Rom. 16:25
“which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:” Eph. 3:5 OT saints didn’t need to know it prior to Christ’s coming.

“I and My Father are one.” John 10:30 One in unity purpose and essence of being.

“The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” John 10:33 The Jews understand Jesus claimed to be God, which is what motivated them to crucify him for what they thought was blasphemy.

Jesus said He must leave and ascend, so that the Spirit can come, whom the Father would send.
“And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever” John 14:16

Here we see the Father is ONE with the Holy Spirit:
“Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?” 1 Cor. 3:16

Here we see that Jesus' Spirit is ONE with the Holy Spirit:
“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” Rom. 8:9

So we have company, God, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit dwelling in us.
“Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:23

By INVOKING the name of the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit in baptism, signifies the Triune God. “In the name of” does not mean “by the mandate of” but rather “by the action of” the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 48:16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”

It is crucial to identify Jesus as God. It would difficult to claim an understanding of the Book of John without knowing this, or understanding Jesus really.

It is also important to understand that the Holy Spirit is God and distinct from the Father and Jesus. He, “ekeinos”, a person, not a force of God, that would be a thing. Jesus said, the Father will send you “another” Helper, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth.
A summary of what He does is as follows:
The Holy Spirit teaches, guides, counsels, leads, gives truth, hears, speaks, is all powerful (omnipotent), searches all truth which means He has all knowledge (omniscience), is omnipresent since billions are comforted by Him, bears witness to Christ and glorifies Him, is wise, gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, loves us, fellowships with us, sanctifies us, justifies us, convicts us of sin and edifies us. This list, verified in the Bible, is not complete, but identifies the Holy Spirit as God and a person. A force is not capable of this. A force has no mind, will or emotions, which characterize a soul/spirit.

 

[theefaith]

Good points

love is a verb!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

In addition, Jehovah God says clearly that he is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32). The converse is therefore true: if a person is a man, then he can not be God.

Jesus is the God/Man. God emptied Himself into a human. He relinquished His glory, temporarily. It is understandable that you cannot grasp this concept. Jesus knew that man would have a difficult time doing so:
"who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited, (or grasped)
7 but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,"
Phil. 2:6-7

Don't worry, He will explain it to you at a later, since you are in a fixed position.

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together!

No, again you are confounded by this concept. Spirit and flesh are joined, then separated. When we die, our spirit separates from our flesh. The soul/spirit of a person is the invisible being that occupies the physical body, controls it and so there is no intermingling involved, one is physical and one is not.

The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around.

It appears that you have corrupted something in your own mind and others. Read the scripture above, "God emptied himself, taking the form of a servant and was born in the human likeness, and being found in human form." (though He was also in the form of God).

Can God take on the nature of man? What did Paul say?
Romans 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

This is what corruptible man does. God was not doing something corrupt when He became a human. This verse describes men who worship beasts and made images to them. It is not applicable to Jesus. I showed you Phil. 2:6,7 - that is what Paul said about the matter at hand.

Joh 1:10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through(dia) Him, and the world knew Him not." 11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not."

Very true.
"for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Col. 1:16, 17 This is stating that the Son of God is the Creator! It does not say that the Father did not Create, nor does it say that the Holy Spirit did not Create , since He and the Father are ONE and He and the Holy Spirit are ONE and the Father and the Holy Spirit are ONE, "In the Beginning, Elohim created the heavens and the earth". Elohim is a plural form. As is God in Gen. 1:26 as well where it says, "Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness;"
God is not speaking about Himself and His angels. No, the Triune God is speaking, the counsel of God.

Another verse saying the same thing is Hebrews 1:2. It says God has “appointed” His son to be the “heir of all things” and that it was “through him that he made the world'(s). Here our translations are not quite accurate, what the author wrote was not that through Jesus God made the world(s) but ages.

No, Col. 1:16, 17 says Jesus created ALL THINGS, VISIBLE, INVISIBLE IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH - ALL THINGS. Ntw, He will come and be the JUDGE of all as well AND every knee will bow to Jesus ( not Michael), God the Son.

And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father.

Jesus is the WORD (LOGOS), the exact expression and radiance of God. Jesus is the fullness of Grace and Truth. You can't be the fullness of Grace and Truth unless you are God. Jesus must be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent to possess the fullness of Grace and Truth. Although He relinquished His glory while on earth, He regained it upon mission completed.
Jesus is the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Bread of Life, the Light of the World, the Door, the Good Shepherd, The Resurrection, the Vine, the Alpha and the Omega. You cannot claim those things unless you are God. Jesus became sin and to take on the sins of the world, one must be God, omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent to take on such a task. This was a monumental spiritual task that we cannot conceive. Taking on the sins of billions of believers throughout history, amounts to trillions of sins. And He knows all of them.

Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

Yep, right out of God.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God,

Right, Elohim - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation

The Bible says God is the source. The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are seen active in all scripture, distinct, yet in unity of purpose. If you deny the Son, you deny the Father. And if you distort the person of the Holy Spirit, you may be blaspheming the Holy Spirit and that is an unforgivable sin. Watch out. If you think of Christ as something less than He is, that is degrading and dishonoring to Him. If you dishonor the Son, you dishonor the Father.

 

[theefaith]

[QUOTE="APAK, post: 1164986,

The concept of a Triune God is the only God that makes sense. Before creation, God, being love and excellent in every way requires a consent and a relationship of more than one person.

God is Love, but Love is not static, it requires expression and movement outside of the person who possesses it. The whole concept of love is that it requires a relationship to express that love in. We can love ourselves, but it is selfish and if no one else was around to love, it would be quite lonely. Who would God, if He was alone, communicate with or love?

 

[Pierac]

Jesus is the God/Man. God emptied Himself into a human. He relinquished His glory, temporarily. It is understandable that you cannot grasp this concept. Jesus knew that man would have a difficult time doing so:
"who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited, (or grasped)
7 but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,"
Phil. 2:6-7

Don't worry, He will explain it to you at a later, since you are in a fixed position.



No, again you are confounded by this concept. Spirit and flesh are joined, then separated. When we die, our spirit separates from our flesh. The soul/spirit of a person is the invisible being that occupies the physical body, controls it and so there is no intermingling involved, one is physical and one is not.


It appears that you have corrupted something in your own mind and others. Read the scripture above, "God emptied himself, taking the form of a servant and was born in the human likeness, and being found in human form." (though He was also in the form of God).


This is what corruptible man does. God was not doing something corrupt when He became a human. This verse describes men who worship beasts and made images to them. It is not applicable to Jesus. I showed you Phil. 2:6,7 - that is what Paul said about the matter at hand.


Very true.
"for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Col. 1:16, 17 This is stating that the Son of God is the Creator! It does not say that the Father did not Create, nor does it say that the Holy Spirit did not Create , since He and the Father are ONE and He and the Holy Spirit are ONE and the Father and the Holy Spirit are ONE, "In the Beginning, Elohim created the heavens and the earth". Elohim is a plural form. As is God in Gen. 1:26 as well where it says, "Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness;"
God is not speaking about Himself and His angels. No, the Triune God is speaking, the counsel of God.


No, Col. 1:16, 17 says Jesus created ALL THINGS, VISIBLE, INVISIBLE IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH - ALL THINGS. Ntw, He will come and be the JUDGE of all as well AND every knee will bow to Jesus ( not Michael), God the Son.



Jesus is the WORD (LOGOS), the exact expression and radiance of God. Jesus is the fullness of Grace and Truth. You can't be the fullness of Grace and Truth unless you are God. Jesus must be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent to possess the fullness of Grace and Truth. Although He relinquished His glory while on earth, He regained it upon mission completed.
Jesus is the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Bread of Life, the Light of the World, the Door, the Good Shepherd, The Resurrection, the Vine, the Alpha and the Omega. You cannot claim those things unless you are God. Jesus became sin and to take on the sins of the world, one must be God, omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent to take on such a task. This was a monumental spiritual task that we cannot conceive. Taking on the sins of billions of believers throughout history, amounts to trillions of sins. And He knows all of them.



Yep, right out of God.


Right, Elohim - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


The Bible says God is the source. The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are seen active in all scripture, distinct, yet in unity of purpose. If you deny the Son, you deny the Father. And if you distort the person of the Holy Spirit, you may be blaspheming the Holy Spirit and that is an unforgivable sin. Watch out. If you think of Christ as something less than He is, that is degrading and dishonoring to Him. If you dishonor the Son, you dishonor the Father.

Yet... Jesus has a GOD!

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

You cannot be God...and then claim to have one!!! But you can claim to be His Agent!!! Just like the scriptures teach...

BELIEVE JESUS...
(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do."

