What I Like About Universalism

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Duckybill

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I can tell Universalists that they are going to Hell, but they can't say the same to me. Though some might tell me to go there : )

What do you like/dislike about Universalism. Perhaps someone would like to define Universalism for us? Does it also include Satan and his evil forces?
 

aspen

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I can tell Universalists that they are going to Hell, but they can't say the same to me. Though some might tell me to go there : )

What do you like/dislike about Universalism. Perhaps someone would like to define Universalism for us? Does it also include Satan and his evil forces?

I hope this is just a bad joke.....

I like the idea that everyone will have their hearts redeemed and spent eternity with God because it highlights God's power (ability to redeem the most warped heart), mercy, justice (redeeming everyone, despite their unwillingness to make good choices in life, partly due to having been dealt a stacked deck), and unconditional love (God practices what he preaches).

Do I believe in Universalism? Not based on scripture or the doctrine of Christianity,

Do I hope for it? Yep! I think it is the Christian thing to do.

I think the devil and his angels are part of a different age - I also think they make their choice to remain separated from God everyday, despite their better judgment. They are like all practicing addicts...they mind my say yes to God, but their heart is in love with evil.
 

Duckybill

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I hope this is just a bad joke.....
Yes indeed. You seemed desperate for a new thread : )
I like the idea that everyone will have their hearts redeemed and spent eternity with God because it highlights God's power (ability to redeem the most warped heart), mercy, justice (redeeming everyone, despite their unwillingness to make good choices in life, partly due to having been dealt a stacked deck), and unconditional love (God practices what he preaches).
God doesn't have to practice what He preaches.
Do I believe in Universalism? Not based on scripture or the doctrine of Christianity,

Do I hope for it? Yep! I think it is the Christian thing to do.
Yes I hope it's true, but I truly have no hope that it is.

Luke 13:23-24 (ESV)
[sup]23 [/sup]And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, [sup]24 [/sup]“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
I think the devil and his angels are part of a different age - I also think they make their choice to remain separated from God everyday, despite their better judgment. They are like all practicing addicts...they mind my say yes to God, but their heart is in love with evil.
I actually know little about Universalism. That's why I started this thread, to define Universalism, if it includes all evil beings.
 

aspen

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Yes indeed. You seemed desperate for a new thread : )


LOL - you got me there.....

God doesn't have to practice what He preaches.


We totally disagree on this point, but it will take us off topic to carry it further. God can only be considered good if He fits His own definition of good - and we know He is good.

Yes I hope it's true, but I truly have no hope that it is.


Luke 13:23-24 (ESV)
[sup]23 [/sup]And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, [sup]24 [/sup]“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.


I have a suspicion that it is true, but I cannot dismiss Jesus's warnings against Hell.

I actually know little about Universalism. That's why I started this thread, to define Universalism, if it includes all evil beings.



I think most Universalists reject Hell and all evil beings.
 

Duckybill

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We totally disagree on this point, but it will take us off topic to carry it further. God can only be considered good if He fits His own definition of good - and we know He is good.

I.E. the Genesis Flood, burning Sodom, Deut 28, etc.

Have you checked out the curse of THE LAW in Dt 28?
Some REALLY bad stuff for those who disobeyed God.

Deuteronomy 28:45-46 (ESV)
[sup]45 [/sup]“All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you till you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that he commanded you. [sup]46 [/sup]They shall be a sign and a wonder against you and your offspring forever.


Deuteronomy 28:61 (ESV)
[sup]61 [/sup]Every sickness also and every affliction that is not recorded in the book of this law, the Lord will bring upon you, until you are destroyed.
 

aspen

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I.E. the Genesis Flood, burning Sodom, Deut 28, etc.

Have you checked out the curse of THE LAW in Dt 28?
Some REALLY bad stuff for those who disobeyed God.

Deuteronomy 28:45-46 (ESV)
[sup]45 [/sup]“All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you till you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that he commanded you. [sup]46 [/sup]They shall be a sign and a wonder against you and your offspring forever.


Deuteronomy 28:61 (ESV)
[sup]61 [/sup]Every sickness also and every affliction that is not recorded in the book of this law, the Lord will bring upon you, until you are destroyed.

