Why I'm Premil

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's Not My Opinion, It's God's Words Before Your Eyes That Are A "Fact"

Equating your OPINIONS with facts really illustrates your low level of maturity. It's too bad that you can't be more humble and mature than this. No matter how strongly you feel that your OPINION of what the passage means is correct, it's still just your OPINION. For you to not even acknowledge that tells me that you have an arrogance problem that you need to repent of.

It's baffling to me as to how you are even an Amil when you have some beliefs that are more typical of what pre-trib dispensationalists believe. It seems that you have a very strong tendency to interpret everything very literally, so it's a wonder to me that you are able to recognize that the thousand years are not meant to be interpreted literally.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So are the nations `learning war no more?`

Can you please address what I said in my post first? Then I will address your question.

 

[Truth7t7]

It's Not My Opinion, It's God's Words Before Your Eyes That Are A "Fact"

The (Two Witnesses) Will Have Literal Physical Bodies That Die, And Will Lay In A Literal Street In This Literal World, As A Literal World Watches In Celebration Of Their Death

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 11:7-12KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Equating your OPINIONS with facts really illustrates your low level of maturity. It's too bad that you can't be more humble and mature than this. No matter how strongly you feel that your OPINION of what the passage means is correct, it's still just your OPINION. For you to not even acknowledge that tells me that you have an arrogance problem that you need to repent of.

It's baffling to me as to how you are even an Amil when you have some beliefs that are more typical of what pre-trib dispensationalists believe. It seems that you have a very strong tendency to interpret everything very literally, so it's a wonder to me that you are able to recognize that the thousand years are not meant to be interpreted literally.

Please explain the words below "Their Dead Bodies"?

Revelation 11:7-12KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[Marilyn C]

That is talking about "the latter days" or as some translations put it "the last days". When are the last days, Marilyn? In the future during a supposed "Millennium" as you claim? No.

Please read the following which shows us when the latter/last days are. This is what Peter said in response to some people claiming that those who were filled with the Holy Spirit must be drunk on the day of Pentecost long ago:

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

According to Peter the last days had begun already long ago on the day of Pentecost and they continue on while people call on the name of the Lord and are saved. in 2 Peter 3:3-4 he indicated that the last days lead up to the return of Christ. So, your claim that Micah 4:1-3, which occurs during the latter/last days, is about a future Millennium can't possibly be true since the latter/last days cover the New Testament time period up until the return of Christ. You are not allowing scripture to interpret scripture for you, which is a big mistake on your part.

I thought I had answered. So, some detail I think you want.

Yes Peter is talking about the last days and as my diagram shows it is from Jesus sending His Holy Spirit till the great white throne. And that includes quite a lot.

 

[Marilyn C]

I like this.

Where did you learn the eternal purposes?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Please explain the words below "Their Dead Bodies"?

Revelation 11:7-12KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Since "the two witnesses" is a figurative term then the entire description of them is figurative as well, including a reference to their dead bodies and them standing upon their feet and such. This is similar to how the beast is sometimes described in a similar way to a man, and yet, it is not a man unless you think it's referring to a man that is at least around 2,000 years old by now (Rev 17:8 indicates that the beast existed even before the book of Revelation was written). So, just because a figurative entity is described as doing things that individual human beings do does not suddenly make that figurative entity literal.

This type of thing is true regarding the binding of Satan as well. It describes him as being a dragon that is bound with a chain in a prison. Is any of that literal? Does it make it a literal, physical binding just because it talks about it in terms of him being bound with a chain in a prison? No. As an Amil, you know that's not the case. Yet, his binding is described in that way. Similarly, the figurative two witnesses are described as having dead bodies and lying in the street and such, but that's all figurative text representing the global attack on the church in an effort to destroy it that is also written about in passages like Revelation 20:7-9. The two witnesses being caught up to the Lord is a figurative representation of the catching up (rapture) of the church when Christ returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I thought I had answered.

Your only direct response to my post #69 was this:

So are the nations `learning war no more?`

That's it. You didn't address anything I said in my post. You just responded with a question.

So, some detail I think you want.

Of course. Isn't it only fair for you to address what I said first before I address your question? I believe so.

Yes Peter is talking about the last days and as my diagram shows it is from Jesus sending His Holy Spirit till the great white throne. And that includes quite a lot.

View attachment 26221

This does not address what I said, it only addresses what you believe. Please address what I said. What are your thoughts on what I said? Once you do that then I will answer the question you asked in post #80. This is how discussions work.

 

[Marilyn C]

That is talking about "the latter days" or as some translations put it "the last days". When are the last days, Marilyn? In the future during a supposed "Millennium" as you claim? No.