Many just follow the traditions of men!
Paul

 

[Pierac]

Right, Elohim - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


The Bible says God is the source. The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are seen active in all scripture, distinct, yet in unity of purpose. If you deny the Son, you deny the Father. And if you distort the person of the Holy Spirit, you may be blaspheming the Holy Spirit and that is an unforgivable sin. Watch out. If you think of Christ as something less than He is, that is degrading and dishonoring to Him. If you dishonor the Son, you dishonor the Father.

What do you know of Elohim... but what your told... Do some research...!!!
Elohim
Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people like you. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

That is the Son of God speaking. He is our Mediator, the Word, expression of God to man. Rev. 1:8, 11 &13 confirm that the Alpha and Omega is Jesus. In vs. 18 He says "I am He who lives and I was dead and behold I am alive for evermore."
Our Lord and Savior throughout the OT is the pre-incaranate Son of God. He spoke to thw prophets. He spoke to Moses.
To the Pharisees He said, " Before Abrahm was, I Am." They knew what He meant. That was a reference to His introduction as God to Moses.
In Exodus 3:14, " And Hod said ti Moses, "I am who I am". And He said, :Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you."
This was an introduction. GOD would later fill in more details in the Book of John:
I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE;
I AM THE GOOD SHEPHERD;
I AM THE VINE;
I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE;
I AM THE DOOR;
I AM HE ...
"Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." John 8:24
This was just prior to Him saying, Before Abraham was, I am.

Yet... Jesus has a GOD

The Father has a God too! Je addresses Jesus as God.
"But to the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ...'"

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

What do you know of Elohim... but what your told... Do some research...!!!
Elohim
Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people like you. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

Wow you know how to find every other possible meaning but the correct one.
You lean on your own understanding. It is as if I am reading something from the Jesus Seminar.
Well, you can choose to be a non-trinitarian of which may only amount to 2 -3 % of 2.65 billion Christians. If 97% of the population told me I was wrong about anything important, I would at least suspect that I might be wrong.
If you have not been baptized by the Holy Spirit, Whom you do not believe is God, then you are not a born again believer. Do you realize that? You must ask for the Spirit, but the conundrum is that if you do not think He is a person, and maybe just a force, wouldn't that be an insult to Him? What if someone refered to you as that thing or it? Would that be disrespectful?
And how can you worship Jesus if you do not believe He is God? You degrade Him as something less than He is, which is a dishonor. Will you bow your knee to Him?
All scripture is spiritually discerned. Doesn't seem like you have discernment. God needs to live in you to have this understanding.

 

[tigger 2]

The Father has a God too! Je addresses Jesus as God.
"But to the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ...'"

.............................................
Heb. 1:8 translated from Ps. 45:6
Psalm 45 is celebrating an Israelite king’s marriage, and the psalmist applies the words of Ps. 45:6, 7 literally to an ancient Israelite king. In fact, the trinitarian New American Standard Bible (NASB), Reference Edition, explains in a footnote for Ps. 45:1, “Probably refers to Solomon as a type of Christ.”

So, according to this trinitarian Bible, the words of Ps. 45:6, although figuratively referring to Jesus, were literally applied to an ancient Israelite king (probably King Solomon, it says).
So if Ps. 45:6 is properly translated, “your throne, O God ...” then that ancient Israelite King (Solomon?) was also literally called “O God” (or “O god”?). In fact, the highly trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph Edition, 1970, explains in a footnote for this verse:

“The Hebrew king was called ... ‘God,’ not in the polytheistic sense common among the ancient
pagans, but as meaning ‘godlike’ or ‘taking the place of God’.”

The trinitarian Easy-to-read-Version also says in a footnote for this passage:

“God .... here the writer might be using the word ‘God’ as a title for the king.” (Cf. NIV Study Bible f.n. for Pss. 45:6 and 82:1, 6.)

If we can find a few trinitarian-translated Bibles which translate Ps. 45:6 in a trinitarian way, we really shouldn't accept it (also Heb. 1:8) as actual trinity evidence.

The RSV renders it as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides this alternate reading: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), a very trinitarian paraphrase Bible, renders it: “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever.”

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

And the NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

We also see the following statement by respected trinitarian scholars in a footnote for this passage:
“45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 f.n. in the NIV Study Bible.