All written from the perspective of humans; nationalistic, superstitious, self-centered, desert warriors and former slaves. The world was still flat and the sun traveled around the disced-shaped Earth. These people used God to justify murder, pillaging and destruction. They gave God credit for all good and all bad things that happened. When the people ended up wandering around in the desert for what seems like forever, they concluded - 'God made us wander for 40 years in the desert because of our disobedience!' Some guy drops dead soon after touching the Ark - conclusion: 'we better not touch the ark - God is Holy!' Babylon destroys Israel and carts away the people to Nineveh: 'God is punishing us for our sins!"

God was meeting them where they were at - He was primarily concerned about re-introducing Himself to humanity - I AM. He also wanted them to obey His Law. The desired response was a humble, obedient heart from His people, but certainly He didn't expect it in their primitive state. It took Jesus (God's intervention) to provide the awesome response to God's declaration of Himself.

The people's response was primitive because they were primitive! Let the record of the OT show how far we traveled away from our created purpose!

The fact is, we are all sinners as individuals and nations - all of us, all the time! We are always guilty and always deserve God's wrath - we are no different than the Israelites, yet God allows all of our histories to play out - just like He allowed theirs to unfold. God is not in the business of retribution - if He was, we would never have been allowed to exist outside of the Garden. All He wants is to lead us back to our true nature - we were created to love.

I AM (OT), therefore, love (NT).

If we refuse His redemptive plan, we will remain separated from Him (Hell).
 

Duckybill

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Romans 11:22 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

 

aspen

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Romans 11:22 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.


Paul is right. If we refuse God's plan of redemption we will remain in our current state - cut off from God. And it will get worse, God will leave, altogether (Hell)


 

aspen

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Hell would be future for those still living.



Yep. Or 'still dead'.

This is why I think Universalism is unlikely, because in order for God to redeem a heart without consent, He would have to annihilate and re-create the person completely.....

 

aspen

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Aspen, please tell me that you don't deny eternal punishment in the fire.

Oh, I do not deny it. I just think it will be the least painful part of Hell. The hopelessness will be so much worse.
 

aspen

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Let me put it this way;

I would never wish Hell on anyone.

I pray that God will save everyone - somehow

From my human perspective, Hell as a punishment is infinitely too harsh - therefore I have to view it as a condition that cannot be treated without consent.
 

Duckybill

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Let me put it this way;

I would never wish Hell on anyone.
No true Christian would.
I pray that God will save everyone - somehow

From my human perspective, Hell as a punishment is infinitely too harsh - therefore I have to view it as a condition that cannot be avoided.
Whatever God has done or will do is righteous, including drowning everyone on Earth but 8.

 

aspen

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Whatever God has done or will do is righteous, including drowning everyone on Earth but 8.

Honestly, it is statements like this that I find frightening. And I believe the world agrees with me.......after all, it is the same reasoning that Muslim Extremists use when they blow themselves up for Allah. I am being serious, here Ducky (LOL...I've never imagined myself using that phrase), God gave us the Law in order to provide us with discernment. Why would God provide a standard (one that will never pass away) and not follow it? If God has no standards - he cannot be considered good - in fact, He cannot even know what good is.
 

Duckybill

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Honestly, it is statements like this that I find frightening. And I believe the world agrees with me.......after all, it is the same reasoning that Muslim Extremists use when they blow themselves up for Allah. I am being serious, here Ducky (LOL...I've never imagined myself using that phrase)
When you find someone who can tell God what He can and can't do let me know. I don't know of anyone.

2 Peter 2:4-6 (ESV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; [sup]5 [/sup]if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; [sup]6 [/sup]if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
, God gave us the Law in order to provide us with discernment. Why would God provide a standard (one that will never pass away) and not follow it? If God has no standards - he cannot be considered good - in fact, He cannot even know what good is.
Face the facts Aspen. This world is a sewer. God allows it to happen. He allows children to be murdered and starve. He could have prevented all of it if He chose to do so. He didn't. Don't you remember our previous discussion? It's been a while.

 

aspen

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When you find someone who can tell God what He can and can't do let me know. I don't know of anyone.

It has nothing to do with telling God what to do. Evil is not in His nature AND He is all-powerful so in order for both character traits to be true, He has to have limited His own nature. So, God is telling God what to do.