Please read the following which shows us when the latter/last days are. This is what Peter said in response to some people claiming that those who were filled with the Holy Spirit must be drunk on the day of Pentecost long ago:

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

According to Peter the last days had begun already long ago on the day of Pentecost and they continue on while people call on the name of the Lord and are saved. in 2 Peter 3:3-4 he indicated that the last days lead up to the return of Christ. So, your claim that Micah 4:1-3, which occurs during the latter/last days, is about a future Millennium can't possibly be true since the latter/last days cover the New Testament time period up until the return of Christ. You are not allowing scripture to interpret scripture for you, which is a big mistake on your part.

You are assuming that the `last days ` just lead up to Christ`s return, whereas Peter tells us that it includes everything from the Day of the Lord coming as a thief right through the trib, the millennium and on to the new heavens and new earth. Note: `in which the heavens will pass away...etc` and that is IN the Day of the Lord. (2 Peter 3: 10)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Goodness gracious. Are you even trying to see my point? Your analogy here doesn't fit with my point AT ALL. if someone commits adultery, they know what they are doing. If someone mistakenly misinterprets the book of Revelation, they don't realize it. How are those two things the same when one is on purpose and the other isn't? Please read my post again because you are clearly missing my point.

Well, brother, you clearly missed *my point!* I was disagreeing with you. A person doesn't commit adultery accidentally. A person does not interpret something *dogmatically* accidentally. You have to be pretty sure of yourself to make an eschatological belief *dogmatic.*

Now, if you're just saying, "it's my opinion that the Millennium is symbolic," then that's leaving a place for God to decide whether we're crossing the line or not. But if you're *sure* that the Millennium is symbolic, then you're not accidentally forming an opinion--you're making a matter of creed.

This is the biggest problem I've had with this subject. People are selling their houses, their cars, and their family as a bet on Amil.
Ok, that was a "slight" exaggeration!

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I'm glad that I do not know some of you in real life. You may say the same of me.

Believe it or not YOUR REAL SELF does come thru even in anonymity of the internet.

It is good to be steadfast in your beliefs.
It is good to be ready always to give an answer.

It is NOT good to be arrogant and puffed up thinking YOU know something.
It is not good to be condescending to the household of faith.

Please see the appropriate departments if you need to make changes about your attitudes.
1. Jesus- chief cornerstone
Redemption from sin, forgiveness.
2. Holy Spirit- transformer with power..

We have additional departments that are self service. Please avail yourself as needed.
A. Prayer
B. Study
C. Hymns & Psalms
D. Fellowship

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why don`t you Randy?

Why don't I join two sets of 3.5 years together to form 7 years? It's because of the way I interpret what the Bible says. The Holy Spirit has given us the Bible, and He knows how to communicate with us reliably.

What I've discovered is that truth is given sort of in layers. A foundation, a 2nd floor, a 3rd floor--all are based on the same foundation. Dan 7 became the foundation for the doctrine of Antichrist and it was determined to be strictly a 3.5 year period. Not 7 years. The Week is imported by others from Dan 9, which had to do with the earthly ministry of Christ and with the fall of Jerusalem at that time.

So a Week is out. The 7 years is out. There is no other basis for a 7 years of Antichristian rule. If Dan 7 is the foundation for NT theology on the Antichrist, then we are left with strictly a 3.5 years period of time. This is not the "Great Tribulation." Rather, this is the Reign of Antichrist, which is a very short period of time, comparable to the time of Antiochus 4's reign of terror.

So when we read of the 3.5 years in the book of Revelation, it all focuses back on Dan 7, and on the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign. The time period is given in 3 different ways, as 3.5 years, as 42 months, and as 1260 days. The 1260 days is contrasting with the 1290 days of Antiochus 4, so that we don't get confused. The 42 months is given for whatever reason, perhaps for the same reason it is given as days, as well. This is a period that is intense month by month and day by day.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It's clear that we never will agree on this. Both of us have our minds made up about this. That is obvious.

My mind is settled for the moment. It is tentative. I'm not so arrogant as to think I have all of the same information God has. The reason I continue to believe in the literal interpretation of Rev 20 is, as I said, due to the warning about tampering with the words. It has not been proven to me that the "thousand years" is necessarily symbolic. When you do that, I'm open to change my mind.

You know nothing about me personally, so why do you always think you can judge everyone just by what they say on a forum like this?

Who are you to say I can't or shouldn't discern certain things if my motive is to help people get free of their carnal tendencies? I want to end that with myself, as well. There are some things as important as biblical doctrine, and it is all about living in the Spirit, and not falling into carnal bickering.