In addition to the above renderings by many respected translators (most of whom are trinitarian), we have the statement by perhaps the greatest scholar of Biblical Hebrew of all time, H. F. W. Gesenius. In his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”

 

[Oceanprayers]

So recently, it seems we have a lot of just terrible doctrine about the Trinity on here. And while i understand that it can be a confusing doctrine for over thinkers, i do believe its a necessary doctrine for salvation. To help those confused with it, i thought i’d help explain it.

the WCF has this to say about the Trinity;
“ In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.”

so what does this mean?? Well, heres what john calvin had to say;
“We believe and worship the one God whom Scripture proclaims to us. We also conceive Him as He is described to us there, namely of eternal, infinite, and spiritual essence, who alone has the power to subsist in Himself and from Himself, and who bestows it on all creatures. We reject the Anthropomorphites with their corporeal God and the Manicheans with their two gods. Instead, we acknowledge, in the one essence of God, the Father together with His eternal Word and Spirit. When we use this distinction of names, we do not imagine three gods, as if the Father were something other than the Word. In addition, we do not understand these as empty epithets, by the operations of which God is described in different ways. But together with the ecclesiastical writers, in the most simple unity of God, we think that these are three persons [hypostases], that is, substances[subsistentias] that nevertheless consist of one essence [essentia] but are not mingled with each other. And so although there is one God, the Father together with His Word and Spirit, the Father is nevertheless not the Word nor is the Spirit the Word Himself. And the firm testimonies of Scripture are found to support this way of thinking.

still confused?? Lets try this;
“The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.”

“There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.”

i know this is long winded, but i hope it helps.

WCF?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

WCF?

Westminster Confessions.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

.............................................
Heb. 1:8 translated from Ps. 45:6
Psalm 45 is celebrating an Israelite king’s marriage, and the psalmist applies the words of Ps. 45:6, 7 literally to an ancient Israelite king. In fact, the trinitarian New American Standard Bible (NASB), Reference Edition, explains in a footnote for Ps. 45:1, “Probably refers to Solomon as a type of Christ.”

So, according to this trinitarian Bible, the words of Ps. 45:6, although figuratively referring to Jesus, were literally applied to an ancient Israelite king (probably King Solomon, it says).
So if Ps. 45:6 is properly translated, “your throne, O God ...” then that ancient Israelite King (Solomon?) was also literally called “O God” (or “O god”?). In fact, the highly trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph Edition, 1970, explains in a footnote for this verse:

“The Hebrew king was called ... ‘God,’ not in the polytheistic sense common among the ancient
pagans, but as meaning ‘godlike’ or ‘taking the place of God’.”

The trinitarian Easy-to-read-Version also says in a footnote for this passage:

“God .... here the writer might be using the word ‘God’ as a title for the king.” (Cf. NIV Study Bible f.n. for Pss. 45:6 and 82:1, 6.)

If we can find a few trinitarian-translated Bibles which translate Ps. 45:6 in a trinitarian way, we really shouldn't accept it (also Heb. 1:8) as actual trinity evidence.

The RSV renders it as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides this alternate reading: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), a very trinitarian paraphrase Bible, renders it: “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever.”

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

And the NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

We also see the following statement by respected trinitarian scholars in a footnote for this passage:
“45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 f.n. in the NIV Study Bible.

In addition to the above renderings by many respected translators (most of whom are trinitarian), we have the statement by perhaps the greatest scholar of Biblical Hebrew of all time, H. F. W. Gesenius. In his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”

It is sad to see others struggle with the meaning of scripture, in denial and resistant of the truth. They take simple words and phrases, and search the archives for something to support their view and present it as a sophomoric paper, feeling justified they have discovered it. Yet truth is apparently hidden from them. The Holy Spirit is not there to help them discern the words, because to them, He doesn't exist and He wasn't invited.
Do you know what the Parable of the ten virgins means? Five didn't have oil in their lamps. Do you know what that oil represents?

 

[Aunty Jane]

It is sad to see others struggle with the meaning of scripture, in denial and resistant of the truth. They take simple words and phrases, and search the archives for something to support their view and present it as a sophomoric paper, feeling justified they have discovered it. Yet truth is apparently hidden from them. The Holy Spirit is not there to help them discern the words, because to them, He doesn't exist and He wasn't invited.
Do you know what the Parable of the ten virgins means? Five didn't have oil in their lamps. Do you know what that oil represents?

You know what's sad RDB? People who don't really understand 'the meaning of scripture' who tell others that they are the ones who don't understand 'the meaning of scripture'...as if they personally were taught by the holy spirit and know better than anyone else how to read the Bible....who said?

"In denial and resistant to the truth"? Who said?

"He doesn't exist and wasn't invited"? Who said?

What a disgusting thing to say to one who probably has more years of Bible study under his belt than you do.

