Why I'm Premil
- Thread starter Randy Kluth
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Truth7t7
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But that is what I said. You were the one who brought up Rev. 23 in our communication, not me.
No, believe me brother, I'm the last one to want to see any of my Amil friends judged by God for subtracting from the account of a literal 1000 years, if that's what it really meant. My concern, however, is well-founded. It isn't me who is judging, but God Himself. He is the One who has warned us, and I don't want any of my friends suffering consequences from doing precisely what He said not to do.
If I'm wrong, and He meant for you to turn the thousand years into a symbolic number, I stand corrected, and surely you'll be blessed, rather than cursed. But if I'm right and the number is to be taken literally, then it is a dangerous thing to turn a literal number into a symbolic number. I dare say that 2000 years of Amil history has been partly judged by rejecting the warnings of this book.
It's my honest concern. If you're not concerned, then why worry? This isn't threatening Christians with damnation, but since those who change God's word maliciously will be damned, there must be some negative consequence for believers to ignore the warning as well?
I personally feel it is essential to believe not just that the future Kingdom Age will last a thousand years, but even more, to believe that it will happen. In other words, the event is more important than the number of years. It is important because it properly gives history a time when God's redemptive plan will show its full glory, while man still stands in the age of redemption. It is what God always promised it could be when nations obey the Lord, and when pagan nations stop harassing them.
Yes, the Revelation is filled with symbolism. And yes, it is a difficult book to interpret. I believe God understands all these things and is merciful. I just wish to err on the side of caution. Unless the passage *demands* it be taken symbolically, I will take it literally.
Spiritual Israelite
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No, it isn't. Your concern shows your ignorance of what Revelation 22:19 means. It is not referring to someone who is sincerely trying to interpret the book of Revelation in such a way that doesn't contradict any other scripture. If such a person is wrong in their interpretation, you think God is going to condemn them? They are going to be worse off than someone who doesn't even try to interpret the book? Really? No. Revelation 22:19 is talking about people INTENTIONALLY taking away from the book which is NOT what Amils are doing.
You don't even understand what He said not to do. Again, it's talking about INTENTIONALLY taking away from the book. If it even includes doing it unintentionally, then we're all doomed because, most likely, we are all mistaken in at least part of our interpretations of the book.
I won't be cursed even if I'm wrong! Since when would someone be cursed because of making an honest attempt to interpret scripture but being mistaken in some points? That's ludicrous.
You are overly dramatic. Are you an actor? It is not dangerous to be mistaken about our understanding of the thousand years. No one is going to be cursed for being mistaken in their interpretation of Revelation 20 unless they purposely twist it and take away from its meaning which NONE of us here are doing. We're all trying to interpret it the best we can.
Who said I'm worried? I'm just telling you that you're misinterpreting Revelation 22:19. If you don't understand that, then so be it.
If they do it on purpose, yes. But, no one is doing that. If someone could be damned for mistakenly misinterpreting the book, then it would be better to not even try to interpret it. But, I'm sure that is not what God wants (for us to not even try to interpret it).
And why is our eternal salvation dependent on that exactly? I thought we were required to repent and put our faith in Christ. We also have to interpret Revelation 20 correctly in order to be saved? That's how you're coming across here.
Difficult, and, yet, if we don't interpret it all correctly then we are damned. That is what you are coming across as saying. And that would mean we're all damned and the ones who haven't even tried interpreting it will be the only ones who are still saved.
Well, good for you. There is nothing in the text itself which demands that we take that approach, though.
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Some have been going back and forth about the so called 23rd chapter of Revelation, but what is the substance of the argument?
Unless symbols are specified in the text, and the meaning given, such an interpretation simply lacks Biblical authority.
Much love!
Spiritual Israelite
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In Revelation 19 it refers to Jesus slaying people with a sword that comes out of His mouth. It doesn't tell us that the sword is a symbol. So, this means we should assume that when Jesus returns there will be a literal sword coming out of His mouth that He somehow will use to slay a multitude of people on the earth?
The Millennium is the fulfillment of what God has promised Israel - the rule over the nations righteously. And this we see in Micah 4.