I acknowledge that I need to work on that and just try to ignore their insults.

That's very mature of you to say that. We all need to work on our "harsh" responses to provocative statements about us.

I see no reason why the text itself has to somehow indicate that it's symbolic in order for it to be symbolic. Tell me, does the following verse specifiy that the word "thousand" is not being used literally?

Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

If you already know everything, and don't like me to tell you things you already know, why do you ask? I don't get it. You bring up some points, and I explain that those points can looked at equally in opposite ways, while at the same time agreeing on the same Scriptures. I found that interesting. You find that provocative????

Obviously, the above Scripture is a known type of saying. What's fit for something small can be used to express the same in much larger terms. "I know the script" means "I know the whole story." And "I know the way it works" means "I'm not surprised by how things will turn out." It's a saying.

Rev 20 is *not* a saying. If God said, "I have your number" I would not conclude that He has our phone number. It means He understands everything about us. But if He says, "the reign of my Son will last exactly 1000 years," who am I to doubt Him?

That is my desire as well. I'm tired of all the childish insults thrown around here. It's constant. I am going to try to not be part of that anymore.

Good at you. It's much more fun to discuss things, even disagree over things, with someone who is respectful and tries to maintain our commonality in Christ at the same time. That's also what I'm trying to do.

None of us has this virtue apart from Christ, and we all have equal access to him. Sorry this is obvious, but that's because we all know the truth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Where did you learn the eternal purposes?

I don't know what you mean?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Typical immature response from you.

You had said this: So, can you acknowledge that you were wrong when you said this since it clearly is not true? I gave an example where it isn't true with the reference to the sword coming out of Christ's mouth. Is that explained to be a symbol? No, it isn't. So, according to what you had said that would mean it must be referring to a literal sword. But, that is clearly not the case. So, your statement is clearly false.

Brother, a sword coming out of someone's mouth is obviously symbolic of the tongue speaking judgment, or something like that. It doesn't require explanation that it is symbolic since it is *self-evident.* A thousand year Millennium is *not* self-evidently symbolic! I think that's the point being made? Self-evident symbolism is also a form of explicit symbolism.

 

[Truth7t7]

Since "the two witnesses" is a figurative term then the entire description of them is figurative as well, including a reference to their dead bodies and them standing upon their feet and such. This is similar to how the beast is sometimes described in a similar way to a man, and yet, it is not a man unless you think it's referring to a man that is at least around 2,000 years old by now (Rev 17:8 indicates that the beast existed even before the book of Revelation was written). So, just because a figurative entity is described as doing things that individual human beings do does not suddenly make that figurative entity literal.

This type of thing is true regarding the binding of Satan as well. It describes him as being a dragon that is bound with a chain in a prison. Is any of that literal? Does it make it a literal, physical binding just because it talks about it in terms of him being bound with a chain in a prison? No. As an Amil, you know that's not the case. Yet, his binding is described in that way. Similarly, the figurative two witnesses are described as having dead bodies and lying in the street and such, but that's all figurative text representing the global attack on the church in an effort to destroy it that is also written about in passages like Revelation 20:7-9. The two witnesses being caught up to the Lord is a figurative representation of the catching up (rapture) of the church when Christ returns.

You have stated your belief and I strongly disagree

You have removed a literal event through symbolic allegory in the literal, physical, (Two Witnesses), same as your 2,000+ year gap between your "Preterist" 66-70AD (Great Tribulation) and (Second Coming Of Jesus Christ) with a claim of its a 2,000 year gap in "Fulfilling Of The Gentiles" A Fairy Tale!

Your belief and teaching is In the same fashion of pre-tribbers in their secret rapture and Millennialist in their Kingdom on earth, no different at bending and twisting scripture to suit ones teaching and belief

Your "Preterist" 66-70AD eschatology in fulfillment "Fails", add to that your symbolic allegory of Revelation Chapter 11 below in the (Two Witnesses)

The (Two Witnesses) Will Have Literal Physical Bodies That Die, And Will Lay In A Literal Street In This Literal World, As A Literal World Watches In Celebration Of Their Death

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 11:7-12KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[Davy]

A day is as a thousand years is a conceptual simile. "Is as" shows this is simile, and "the Lord is not slow as some count slowness" shows this simile concerns our characterization of the passage of time. And that's just how language is normally used.

But I do believe that 2 Peter 3:8 is meant literally, otherwise Peter would not have said to not be ignorant of it...