Are you the leader of a church? Are you a member of a church who are also taught by the holy spirit?
How many people do you have in your church, and do they all believe the same as you do? (1 Corinthians 1:10)

Its one thing to present what you believe for others to peruse and to evaluate...but another entirely to boast as if you know scripture better than anyone else. Why deride people, who are as well, or probably even better versed in the scriptures than yourself, and rubbish what they say? How do we know that what you post is not rubbish. How do you know that you are not the one who has run out of oil? Humility is not one of your strong suits is it? (James 4:6)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You know what's sad RDB? People who don't really understand 'the meaning of scripture' who tell others that they are the ones who don't understand 'the meaning of scripture'...as if they personally were taught by the holy spirit and know better than anyone else how to read the Bible....who said?

I'll tell what inspired me to write a book. I was invited to A Jehovah Witness Convention years ago by a dear family member. Thought I would just please her and see what they had to say. I had a notepad with me. They started the teaching about the Holy Spirit and wow, I was filled with the Spirit and could not stop writing about the abject numerous errors as if they were blind leading the blind. It was at Long Beach Convention around 2008 - with 7,000 JW's. They know about love and sin - no doubt and are very warm people. But about the nature of God, they have been brain washed and deceived. The Holy Spirit is not a force as I summarized in a previou post. A force cannot think, love or guide. A force is not a person. There is the huge error.
And then the idea that Jesus is Michael is very disturbing. Michael is mentioned 5 x in scripture and the whole Bible is about Jesus. We read thousands of passages identifying Jesus in the New Testament as our Lord and Savior, the truth, the way, the life, the Light of men, the Messiah, the Christ, etc., etc. And then all of a sudden a reference to Michael appears in Revelation 12 and they believe this is Jesus? To believe this, you are not only blind but illogical. Yes this is sad ... and the other Non-Trinitarians are in the same boat too.

"In denial and resistant to the truth"? Who said?

The Bible confirms that we are saved by the Triune God - quickened by the Spirit to be enlightened to Christ and sanctified and adopted by the Father as sons. We are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Btw, I attended a JW baptism too. They dunk the person in water and say absolutely nothing as if that command in scripture does not exist. This is no different than inviting guests to see you jump in a pool and get wet.
Yes, that is sad.

He doesn't exist and wasn't invited"? Who said?

The Bible identifies clearly Who The Holy Spirit is. He is God. And if you are baptized by the Holy Spirit, you will discern scripture in depth Otherwise, you can only have a superficial understanding of scripture at best.
Matthew 3:11
John 14:16-17
John 15:26
Ephesians 1:13
Galatians 5:22
Job 33:4
Romans 8:26-27
Romans 15:30
Acts 13:2
Hebrews 3:7-11
Acts 1:16
Ephesians 4:30
Philippians 2:1-2
1 Corinthians 2:13
Acts 5:3
John 16:7-15

What a disgusting thing to say to one who probably has more years of Bible study under his belt than you do.

Which one is that, the New World Translation? The only bible that Christian theologians say has been translated to conform to a belief system. It has been changed, altered. JW's used to read the American Standard Version until in the 1950's when that hack Frederick Franz attempted to translate the Holy Scriptures with only two years of Greek education and btw, in a courtroom of law, He could not translate one sentence of Hebrew. Is that the version you have studied? I would sight Rev. 22:18, 19 for all JW's.
Oh, I apologize if you are not a JW. I just used them as an example.

Are you the leader of a church? Are you a member of a church who are also taught by the holy spirit?

I am not a leader. I have been taught by spirit-filled pastors for many years. I was born again in 1991.

Why deride people, who are as well, or probably even better versed in the scriptures than yourself, and rubbish what they say?

I am rebuking, warning people of their dishonor to God.
I went to one of the most brilliant Christian minds in history and quoted him, and others since the laymen in the Christian Board forum weren't accomplishing much. Still, if the Pope or Billy Graham were to speak directly to you about the Trinity, it would have little effect, so it goes. There is an apparent wall between us.

Humility is not one of your strong suits is it? (James 4:6)

The humility I have is with God. He has given me grace. And at times I receive grace through people and give out some. Otherwise I would not receive "likes".
What is much more serious than my humility is the honor and nature of God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. I am defending their honor. If you say Jesus is Michael (as the JW's say) and/or is not God as all other Non-Trinitarians say, that is dishonoring the Son and the Father. And there may be a dishonor to the Holy Spirit if you do not recognize Him as God.