As to the Body of Christ we are ruling and reigning with the Lord in the third heaven.
As to the Body of Christ we are ruling and reigning with the Lord in the third heaven.
Spiritual Israelite
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Oh I can see how the number 1000 could be taken symbolically, given the fact so much in terms of timelines are spoken against in the Scriptures. "Times and seasons are in the domain of God."
However, given the warning not to tamper with the words of the Revelation, I'm nervous about taking away from an explicit statement without clear indication it is not being literal. The most telling thing for me is the fact that earth's mortal population is likely to continue on after Jesus' Coming, since we are told repeatedly in the OT Prophets that Israel will ultimately recover, "never to be destroyed again."
When the number 144,000 is given in the same book of Revelation, and there are equal numbers of 12,000 in each tribe, I go in the opposite direction, viewing it as symbolic, like Amils would. But in this case, there is more reason to assume the numbers given are to be taken symbolically, since it is an apparent reference to Eze 40-48, which was clearly a vision. And since Israel's future hope did not lay in a literal temple, as Ezekiel envisioned, we must conclude that it was to be taken symbolically.
Not only that, but a reference to 12 tribes is not feasible, taken literally, since the tribal organization of Israel ceased thousands of years ago, and cannot be recovered. On the other hand, it's looking more likely that there could be a literal 1000 years of history to fulfil a 7th "day" Millennium, it being that there has been 6000 years of human history up until now. And the idea of the Millennial Day theory has been around longer than Christianity itself.
My thoughts, anyway....
That's like someone committing adultery on his wife and then saying, "I didn't *intentionally* wish to commit adultery on her!" If you change the meaning of the book of Revelation you can always say, "I think this," or "I think that." But if you say, "I know this changes the meaning, because I'm sure it was meant to be taken symbolically," then you're out on a limb cutting the limb off you're hanging onto.
I agree--it is completely within our rights to speculate, as long as we say we're speculating. The minute we claim we are not speculating, and still change the words or their meaning, we are intentionally changing the words from what they would normally mean.
No, that's not how I'm coming across here. I said that it damns some people, and that's exactly what is said. And I said that if some people are damned for changing the words, then there must be some negative consequences for those who change the words' meaning carelessly.
I know you're just trying to interpret things the best you know how. But you don't come across with humility in that way, which would be expected if there is a curse on changing words. But I agree with you--the curse is largely for those who maliciously change the meaning. Again, this is being told to the Church, so that we also should be careful in how we try to interpret words if it changes the literal meaning.
It's a tough warning, and I don't think it will take away our salvation if we err. However, I share this because this is how the warning affects *me.* I don't care if you're not bothered. It affects me that way, and naturally, I'm concerned if it could do harm to my brothers and sisters, as well. Your life is yours to do with as you please.
I like this. The only thing I would disagree with, and it's minor, is that the 7 years is only a 3.5 years, according to Dan 7. And it is 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign, but not the 70th Week of Daniel, in my humble opinion.
RLT63
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Truth7t7
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Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?
"Deceive The Nations" To Battle
The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming
If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign
Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?
Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.
Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle
(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event
(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Scripture addresses error with simplicity.
The devil roams about like a roaring lion . . .
He roams about. He is not bound.
Much love!
Davy
Well-Known Member
That's a strange reaction to what Randy said, because I understood him clearly in what he said about the Revelation 20 revealing in simplicity that it can 'only' happen at Christ's future return and thereafter. And it's not at all difficult to grasp that in that Scripture. And the Old Testament prophets back those future events up also. Zechariah 14 reveals Christ reigning on earth over all nations, literally, and requiring all nations to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship, or there will be no rains upon their lands. It even reveals the return of God's River in Zechariah 14, which is another testimony of the future of Revelation 21.
What is clearly 'wrong' is men's false tradition of Amillennialism that tries to talk down anyone who proclaims the Revelation Scriptures as it is actually written and understood in context of the rest of The Bible.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Correct. Apostle Peter revealed in 1 Peter 5:8 that Satan as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour. That is obviously meant for the 'present world time', not the world to come when Jesus returns.
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