2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
KJV

The man Adam lived 930 years, so he didn't quite make it a 1,000 years. And God told him that Adam would die in the day that he ate from the forbidden tree. Adam did not die the very day he ate from the tree in the midst of the garden, but instead died within the 1,000 years timeframe for God's reckoning of a day.

Also, the future Millennium of Christ's literal reign on earth, the "thousand years" of Revelation 20, that also is called the "day of Christ" by Apostle Paul (Philippians 1:10; Philippians 2:16; and 2 Thessalonians 2:2). It is also referred to the "day of the Lord" in Scripture, meaning the events that begin Christ's future thousand years reign starts with the events declared on the "day of the Lord".

 

[Davy]

I thought I had answered. So, some detail I think you want.

Yes Peter is talking about the last days and as my diagram shows it is from Jesus sending His Holy Spirit till the great white throne. And that includes quite a lot.

View attachment 26221

Sorry, but that timeline is very misleading.

Apostle Paul placed the "day of Christ" to be Christ's future "thousand years" reign that begins at His future return on the last day of this present world (see Philippians 1:10; Philippians 2:16; and 2 Thessalonians 2:2).

The first day of Christ's future reign is the first day of the "day of the Lord" and starts on the last day of this present world, because that "day of Christ" is meant as that 'day' of a thousand years per 2 Peter 3:8, which is meant literally.

The 3.5 years of Daniel 7:25 (or "time and times and the dividing of time"), is equal to the 42 months of the dragon's reign of Revelation 13, and the period the Gentiles tread the holy city per Revelation 11, which all those times are for the coming period of "great tribulation" at the end of this present world.

The only time difference to note with that is what we are told in Revelation 11 & 13, because the 42 months is based on a Lunar timing, but the 1360 days God's two witnesses are to prophesy is given according Solar timing. A solar year is just a little bit longer than a lunar year, some say by about 10 or 11 days.

Here is the timeline for the end that I get from God's Word:

1. the "one week" of Daniel 9:27 is the final 'week' in the Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy. It is the 70th week, and is for the very end of this world. It is equal to period of 7 years, just like the previous symbolic 'weeks' in the prophecy are.

2. That final "one week" is divided into 2 parts per that Daniel 9:27 verse. That means 2 periods of 3.5 years each.

3. The 1st 3.5 years period involves the coming of the false Messiah and the Jews in Jerusalem building their 3rd temple, and the old covenant worship started up again, with sacrifices. This must... occur to fulfill the prophecy of the false Messiah later ending those sacrifices and instead placing the "abomination of desolation" in Jerusalem.

4. In the middle of the "one week", the false Messiah will end sacrifices in Jerusalem, and instead place the "abomination of desolation" idol in demanding that all worship him in place of God, or all that is called God, or even all things that are worshiped (this per 2 Thessalonians 2). This period is the latter 3.5 years of the symbolic "one week", and will end with Christ's future return on the last day of this present world.

 

[marks]

We read Moses this morning, "A thousand years is as yesterday, or as a watch in the night". Like an evening of TV . . .

So teach us to number our days, that we may know wisdom . . .

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

When the number 144,000 is given in the same book of Revelation, and there are equal numbers of 12,000 in each tribe, I go in the opposite direction, viewing it as symbolic, like Amils would. But in this case, there is more reason to assume the numbers given are to be taken symbolically, since it is an apparent reference to Eze 40-48, which was clearly a vision. And since Israel's future hope did not lay in a literal temple, as Ezekiel envisioned, we must conclude that it was to be taken symbolically.

There were 14 tribes and 14 disciples, but how does that make the #12 suspicious of being literal. There is a perfectly normal explanation why there are 14 disciples and 14 tribes. Yet God's Will is still 12 acknowledged tribes and disciples.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are assuming that the `last days ` just lead up to Christ`s return, whereas Peter tells us that it includes everything from the Day of the Lord coming as a thief right through the trib, the millennium and on to the new heavens and new earth. Note: `in which the heavens will pass away...etc` and that is IN the Day of the Lord. (2 Peter 3: 10)

Where does Peter say anything about a millennium after Christ's return? He doesn't. You are adding that to the text.

The text talks about the heavens and earth being burned up as a result of the day of the Lord coming unexpectedly like a thief in the night. So, when do you believe the heavens and earth will be burned up? At what point exactly do you think the day of the Lord comes unexpectedly like a thief in the night? You can't call a long period of time something that comes unexpectedly like a thief in the night. That makes no sense.

Also, in 2 Peter 3:13, Peter indicated that we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming. If the new heavens and new earth weren't ushered in until 1000+ years after His second coming, then how would 2 Peter 3:13 make any sense?