I am simply stating a fact about God's revealed nature.

2 Peter 2:4-6 (ESV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; [sup]5 [/sup]if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; [sup]6 [/sup]if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Face the facts Aspen. This world is a sewer. God allows it to happen. He allows children to be murdered and starve. He could have prevented all of it if He chose to do so. He didn't. Don't you remember our previous discussion? It's been a while.


Yes - I am aware of the facts and from my human point of view, God looks immoral. That is a fact. However, I am willing to suspend my judgment, due to my limited vision. What I am not willing to do is call murder, rape, and starvation Good, just because God allows it to happen. If God is relativistic, He is immoral and I will not have any part in His eternity. Good is meaningless when determined by relativism.


I know we have talked about this in the past, but I cannot remember the details.

 

Duckybill

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Yes - I am aware of the facts and from my human point of view, God looks immoral. That is a fact. However, I am willing to suspend my judgment, due to my limited vision. What I am not willing to do is call murder, rape, and starvation Good, just because God allows it to happen. If God is relativistic, He is immoral and I will not have any part in His eternity. Good is meaningless when determined by relativism.

Isn't that what I said? Whatever God does is righteous. The Genesis Flood is well documented in the Bible. What God did was right.

Genesis 6:11-13 (ESV)
[sup]11 [/sup]Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence. [sup]12 [/sup]And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. [sup]13 [/sup]And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
 

martinlawrencescott

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Matthew 7: 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’



That verse is terrifying. To be declared by an omniscient and all-powerful God to never have been known by that God. Part of me wonders how anyone could exist apart from the knowledge of God. In that sense I understand universalism.



Our purpose is eternal; we were not meant to be like the beasts that each reveal only one or two qualities of God's character. We each have the purpose to hold within ourselves the true nature of God in our various God-given capacities, granted by His spirit, which is a privilege no other creation can share by free will. If someone identifies with sin to the point of death which is inevitable to do unless Christ redeems us, and if that redemption is neglected, then it would seem God's last resort would be to wash that person away completely, for they not only practice but have become the very thing that is detestable to God. For there was no point of identification between God and that individual who refused Him, for to refuse Christ is to refuse God and the character that we need to be identified with for eternal life.



For only God's qualities will last forever. One quality he has taken upon himself was suffering; a quality resulting from sinful man. God suffered for us when he sent Christ to die for us. This quality glorifies himself and frees those who accept God's son Jesus. Those who don't accept God's qualifications for our redemption may have to endure this remaining quality of suffering forever in order to maintain the existence of their own souls. Suffering is the only quality that is positive for those who do good, and negative for those who do evil, and the only such quality of God that will continue to exist in sinful man, but not those in God's kingdom. Suffering which is meant to draw us to God will separate those who refuse Him for as long as suffering is declared a part of God's qualities, which thankfully for those who identify with Christ's sufferings and victory over death, will be forever. For only by eternal redemptive suffering will sinful man try to attain their own salvation, but to actually attain would to be God, which we are never meant to be and will never be.



If God saved everyone because everyone who rejects God never was, universalism could then make sense.



But for God to erase someone completely from ever existing would almost seem to be calling God a liar, and one who makes error; that the existence of even one created thing was a mistake... which is why hell seems more reliable. Unbelievers could pray that being forgotten by God and removed from Him as far as the east is from the west meant to vanish from history and from ever existing within time. I think that is what it will be like when the new heavens and new earth are created. There won't even be a stain of disobedience or displeasure from the past. God is so loving and true that he will honor whatever decision we make.



The only other way I would understand universalism is the romantic hope that everyone whom God ever gave free will to in all creation will one day come to a place of loving acceptance of God and the savior Jesus Christ. In this sense I agree and hope so as well with all my heart.





However, our lives are governed by time and science, which are governed by God. Those who reject God now and believe they have an eternity to make their choice for Him, need to consider that death itself has been marked for destruction on God's calendar, and to be identified with sin is to be identified with death which is to be marked for destruction in history as is decreed by God.



Whether someone believes in hell or not, I hope everyone can agree that even temporary separation from God is a taste of the worst possible end that no one should ever want to draw close to.